TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-12-24, 16:51

linguoboy wrote:But Irish orthography isn't a mess. It's actually ingenious both in how it covers dialect variation and how it manages to represent a plethora of phonemes (45+ for most dialects) with a minimum of characters (23, including diacriticised vowels). It's just not intuitive to English-speakers--whose sense of entitlement in these matters simply boggles the mind. It's not designed for them, but for L1-speakers of Irish (who, incidentally, I never here complaining about the Irish orthography the way Anglophones complain about English spelling).

You're not "calling a spade a spade". You're calling a spade a fucked-up garden fork because you're used to doing all your planting with a bucket trowel and a rusty icepick.

I like the metaphor! :D But in all seriousness, I retract my statement that Irish orthography is fucked up. What it really was, was that as kevin said:
Okay, so I understand that only half of the vowels is actually meant to be pronounced - but how am I supposed to figure out which half?

And perhaps TYI will go on to explain further how you get a sense of which vowels to pronounce, but the first 9 pages I've read were fairly confusing. I think it was the fact that they introduce the alphabet, then very briefly mention how to pronounce the vowels (saying that they are pronounced as in Latin - though the examples they use seem to contradict that, unless Latin vowels, especially <a> became /ə/ in certain circumstances) and consonants (basically saying they're like in English), and then go onto talk about the various intricacies of orthography. Even with those intricacies, at first they mention the broad/slender distinction, aspiration, and then eclipsis. But then they start in on vowel combinations, and to be honest, that's where I got quite confused. I would try to figure out the pronunciation based on all that I had just read, and I think every single time I got it wrong. Which is ok, but the difficulty was that I couldn't seem to see a pattern, nor quite understand the rules TYI was explaining. But all in all, if Irish orthography is regular, then I know it's just a matter of understanding it fully.
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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-12-24, 17:05

Michael wrote:The third-person pronouns in Albanian work similarly to how they do in the Romance languages, where the choice of which pronoun to "point to" an inanimate antecedent is based on the antecedent's grammatical gender, the differences being that 1) Albanian has no neuter pronoun to refer to abstract ideas, e.g. the Spanish ello, and that 2) it has no distinct distal demonstratives, like the Portuguese esse(s)/essa(s) ("that/those", close to the addressee) or aquele(s)/aquela(s) ("that/those [yonder or over there]", far from the addressee).

Huh, I never knew about Spanish ello! (Yay for learning a new word in one of your languages while you're discussing another language!) So, according to Colloquial Albanian, Unit One, there are ky/kjo that mean "this" and jkëta/këto that mean "these", while of course the 3rd person nominative pronouns can mean "that" or "those". Don't those count as distal demonstratives? Or do you mean that there's only a separate word for "this/these", but none for "that/those"?

Michael wrote:
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You're making me wanderlust for OE again! :D

Michael wrote:This is the format that you've surely noticed me use around the forum to list Albanian words.
[...]
The indefinite singular of these three cases tends to be the same as the definite nominative (except for feminine nouns) but preceded by një ("one, a(n)"), while the indefinite ablative and genitive/dative plurals are also otherwise regular.

Wow, thank you SO much for all of that! So now I understand why the definite plural suffix isn't included in the Colloquial Albanian dictionary. When you first started learning Albanian, did you only add the nominative forms for nouns to Anki, or all 5 cases? I'm thinking of only adding nominative for now, to make it a bit simpler to learn. The downside will be that I'll have to, in the future, go back through every single noun and learn the other 4 cases.

linguoboy wrote:Ça doesn't just mean "they". It's the usual impersonal subject in expressions like ça mouille ("it's raining"), ça c'est dur ("it's hard"), and commien ça coûte? ("how much does it cost?") and is used freely for abstracts.

Is ça mouille used outside of Cajun French? I only know of il pluie. Also, does Cajun French have ça a du sens, or is another expression used for that?
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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-24, 17:25

You will, unfortunately, be sorely disappointed with TYI in that aspect. You just have to get a feel for it.

