TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

[dEhiN]

Aw.... you're learning CO and not Munster....

Well, I just started going through the BnG pdf, so I figured I'll keep going through it for now. You know me - I have a hard time seeing one resource through to the end, so there's a good chance I'll switch it up at some point.

Also, what Peace Corps material are you using for Albanian?

I thought there was only one PC course per language? I found it off a website that contained the old DLI, FSI, and PC materials. (I actually had downloaded the pdf + audio in the past off another website that contained the same materials). If you want, I can PM you a link and/or the pdf.

(Do Japanese! Do it!)

Right now I find my motivation for Japanese and Korean waxes/wanes depending on what I'm watching on Netflix. I've started, for Japanese, the anime Inuyasha and Magi: The Adventure of Sinbad, and for Korean, Strong Girl Bong-Soon and Black.

Learners do this all the time, myself probably included.

Yeah, that pretty much describes Ciarán's accent. Over the course of his education, he was taught by speakers from all three major dialect groups so how he pronounces a particular word may depend on who he learned if off of. I know for a while there he was exploring reconstructed Leinster pronunciation in his search for a distinctive form of Irish that was true to his Dublin roots, but I'm not sure where that led to.

What about your accent? Has yours been influenced mainly by one dialect or is it a mishmash? Also, I think this mixing of accents is common to any language you're not a native in! I do it all the time in Brazilian Portuguese, though I generally try to stick to a general Northeast accent. For French and Spanish, I'm not even sure what my accent sounds like; I've listened to and interacted with speakers from so many different parts of the francophone and hispanophone worlds that I probably even say the same word 2 or more different ways in the same speech utterance!

On the subject of the Irish language in NI, this was a good watch: Former Presbyterian minister turned radio broadcaster from North Belfast challenges himself to learn Irish well enough to co-present a programme in it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ0kp5P3ydk

Go raibh maith agat! (I have no idea how to pronounce that, but at least I know what it means! )

By the way, I have two questions for you guys: one is about Korean pronunciation, and the other about a possible cognate between Korean and Japanese.

1) For some Korean accents, does ㅇ nasalize a preceding vowel? I learned to pronounce that letter (syllable-finally) as /ŋ/, but in the show Strong Girl Bong-soon where Bong-soon is the name of the titular character, I'm pretty sure some of the actors/actresses say something more like /bõ sun/ instead of /boŋ sun/. Or perhaps they are saying a light velar nasal as well as nasalizing the /o/?

2) I've noticed in both Korean dramas I'm watching the use of an interjection along the lines of /aʃ/ or maybe sometimes it's said as /ɨʃ/ (though the vowel sound is generally weak in comparison to the sibilant). The translation is usually given as "oh gosh" or "ahh" or something similar. And in the anime I'm watching I've also noticed what seems to be an interjection along the lines of /joʃ/, which I think translates to the same thing, or at least seems to be uttered in similar environments. Are these two cognates somehow? Am I mishearing or misinterpreting both utterances?

[vijayjohn]

Go raibh maith agat! (I have no idea how to pronounce that, but at least I know what it means! )

Something like /ɡəɾˠəˈmˠahəɡət̪ˠ/ or /ɡəɾˠəmˠəˈhaɡət̪ˠ/. In Cois Fharraige, /ɡəɾˠəˈma.ad̪ˠ/.

For some Korean accents, does ㅇ nasalize a preceding vowel?

Never heard this explicitly stated about any Korean accent so far at least

2) I've noticed in both Korean dramas I'm watching the use of an interjection along the lines of /aʃ/ or maybe sometimes it's said as /ɨʃ/ (though the vowel sound is generally weak in comparison to the sibilant). The translation is usually given as "oh gosh" or "ahh" or something similar. And in the anime I'm watching I've also noticed what seems to be an interjection along the lines of /joʃ/, which I think translates to the same thing, or at least seems to be uttered in similar environments. Are these two cognates somehow? Am I mishearing or misinterpreting both utterances?

よし in Japanese means 'all right!' or 'okay!'. Kind of sounds like the opposite of what you're describing.

[dEhiN]

Go raibh maith agat! (I have no idea how to pronounce that, but at least I know what it means! )

Something like /ɡəɾˠəˈmˠahəɡət̪ˠ/ or /ɡəɾˠəmˠəˈhaɡət̪ˠ/. In Cois Fharraige, /ɡəɾˠəˈma.ad̪ˠ/.

*sees all those superscript 'ˠ', gets scared and rethinks learning Irish*

For some Korean accents, does ㅇ nasalize a preceding vowel?

