TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

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Re: TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

Postby aaakknu » 2018-01-02, 11:20

dEhiN wrote:I've been getting a hankering to (re)start Tagalog, mostly because of seeing Irusia do it - it's motivating me. I have some textbook I had bought 2 years ago, and there's of course also this SEA site which Vijay has talked about before. If I do decide to take on Tagalog, I'm not going to do Indonesian alongside (like I tried back in 2014) because it'll be too confusing, even though the languages aren't that close.

Cool! Now I won't be alone! ;)

vijayjohn wrote:Tagalog (tl) siguro = Spanish (es) tal vez, quizá(s)

Tagalog (tl) siyempre = Spanish (es) claro (¡seguro! :P)

También he encontrado:
(tl) delicado = (es) peligroso.
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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby linguoboy » 2018-01-02, 15:59

dEhiN wrote:1) Should I add in the mutated forms of a noun from the get go even though I don't yet know the rules for mutation?

I would say no. The mutation rules are pretty straightforward. Of the three traditional mutations, there's only one (soft) that's widely used in the language and it's used a lot--you basically can't read a simple sentence without knowing it--so the sooner you learn it the better. And once you do, having all the forms on a flashcard will be needless detritus

dEhiN wrote:Or should I wait until I learn the rules, and then add the mutations? If I wait, then later I could even create separate cards for the mutated forms of nouns I've already learned.

Do you just enjoy creating extra work for yourself?

dEhiN wrote:2) How should I add in the gender of a noun? Since the plural forms aren't easily determined from the singular form (in the way that English mostly uses -s or Tamil uses a plural suffix), I was thinking of adding the singular and plural forms in the same note (ex. bore -- boreau / morning [sing. -- pl.]).

Welsh plural endings are actually pretty predictable, since the analogical extensions were largely semantic. But listing them would be useful in the early stages where you're still learning the patterns.

dEhiN wrote:But the problem with Welsh seems to be that there is no case inflection, there is no indefinite article, and there are 3 forms of the definite article but they are used in different situations, not based on the gender of the noun. I guess I could just add it in brackets, like I do for Romanian and Albanian (ex. bore -- boreau / morning [m. sing. -- pl.])?

Is it helpful for memorisation to write out the full form of the plural rather than simply including the suffix?

I don't see why the varying forms of the definite article should prevent you from listing it, since it would be helpful for learning both the mutations and the gender of nouns (since feminine nouns mutate after it), as well as the rules of allomorphy. Something like:

bore / y bore / -au
geneth / yr eneth / -od
llen / y llen
[f.] / -ni

The qualifier [f.] is necessary in the last case because ll and rh do not mutate after the article. The doubling of the n in llenni is orthographic (to show that the vowel is short; cf. llên "lore" [no plural, but e.g. llenor "man of letters, scholar"]); the actual plural suffix is -i. So there's more than one convention you could follow here, including writing it out in full.
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Re: TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2018-01-06, 22:47

vijayjohn wrote:Sí, pero a veces las frases que vienen del español tienen significados muy diferentes en tagalo:

Tagalog (tl) siguro = Spanish (es) tal vez, quizá(s)

Tagalog (tl) siyempre = Spanish (es) claro (¡seguro! :P)

Salamat!

księżycowy wrote:1. You know you'll end up doing all the Romance languages. :P

Maybe....

księżycowy wrote:2. You're not allowed to give up on Irish.

Um.... :whistle:

Irusia wrote:Cool! Now I won't be alone! ;)

I just started going through my Anki deck of Tagalog cards from a few years ago. I only have 26 cards, so once I go through them, I'll need to start using either the Memrise deck you're using or SEAsite.

Irusia wrote:También he encontrado:
(tl) delicado = (es) peligroso.

Salamat!

linguoboy wrote:I would say no. The mutation rules are pretty straightforward. Of the three traditional mutations, there's only one (soft) that's widely used in the language and it's used a lot--you basically can't read a simple sentence without knowing it--so the sooner you learn it the better. And once you do, having all the forms on a flashcard will be needless detritus

Ok, makes sense.

linguoboy wrote:Welsh plural endings are actually pretty predictable, since the analogical extensions were largely semantic. But listing them would be useful in the early stages where you're still learning the patterns.

Yeah, that's the same thing I'm doing with Swedish, Albanian and Romanian.

linguoboy wrote:Is it helpful for memorisation to write out the full form of the plural rather than simply including the suffix?

I don't see why the varying forms of the definite article should prevent you from listing it, since it would be helpful for learning both the mutations and the gender of nouns (since feminine nouns mutate after it), as well as the rules of allomorphy. Something like:

bore / y bore / -au
geneth / yr eneth / -od
llen / y llen
[f.] / -ni

The qualifier [f.] is necessary in the last case because ll and rh do not mutate after the article. The doubling of the n in llenni is orthographic (to show that the vowel is short; cf. llên "lore" [no plural, but e.g. llenor "man of letters, scholar"]); the actual plural suffix is -i. So there's more than one convention you could follow here, including writing it out in full.