Even I still question which vowels to pronounce sometimes. :P

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-12-24, 17:36

linguoboy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:French has ça, but that apparently means 'they' in Cajun, and I'm not sure just how often it's possible to use it to refer to abstract ideas given that there are certain rules regarding when to use c'est vs. il est, for example.

Ça doesn't just mean "they". It's the usual impersonal subject in expressions like ça mouille ("it's raining"), ça c'est dur ("it's hard"), and commien ça coûte? ("how much does it cost?") and is used freely for abstracts.

Okay, so it can mean 'they' in Cajun, but otherwise it seems pretty similar in usage to Hexagonal French.
dEhiN wrote:Is ça mouille used outside of Cajun French?

Yes, but not with that meaning as far as I know.
I only know of il pluie pleut.

La pluie is 'the rain'. Pleuvoir is the verb.

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-12-24, 21:34

vijayjohn wrote:
I only know of il pluie pleut.

La pluie is 'the rain'. Pleuvoir is the verb.

Oui, merci. J'oublie toujours que la pluie est seulement le nom.

Edit: Selon Wiktionary, il y a des formes plurielles de troisième personne (pour le verbe pleuvoir) mais ces formes sont utilisées seulement au sens figuré. Quelqu'un peut-il penser d'un exemple ? Il me semble bizarre le concept de la phrase "they rain" !
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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-12-24, 23:25


I forgot to ask, so then baballarë is the indefinite plural? If so, what's the definite plural - baballarët?

Michael wrote:The definite plural is entirely regular: Simply add -t to the indefinite base if it ends in an unstressed vowel or -të if it ends in a stressed one, it doesn't matter whether the base is regular or irregular. That's it!

Then is it fair to say that Albanian words can't have stress on the last syllable?
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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-12-25, 2:39

dEhiN wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
I only know of il pluie pleut.

La pluie is 'the rain'. Pleuvoir is the verb.

Oui, merci. J'oublie toujours que la pluie est seulement le nom.

Edit: Selon Wiktionary, il y a des formes plurielles de troisième personne (pour le verbe pleuvoir) mais ces formes sont utilisées seulement au sens figuré. Quelqu'un peut-il penser d'un exemple ? Il me semble bizarre le concept de la phrase "they rain" !

dEhiN wrote:Edit: Selon Wiktionary, il y a des formes plurielles de troisième personne (pour le verbe pleuvoir) mais ces formes sont utilisées seulement au sens figuré. Quelqu'un peut-il penser d'un exemple ? Il me semble bizarre le concept de la phrase "they rain" !

C'est une métaphore dans la littérature (comme en anglais : it's raining men, bombs were raining down, etc.). Il y a des exemples sur Wiktionnaire :
2. (Figuré) Tomber ou arriver en grande quantité.
[...]
Les plaisanteries et les compliments crus pleuvaient, en arabe, en français, plus ou moins mélangés de sabir.(Isabelle Eberhardt, Yasmina,1902)
Pif ! paf ! les gifles commencèrent à pleuvoir et la vaisselle à danser : […].(Louis Pergaud, Joséphine est enceinte, dans Les Rustiques, nouvelles villageoises, 1921)
En 1945, elle avait sept ans. Un matin, les bombes avaient commencé à pleuvoir. A Kobé, ce n'était pas la première fois qu’on les entendait, loin s’en fallait.(Amélie NOTHOMB, Métaphysique des tubes, Albin MICHEL, Paris, 2000)

