TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

[księżycowy]

"A Chsesitsobhoi"

Wouldn't that be /ˈxʃeʃɪtsəwɪ/
Or something like that?

[dEhiN]

I can't say I've seen TYIG, but if I had to guess it probably teaches CO.

You might be able to use it along side Buntús, if you decide to go that way. If I remember what kevin said correctly, Buntús teaches CO with an Ulster flare.

If you settle on the old TYI, it's better to not get muddied up with CO until you have a good grasp on Munster. So I definitely advise doing TYIG afterward (or before) and knowing there will be differences.

Ok, thanks for the tip. I didn't realize there were significant differences between the grammar of the dialects! If I get a chance tonight or tomorrow (and I remember!), I'll peruse through the intro pages of TYIG to see what they say.

Go raibh maith agaibh linguoboy, księżycowy and kevin for explaining the differences between agaibh and agat, pronunciation details, and listing the paradigm for "have".

If I'm not mistaken, you'd use the vocative particle <a> before our names there. But I wouldn't expect you to know that yet.

Good to know; arigatou*! Does Irish use the vocative particle <a> before names in general? I know in Portuguese, especially in formal Portuguese, the definite article is used before names, particularly when it's a 3rd person reference. Although I think some people also use it for 2nd person reference.

*I don't quite remember now, but is it more common to leave out the u when just saying arigatou? What about when writing it in Hiragana? From what I recall, isn't it the o only a long sound when saying arigatou gozaimasu?

That was what I was thinking, too, and then I guess "kevin" in Irish would also be "a Chaoimhín."

How would you pronounce that? Would the <a> and first <i>, or perhaps only the first <i>, be there only for orthographical conventions and so therefore not pronounced?

[księżycowy]

Ok, thanks for the tip. I didn't realize there were significant differences between the grammar of the dialects! If I get a chance tonight or tomorrow (and I remember!), I'll peruse through the intro pages of TYIG to see what they say.

I wouldn't necessarily say that they are significant differences, but there are differences. kevin or linguoboy could probably tell you better than I how different things are, as I've been mainly focusing on Munster.

Good to know; arigatou*! Does Irish use the vocative particle <a> before names in general?

Not always. I would say:
Dia dhuit, a Chaoimhín! Conás tánn tú?

But I would also say:
Tá cota mór ag Caoimhín.

*I don't quite remember now, but is it more common to leave out the u when just saying arigatou? What about when writing it in Hiragana? From what I recall, isn't it the o only a long sound when saying arigatou gozaimasu?

It is indeed a long o. It's written "tou" in Hiragana: ありがとう.

How would you pronounce that? Would the <a> and first <i>, or perhaps only the first <i>, be there only for orthographical conventions and so therefore not pronounced?

Chaoimhín is pronounced /xiːˈv´iːn´/ in Munster (and apparently Connacht as well). Looks like Ulster is pretty much the same, only with a short first vowel.
Non-lenited it would be Caoimhín /kiːˈv´iːn´/.

[vijayjohn]

In Munster. Elsewhere I think it would be /ˈxiːv´iːn´/, unless Wiktionary is just wrong.

I don't quite remember now, but is it more common to leave out the u when just saying arigatou? What about when writing it in Hiragana? From what I recall, isn't it the o only a long sound when saying arigatou gozaimasu?

AFAIK, <ou> is just another way of writing <ō>, closer to the way it's written in Japanese but more different from the way it's actually pronounced, and same thing with <ei> vs. <ē>.

[księżycowy]

In Munster. Elsewhere I think it would be /ˈxiːv´iːn´/, unless Wiktionary is just wrong.

Right, I didn't check stress. But it's still pronounced basically the same otherwise.

AFAIK, <ou> is just another way of writing <ō>, closer to the way it's written in Japanese but more different from the way it's actually pronounced, and same thing with <ei> vs. <ē>.

I personally prefer to spell them <ou> and <ei> in romaji.

[vijayjohn]

Good to know; arigatou*! Does Irish use the vocative particle <a> before names in general?

Not always. I would say:
Dia dhuit, a Chaoimhín! Conás tánn tú?

But I would also say:
Tá cota mór ag Caoimhín.

That's just not a context where the name is in the vocative, though, right? I thought he meant in contexts where it was.