Thanks linguoboy; I like your suggestion. For words that have a completely different plural, I can just include it, otherwise add in the plural suffix.
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-01-06, 22:59

dEhiN wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Sí, pero a veces las frases que vienen del español tienen significados muy diferentes en tagalo:

Tagalog (tl) siguro = Spanish (es) tal vez, quizá(s)

Tagalog (tl) siyempre = Spanish (es) claro (¡seguro! :P)

Salamat!

Walang anuman. :)

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Re: TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

Postby księżycowy » 2018-01-06, 23:04

So, basically you gave up on Irish already..... :doggy:

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Re: TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2018-01-06, 23:29

księżycowy wrote:So, basically you gave up on Irish already..... :doggy:

*cough cough*....

Actually, no; I just haven't found/made the time to keep at it. After reading the initial introductory pages in TYI and a bit in Buntus, I got sidetracked. I'm actually at a bit of a standstill right now with my languages. At least with the ones I recently (re)started.

I'm continuing to go through them (Korean, Albanian, Welsh, and now Tagalog) on Anki. But with Welsh, I still have some words from my notebook that I haven't added to Anki. I was waiting until linguoboy responded to me, and then since he did, I haven't been able to. For Tues - Thurs, I was busy, and then since Thurs I've been sick. So yesterday was spent just watching Netflix all day, and today has been essentially the same. In fact, yesterday I didn't even do any new cards, although today I did. All this means that I still have some Welsh vocab and a bunch of new French vocab to add to Anki.

In fact, the only thing besides Anki that I've done for my languages is binge on La Mante on Netflix. The first episode I watched in French with French subs. Then I rewatched it in French with English subs. The plan was to do that for the other 5 episodes, but my desire to see what happens won out, and I watched the rest in French with English subs.

A few days ago, I started getting a wanderlust for a Polynesian language because I found and started listening to this. I did a bit of googling and started reading the Wikipedia article for Samoan. I didn't get far, but part of me wants to take it on now!

Adding 4 languages to my repertoire is tough; I can juggle it in terms of actually learning the languages. I'm having a hard time juggling it in terms of dividing my time up. I also haven't forgotten about Irish, and I'm hesitant to officially drop it or put it on hold. Hopefully if I start to get better in the next few days, I can draw up some sort of plan to balance these 4, 5, or 6 languages.
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

Postby księżycowy » 2018-01-06, 23:46

早く良くなりますように。頑張って!

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Re: TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-01-06, 23:47

What's "Buntus"? Is it Buntús Cainte? I have this and this edition of Learning Irish.

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Re: TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2018-01-06, 23:51

księżycowy wrote:早く良くなりますように。頑張って!

ありがとう!

vijayjohn wrote:What's "Buntus"? Is it Buntús Cainte? I have this and this edition of Learning Irish.

No, it's Buntús na Gaelige.
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

Postby księżycowy » 2018-01-06, 23:56

Which you can find online here: http://people.fas.harvard.edu/~hillers/

I have those books too, Vijay-san. I still swear by Learning Irish for anyone learning Conamara Irish. I've largely forgotten about Buntús Cainte.

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Re: TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

Postby księżycowy » 2018-01-06, 23:57

dEhiN wrote:
księżycowy wrote:早く良くなりますように。頑張って!

ありがとう!

いいえ。 :)

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Re: TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-01-07, 4:21

dEhiN wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:What's "Buntus"? Is it Buntús Cainte? I have this and this edition of Learning Irish.

No, it's Buntús na Gaelige.

księżycowy wrote:Which you can find online here: http://people.fas.harvard.edu/~hillers/

Go raibh maith agaibh!
I have those books too, Vijay-san. I still swear by Learning Irish for anyone learning Conamara Irish. I've largely forgotten about Buntús Cainte.

Huh, I really liked Buntús Cainte, definitely more than Learning Irish, but maybe that's because the former was more useful for figuring out how to talk to my non-native Irish-speaking friend in grad school in Irish. :P

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Re: TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2018-01-07, 16:00

vijayjohn wrote:Go raibh maith agaibh!

Every time I see that, I can't help but think go rub might again (which of course would make no sense, so perhaps something like go rub more again or go rub matt again would make more sense :D).

Actually, speaking of that phrase, would this be a correct analysis of it?

1) <bh> is the aspirated version of <b> and is pronounced /v/
2) <th> is the aspirated version of <t> and is pronounced /t/
3) <i> before <bh,th> makes the /v,t/ slender, and is therefore not pronounced (as a vowel)
4) <o,a> are the only vowels that are pronounced, and they make <g,r,m> all broad

I know that some of you have already provided the IPA transcription for that phrase, but I want to start getting used to analysing the orthography.
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Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

Postby Michael » 2018-01-07, 16:11

Well, if go raibh maith agat sounded like “gutter MY gut” to me when I last heard it said by a native speaker, go raibh maith agaibh must be something like “gutter MY give”.
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„Çdo njeri është peng i veprave të veta.‟
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Re: TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

Postby księżycowy » 2018-01-07, 16:13

1) <bh> is the aspirated version of <b> and is pronounced /v/
Mostly right. <Bh> can be pronounced /v/ or /w/ depending on the word in question. It (much like <mh>, <dh>, and <gh>) can be "dropped" as well.
2) <th> is the aspirated version of <t> and is pronounced /t/
<th> is pronounced /h/

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Re: TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2018-01-07, 16:21

księżycowy wrote:
1) <bh> is the aspirated version of <b> and is pronounced /v/
Mostly right. <Bh> can be pronounced /v/ or /w/ depending on the word in question. It (much like <mh>, <dh>, and <gh>) can be "dropped" as well.