3. Tomber ou sembler tomber du ciel comme la pluie, en parlant d’autres choses que la pluie.

Ce vacarme académique, qui dura tout le mois d’août 1836, était pour le moins aussi amusant que celui des étoiles filantes qui s’abattaient tous les huit jours sur le Pont-Royal, et que celui des crapauds qui pleuvaient tous les huit jours à l’Académie.(François-Vincent Raspail, Nouveau système de chimie organique, 1838, p.598)
[...]
Non, non, vos fautes apportent avec elles leur châtiment immédiat, c’est sur votre dos que pleuvront les coups, c’est vous-mêmes qui serez punis.(La révolution et les révolutionnaires de Février, dans La Revue des Deux Mondes, T.7; 1850, p.539)
Les Boches préparaient un « sale » coup, et Luc, de quart au périscope, avait donné l’alerte à sa tranchée. Presque aussitôt le bacchanal se déchaîne : les obus pleuvent, les parapets sautent.(Charles Le Goffic, Bourguignottes et pompons rouges, 1916, p.155)

dEhiN wrote:I forgot to ask, so then baballarë is the indefinite plural? If so, what's the definite plural - baballarët?

No, they're both baballarë. This is an exception to the general rule because the whole word is borrowed from Turkish (babalar, which in Turkish can mean both 'fathers' and 'the fathers' except as a direct object, where it can only mean 'fathers').
Michael wrote:The definite plural is entirely regular: Simply add -t to the indefinite base if it ends in an unstressed vowel or -të if it ends in a stressed one, it doesn't matter whether the base is regular or irregular. That's it!

Then is it fair to say that Albanian words can't have stress on the last syllable?

Nope, especially given that words can be one syllable long. ;)

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby Michael » 2017-12-26, 5:41

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:I forgot to ask, so then baballarë is the indefinite plural? If so, what's the definite plural - baballarët?

No, they're both baballarë. This is an exception to the general rule because the whole word is borrowed from Turkish (babalar, which in Turkish can mean both 'fathers' and 'the fathers' except as a direct object, where it can only mean 'fathers').

Wait, what? Baballarë is not exempt from being able to be made definite just because its source language doesn't distinguish definiteness [in the nominative]. A quick Google search will confirm this.

Michael wrote:The definite plural is entirely regular: Simply add -t to the indefinite base if it ends in an unstressed vowel or an unstressed syllable ending in a consonant, like -Vj or -Vr, -të if it ends in a stressed vowel or is a monosyllabic indefinite plural ending in a consonant, or -it if it ends in the unstressed syllables -es, -ës or -ër (the first and second endings are of words that are the same in the nominative indefinite singular and plural, those two suffixes also happening to be the Albanian equivalent to our "-er", and the third ending is of a small class of indefinite plurals, all animate nouns), it doesn't matter whether the base is regular or irregular. That's it!

Then is it fair to say that Albanian words can't have stress on the last syllable?

Nope, especially given that words can be one syllable long. ;)

I left out some important details. I guess the rules can be more confusing for a beginner than I assumed. :whistle:
American English (en-us) Pizzonese (nap) N Italian (it) Mexican Spanish (es-mx) Brazilian Portuguese (pt-br) Albanian (sq) B1 Greek (el) Persian (fa) A2 Romanian (ro) Old English (en_old) Turkish (tr) Azerbaijani (az) A1
„Çdo njeri është peng i veprave të veta.‟
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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-12-26, 16:43

Michael wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:I forgot to ask, so then baballarë is the indefinite plural? If so, what's the definite plural - baballarët?

No, they're both baballarë. This is an exception to the general rule because the whole word is borrowed from Turkish (babalar, which in Turkish can mean both 'fathers' and 'the fathers' except as a direct object, where it can only mean 'fathers').

Wait, what? Baballarë is not exempt from being able to be made definite just because its source language doesn't distinguish definiteness [in the nominative]. A quick Google search will confirm this.

Then how come this lists the definite plural as baballarë?

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby Michael » 2017-12-27, 0:21

vijayjohn wrote:Then how come this lists the definite plural as baballarë?

It's plain wrong, I'm quite sure of it and you can quote me on that, and not just in regards to what it erroneously lists as the definite plural. It lists babi as the definite singular, as if the indefinite singular were *bab or *bábë, when the definite singular is actually babái (sometimes babáu, but this is colloquial and non-standard).
American English (en-us) Pizzonese (nap) N Italian (it) Mexican Spanish (es-mx) Brazilian Portuguese (pt-br) Albanian (sq) B1 Greek (el) Persian (fa) A2 Romanian (ro) Old English (en_old) Turkish (tr) Azerbaijani (az) A1
„Çdo njeri është peng i veprave të veta.‟
Every human being is hostage to their own deeds.