[kevin]

I wouldn't necessarily say that they are significant differences, but there are differences. kevin or linguoboy could probably tell you better than I how different things are, as I've been mainly focusing on Munster.

Well, you're driving me crazy with your synthetic verb forms. And you apply the wrong mutations after the dative article. Other than that, not much. I think most of the trouble I have with Munster Irish is vocabulary - words pronounced slightly different in the dialect, and with dialectal spelling you can't find them in the dictionary any more.

Dia dhuit, a Chaoimhín! Conás tánn tú?

Go maith, go rabh maith agat. Caidé mar tá tú féin?

Chaoimhín is pronounced /xiːˈv´iːn´/ in Munster (and apparently Connacht as well). Looks like Ulster is pretty much the same, only with a short first vowel.

Short second vowel if anything. And stress on the first syllable. Non-initial stress is so Munster.

[księżycowy]

That's just not a context where the name is in the vocative, though, right? I thought he meant in contexts where it was.

I read him as asking if it was always used with names. He started talking about Portuguese, which I know nothing about, so maybe I'm wrong.

Well, you're driving me crazy with your synthetic verb forms.

Pffft, you have it easy with analytical forms, so no complaining!

And you apply the wrong mutations after the dative article.

"Wrong"!? How dare you call them wrong!

and with dialectal spelling you can't find them in the dictionary any more.

I haven't had much trouble yet. Then again I have the Cork Irish dictionary in addition to using Teanglann. But I still tend to find things in Teanglann.

Go maith, go rabh maith agat. Caidé mar tá tú féin?

Táim go maith.

There's a perfect example of some of the differences right there.

Short second vowel if anything. And stress on the first syllable. Non-initial stress is so Munster.

Could have sworn Wikipedia said the first vowel was short. *shrug*

[vijayjohn]

That's just not a context where the name is in the vocative, though, right? I thought he meant in contexts where it was.

I read him as asking if it was always used with names. He started talking about Portuguese, which I know nothing about, so maybe I'm wrong.

He was saying Portuguese usually uses the definite article in non-vocative contexts, though some speakers use it in a vocative one, too. The Irish particle isn't a definite article, of course, but is similar in that it appears before names in certain contexts. (Although it can also appear before common nouns).

[księżycowy]

He was saying Portuguese usually uses the definite article in non-vocative contexts, though some speakers use it in a vocative one, too.

And he was connecting the two in some way, which I guess is leading to the confusion now.

[vijayjohn]

He was saying Portuguese usually uses the definite article in non-vocative contexts, though some speakers use it in a vocative one, too.

And he was connecting the two in some way, which I guess is leading to the confusion now.

Because it's:

similar in that it appears before names in certain contexts.

[księżycowy]

Yes, but is that what dEhiN meant?

[Luís]

[ I know in Portuguese, especially in formal Portuguese, the definite article is used before names, particularly when it's a 3rd person reference.

I'd say it's the other way around

The more formal the situation the less likely you are to use the articles*. For instance, you'll hardly ever see them in newspaper articles: "Trump disse...", "Macron propôs...", "João Silva é carpinteiro", etc.

On the other hand, if you're talking with your friends about something Trump did today, you'll likely say "O Trump hoje disse..."

* and of course, in some regions of Brazil, you never use them

Although I think some people also use it for 2nd person reference.

He was saying Portuguese usually uses the definite article in non-vocative contexts, though some speakers use it in a vocative one, too

I can't imagine a situation where that would be possible Maybe you guys are confusing "o" with "ô" ?

[vijayjohn]

Lol idk what dEhiN was thinking of specifically. I was just paraphrasing what he said.

[księżycowy]

But dEhiN never said that.

[vijayjohn]

Huh? Yeah, he did.

Although I think some people also use it for 2nd person reference.

Well, I mean, he did say "I think," but still.

I'm confusing.

[księżycowy]

But he didn't say this:

similar in that it appears before names in certain contexts.

Did he?

[vijayjohn]

No, that he didn't say.

[księżycowy]

Damn it, Vijay! This is so confusing!

Where's dEhiN when you need him!?

[vijayjohn]

Oh! The suspense! Does dEhiN understand vocative particles in Irish or not? Will he or won't he??