Never heard this explicitly stated about any Korean accent so far at least

Then it could be the second thing I mentioned - that the velar nasal is being lightly pronounced and affecting the preceding vowel.

2) I've noticed in both Korean dramas I'm watching the use of an interjection along the lines of /aʃ/ or maybe sometimes it's said as /ɨʃ/ (though the vowel sound is generally weak in comparison to the sibilant). The translation is usually given as "oh gosh" or "ahh" or something similar. And in the anime I'm watching I've also noticed what seems to be an interjection along the lines of /joʃ/, which I think translates to the same thing, or at least seems to be uttered in similar environments. Are these two cognates somehow? Am I mishearing or misinterpreting both utterances?

よし in Japanese means 'all right!' or 'okay!'. Kind of sounds like the opposite of what you're describing.

Yeah it does, and I seem to remember the Japanese interjection as having an /o/. But the next time I hear it, I'll pay closer attention.

[księżycowy]

Well, I just started going through the BnG pdf, so I figured I'll keep going through it for now. You know me - I have a hard time seeing one resource through to the end, so there's a good chance I'll switch it up at some point.

Hey, at the end of the day, I'm just glad there is another Irish learner around. I'm sure linguoboy and kevin are as well.

I thought there was only one PC course per language? I found it off a website that contained the old DLI, FSI, and PC materials. (I actually had downloaded the pdf + audio in the past off another website that contained the same materials). If you want, I can PM you a link and/or the pdf.

お願い！

Right now I find my motivation for Japanese and Korean waxes/wanes depending on what I'm watching on Netflix. I've started, for Japanese, the anime Inuyasha and Magi: The Adventure of Sinbad, and for Korean, Strong Girl Bong-Soon and Black.

Motivation be damned!

What about your accent? Has yours been influenced mainly by one dialect or is it a mishmash? Also, I think this mixing of accents is common to any language you're not a native in! I do it all the time in Brazilian Portuguese, though I generally try to stick to a general Northeast accent. For French and Spanish, I'm not even sure what my accent sounds like; I've listened to and interacted with speakers from so many different parts of the francophone and hispanophone worlds that I probably even say the same word 2 or more different ways in the same speech utterance!

I'm not linguoboy, but I suspect that his accent is like mine in that it is mostly (if not completely) influenced by one dialect. I'll shut up and let him answer though.

I see Irish, I read Munster.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=52117#p1087272

Something like /ɡəɾˠəˈmˠahəɡət̪ˠ/ or /ɡəɾˠəmˠəˈhaɡət̪ˠ/. In Cois Fharraige, /ɡəɾˠəˈma.ad̪ˠ/.

*sees all those superscript 'ˠ', gets scared and rethinks learning Irish*

It's the usual linguistic transcription for Irish broad consonants. I usually leave them out myself, as it's the slender consonants that are most trouble for English speakers. No reason to get scared.

[kevin]

Go raibh maith agat! (I have no idea how to pronounce that, but at least I know what it means! )

Something like /ɡəɾˠəˈmˠahəɡət̪ˠ/ or /ɡəɾˠəmˠəˈhaɡət̪ˠ/. In Cois Fharraige, /ɡəɾˠəˈma.ad̪ˠ/.

*sees all those superscript 'ˠ', gets scared and rethinks learning Irish*

Don't let this confuse you. In this phonemic transcription it merely denotes that it's a "broad" consonant. All Irish consonant letters (or digraphs) represent two different sounds, depending on whether they are "slender" (i.e. written next to e/i) or "broad" (i.e. next to a/o/u). The superscript ˠ/ʲ is just a common way to denote this in a phonemic transcription (even more common is to write the plain letter /x/ for broad and /x´/ for slender).

And in fact, Vijay, I think /t̪ˠ/ is a bit over the top. Shouldn't it be /tˠ/, which is realised as [t̪]?

[kevin]

I see Irish, I read Munster.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=52117#p1087272

This works as long as the only spoken Irish you ever hear is from one single source. However, when you start learning vocabulary from multiple sources in different dialects, it's sometimes hard to tell how the same word would be pronounced in "your" dialect. Obviously, you will apply the "usual" sound changes (and this is the "I see Irish, I read Munster" part), but that doesn't necessarily mean that you arrive at the pronunciation that people actually use (because the dialectal form of a word may differ in more than just that).

Anywa, dEhiN, BnG doesn't seem to include any description of the pronunciation, so this may be useful for you to use with it: http://www.ultach.dsl.pipex.com/ForLearners/UIPron.doc

[księżycowy]

I was kinda joking. But I know there are some trappings no matter the approach.