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-12-27, 2:27

Falëminderit!

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-12-27, 4:31

vijayjohn wrote:Falëminderit!

Isn't it faleminderit?
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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby Michael » 2017-12-27, 4:39

dEhiN wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Falëminderit!

Isn't it faleminderit?

Yup. :yep: Shortened to falemnerit colloquially, by the way.
American English (en-us) Pizzonese (nap) N Italian (it) Mexican Spanish (es-mx) Brazilian Portuguese (pt-br) Albanian (sq) B1 Greek (el) Persian (fa) A2 Romanian (ro) Old English (en_old) Turkish (tr) Azerbaijani (az) A1
„Çdo njeri është peng i veprave të veta.‟
Every human being is hostage to their own deeds.

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-12-27, 4:42

Is <falëminderit> a common misspelling or something? Because there are 4,680 ghits for it. :hmm:

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-12-27, 5:07

Michael wrote:Yup. :yep: Shortened to falemnerit colloquially, by the way.

Yeah, I've seen that before. Actually, Colloquial Albanian (at least the old version I borrowed from the library) only lists falemnerit.
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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-12-27, 5:41

Well, it is called Colloquial Albanian! (Jk :silly:)

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-12-30, 20:04

I finally started going through the 10 or so pages of vocab in my notebook, and adding them to Anki. I did run across 2 problems with adding the Welsh vocab.

1) Should I add in the mutated forms of a noun from the get go even though I don't yet know the rules for mutation? Or should I wait until I learn the rules, and then add the mutations? If I wait, then later I could even create separate cards for the mutated forms of nouns I've already learned.

2) How should I add in the gender of a noun? Since the plural forms aren't easily determined from the singular form (in the way that English mostly uses -s or Tamil uses a plural suffix), I was thinking of adding the singular and plural forms in the same note (ex. bore -- boreau / morning [sing. -- pl.]).

I've done something similar with languages like Swedish, Romanian and Albanian, except that I've put the singular forms on one note and the plural forms on another note. The grouping instead has been based on definiteness:

Swedish: en man -- mannen / man [indef. sing. -- def. sing.]
Romanian: o noapte -- noaptea / night [f. nom./acc. indef. sing. -- def. sing.]
Albanian: qen -- qeni / dog [m. nom. indef. sing. -- def. sing.]

For languages like French, Spanish and Portuguese, where there really isn't that much nominal inflection, I haven't bothered to add the plural forms, nor add any grammatical info. I've just added the indefinite article with the word, or the definite article for uncountable nouns. I've only put the gender in brackets for French when the noun is uncountable and starts with a vowel:

Portuguese: uma cadeira / chair
French: l'eau [f.] / water
Spanish: el cerdo / pork

But the problem with Welsh seems to be that there is no case inflection, there is no indefinite article, and there are 3 forms of the definite article but they are used in different situations, not based on the gender of the noun. I guess I could just add it in brackets, like I do for Romanian and Albanian (ex. bore -- boreau / morning [m. sing. -- pl.])?
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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-30, 20:18

I'll largely let Linguoboy answer this, but I have a feeling he'll say about the same thing he told me about Irish.

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-12-31, 14:57

księżycowy wrote:I'll largely let Linguoboy answer this, but I have a feeling he'll say about the same thing he told me about Irish.

Which is what?
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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-31, 15:22

It took me a good while to find the discussion. It didn't help that I couldn't remember if we had it in my Irish thread or blog. :P

But this is where the discussion starts: viewtopic.php?f=126&t=30031&p=1073667&hilit=plural#p1073534

If nothing else it should help you with using TYI. Not so sure after rereading it if it would help with Welsh so much. Then again, I don't know any Welsh, so.....


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