I take it the dropping is more of a colloquial thing, rather than a proscribed thing? What about <bh> being /v/ or /w/? Is there a rule or something that tells us when it's what? Or is that more a dialectal thing, and just varies among speakers?

księżycowy wrote:
2) <th> is the aspirated version of <t> and is pronounced /t/
<th> is pronounced /h/

Sorry, I meant to write /θ/. So it's not (what to me is) the logical aspirated version of /t/, but /h/? TYI only mentions that the aspiration change and then the orthographic changes that indicate that, but it doesn't mention the actual sounds. (Well unless it does in a later section). I think it's time I either peruse the Wikipedia article, or read through Buntús na Gaelige. :hmm:
Native: (en-ca)
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Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2018-01-07, 16:33

Time for a quick update:

I rejoined the Whatsapp Tamil group a couple of days ago. One of the Tamil girls who runs the group had spoken to me last month about possibility starting up ESL lessons with me. (This was around the time I decided to stop Tamil and I left the group.) She was going to start lessons in January, but then had to postpone them for financial reasons. So when Jan 1 came around, I reached out to her. Unfortunately she isn't ready to start them just yet, but she did invite me back to the group, saying that they missed my additions to the discussion. (Because of my linguistic knowledge, I was able to help a couple of them with pronunciation stuff, as well as explaining some grammar stuff.) However, I want to go through the classes I missed. They're all recorded and put on Youtube, and I've only missed 5-6 of them. So this week I'm going to try and go through them. The classes are newbie ones, so some of the stuff is review for me. But there's also a lot of basic vocabulary I don't know still, which is why I would estimate my level in Tamil to be A1. Plus, I get to hear an Indian Tamil pronunciation, which is fun. I did one class with them last year, and I remember comparing mentally the differences in pronunciation.

The second update is about Spanish. If any of you recall, I think like 1 or 2 years ago, I had signed up for these Spanish for Beginner courses on FutureLearn.com. I never went through them though. Then last year in the fall, I started to go through the first course (because there are a few courses on FutureLearn which I have permanent access to). I stopped partway through week 2/4. Anyway, the same courses are going to offered again this year. The second one starts on Feb 26, so I'm going to try and finish the first course before then, and then try to keep up with the courses on FutureLearn.
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

Postby księżycowy » 2018-01-07, 16:49

dEhiN wrote:I take it the dropping is more of a colloquial thing, rather than a proscribed thing? What about <bh> being /v/ or /w/? Is there a rule or something that tells us when it's what? Or is that more a dialectal thing, and just varies among speakers?
It's not colloquial, it's a result of them becoming vocalized, which often gets fused with an adjoining vowel.

<Bh> in Munster is /v/ when slender (so really /v´/) and it is /w/ when broad and under the accent. (Ó Cuív calls it /v/, but something closer to a "South English /w/") If I understand correctly, there is some variation in broad /v/ and /w/ in Munster Irish, but it seems unaccented, /v/ is dominate. Unless I misunderstand. In which case I expect Linguoboy to chime in.

Sorry, I meant to write /θ/. So it's not (what to me is) the logical aspirated version of /t/, but /h/? TYI only mentions that the aspiration change and then the orthographic changes that indicate that, but it doesn't mention the actual sounds. (Well unless it does in a later section). I think it's time I either peruse the Wikipedia article, or read through Buntús na Gaelige. :hmm:

TYI does indeed go over a lot of this on pages 7-11, including a bit about <bh>. I can't imagine this is missing from the pdf version.

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Re: TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

Postby kevin » 2018-01-07, 17:06

księżycowy wrote:<Bh> in Munster is /v/ when slender (so really /v´/) and it is /w/ when broad and under the accent. (Ó Cuív calls it /v/, but something closer to a "South English /w/") If I understand correctly, there is some variation in broad /v/ and /w/ in Munster Irish, but it seems unaccented, /v/ is dominate. Unless I misunderstand. In which case I expect Linguoboy to chime in.

I never fully understood how it works in Munster, but for the other dialects it's mostly just /v/ for slender and /w/ for broad.

Of course, the other dialects also don't really say "raibh" either. ;) There it's /ro:/ and in dialectal writing, it's often written as "rabh" with broad <bh>.

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Re: TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

Postby księżycowy » 2018-01-07, 17:14

kevin wrote:I never fully understood how it works in Munster, but for the other dialects it's mostly just /v/ for slender and /w/ for broad.

That's honestly what I was expecting for Munster, but if I read Ó Cuív correctly it's not exactly the case.

It's also interesting to note that in go raibh maith agaibh, while <bh> in raibh is not pronounced, <bh> is pronounced in agaibh /agəv´/. (Well, in Munster at least)


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