[linguoboy]

Go raibh maith agat! (I have no idea how to pronounce that, but at least I know what it means! )

Something like /ɡəɾˠəˈmˠahəɡət̪ˠ/ or /ɡəɾˠəmˠəˈhaɡət̪ˠ/. In Cois Fharraige, /ɡəɾˠəˈma.ad̪ˠ/.

In Munster, agat is [əˈgʊt̪ˠ] and maith has [ɑ].

To answer a previous question: Yeah, my accent is firmly Munster (West Muskerry, to be exact), though I may have picked up some non-Munster forms and lexical items through reading so much CO and Connacht Irish.

[księżycowy]

Out of curiosity, linguoboy, how do you deal with reading non-Munster Irish? Do you stick to reading it in a Munster way, or do you try to get the original pronunciation?

kevin's comments made me ask.

[linguoboy]

Out of curiosity, linguoboy, how do you deal with reading non-Munster Irish? Do you stick to reading it in a Monster way, or do you try to get the original pronunciation?

In many cases, I can't know the "original pronunciation" without looking it up. To the extent that I'm pronouncing it in my head, I guess I'm using Munster. The exception would be when something's written in very heavy dialect (such as the chapter in An béal bocht parodying Máire).

Do you hear a plummy English accent when you read Harry Potter? Or are you not really conscious of using a particular "voice"?

[księżycowy]

I thought that's what you'd say, and that's basically how I approach it too. That's what I meant before, if it wasn't clear.

[linguoboy]

I thought that's what you'd say, and that's basically how I approach it too. That's what I meant before, if it wasn't clear.

Yeah, that's how I understood "I read Munster". Depending on what I'm reading, I may even subconsciously substitute Munster forms. Like if I read "tá mé", it always becomes "táim" if I say it in my head or pronounce it aloud.

[dEhiN]

So I'm going to modify my goals for this week, even though I haven't done anything for them yet. I have been able to do some language learning related stuff, including binge watching a few episodes of Strong Girl Bong Soon, watching a few Japanese anime videos, and, of course, doing Anki every day. I'm also currently working on my translation for the Broken Translation Game. I finished reading through and understanding the Portuguese version I was sent, which was was very helpful in terms of language learning, since I learned some new vocabulary.

But coming back to goals, I decided to drop Seneca and start learning Greenlandic. I also want to review Hangeul so that I can start going through my Korean Anki deck. And, after giving it some thought, I've decided not to push myself to keep adding new vocabulary from my language notebook(s) to Anki. I do want to add them eventually, but for now I'm liking just going through Anki, and the feel of making headway with the unlearned Anki cards. I'm not going to add any goals for Greenlandic right now, though I'll try to look through some resources and decide on one to start with. I'm also dropping my goals for Albanian and Tamil. Because I've been struggling with depression more since the start of October, I realize it's necessary and good for me to accept the limitations I'm facing in regard to weekly energy and motivation, and as a result, try not to set up a lot of expectations by way of language study goals.

Goals for the week of 20/11/17 - 26/11/17:

Korean

• Review Hangeul using either Integrated Korean: Beginning 1 or the Memrise course [Audio] Korean Alphabet

Swedish

• Read pages xvi - xvii of Teach Yourself Complete Swedish (which is the "Pronunciation" section), listen to the audio, write out the alphabet in order, and learn the Swedish names for the alphabet

Irish

• Read pages ix - xi of Buntús na Gaeilge

[księżycowy]

I'm happy your still continuing with Irish and participating in the Powwow!

That is until you cast them both off like you did Seneca......*cries*

[vijayjohn]

And in fact, Vijay, I think /t̪ˠ/ is a bit over the top. Shouldn't it be /tˠ/, which is realised as [t̪]?

I was just using Wiktionary's transcription. It doesn't strike me as over the top, but you know more Irish than me.

[dEhiN]

That is until you cast them both off like you did Seneca......*cries*

Well what can I say? I'm a sucka for a pretty, young thing. For example, if Oirata came walking by showing a bit of skin, I might just be like "Irish who?"

[księżycowy]

やっぱり・・・・

[dEhiN]

やっぱり・・・・

What exactly does yappari mean? I've heard it plenty of times in anime bur never learnt what it meant.

[księżycowy]

It's kinda hard to track down a firm definition (at least afaik), but in this context it means something like a disappointed "I knew it....."

[dEhiN]

It's kinda hard to track down a firm definition (at least afaik), but in this context it means something like a disappointed "I knew it....."

Huh! Google Translate rendered it as "as expected". Would you say that's accurate?