TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby france-eesti » 2017-09-14, 17:26

Yeah, I got the Opel at first and now the Skoda :D As Dormouse says.
So what's the best way?

My Skoda is much faster than my Opel was?
Or can I remove the "was"? :partyhat:
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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby księżycowy » 2017-09-14, 17:48

Depends on if you want to state you don't have the Opel anymore. I would leave the "was" in personally. It makes it clearer.

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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-14, 18:19

I would be fine either way.

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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby dEhiN » 2017-09-14, 20:10

księżycowy wrote:Depends on if you want to state you don't have the Opel anymore. I would leave the "was" in personally. It makes it clearer.

Yeah for me if you have "was" it means you don't have the Opel anymore. If you say "is" it means you still have the Opel.
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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby france-eesti » 2017-09-24, 8:14

Hi! tiny Sunday update :)

(hu) So since I've finished the level A2+ of MagyarOK, my learning only consists in conversation with my Hungarian conversation partners, reading, listening to music and writing.
(pt) :oops: My practicing consists in reading a book in Portuguese and playing with Osias... Sometimes I exchange a few words with my Brazilian colleague but that's rare.

(fr) My main project now is French: I am teaching my 6 year old how to read and write and at the same time teaching my 46 year old Hungarian conversation partner how to read and write and talk.
This is extremely pleasant and interesting - because I can see where Anna has some troubles, where my Hungarian friend has some trouble and where they both have the same trouble.
An example? :)

Anna can speak, but she cannot read fluently nor write. Her biggest problem now is the "gn" and "aill, euil, eille" sound, when it's written, + the "q" letter (you know it appears a lot in French : qui, que, quelque, quand, quoi...) an especially our weird and hateful junctions of many: "qu'est-ce que c'est que ça ?" She cannot understand for the moment that "eille" must be said "eï" - that's complicated for her. And why "s" between two vowels has to be said "z" ?

My Hungarian friend has more troubles with grammar and our million exceptions. I tried to explain to him the difference between "plus" (more) and "plus" (no more) because of course, spelling is the same but pronunciation isn't. Sometimes you say the "s" but sometimes you don't. Well do you know I wasn't even able to come out with a rule that works in every situation! :doggy: I wonder how learners and learn French... This is so nasty! Robi's problem is also getting bigger with our most traumatizing rule - time agreement. That's true - why not future after "if"? why no conditional? Hey... I know it's not correct but I'm not able to explain...

So this was just a hint of my new language project - I love it very much!
Sorry for a long novel - I'm kind of passionate about this! I wish I had taken the "French for Foreigners" units at University! I cannot teach kids because I am crappy in pedagogy but I would have loved to teach adults :partyhat:

Have a nice Sunday! :D
(fr) Native - (en) Fluentish - (pt) Fluentish when I was younger - (ro) & (mg) Wanderlusting (hu) My current addiction - crazy about it! (nagy függő vagyok!)

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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby Osias » 2017-09-24, 14:26

Doesn't she go to school? :hmm:
2017 est l'année du (fr) et de l'(de) pour moi. Parle avec moi en eux, s'il te plait.

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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby france-eesti » 2017-09-24, 14:35

Sure she's going, but she loves reading and wants to go ahead (and move on quicker) so we read books aside of school program. She already read one "Mr. Men" story and now is starting with child tales :) but I really can see which words are difficult for her 8-)
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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby dEhiN » 2017-09-24, 15:41

france-eesti wrote:(hu) So since I've finished the level A2+ of MagyarOK, my learning now only consists in of conversations with my Hungarian conversation partners, reading, listening to music and writing.

If you wanted to use "in", then I would say "consists in conversing".

and especially our weird and hateful junctions of many: "qu'est-ce que c'est que ça ?"

That part "our weird and hateful junctions of many" sounds weird to me and I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean that many people hate these weird junctions? If so, I think it might sound better to say "our weird junctions that are hated by many" or "our weird junctions that (so) many hate". I'm also not sure junction is the best word to use here. Perhaps someone else can chime in here? To me a junction is kind of like an intersection or a meeting point of two things.

I tried to explain to him the difference between "plus" (more) and "plus" (no more) because of course, the spelling is the same but pronunciation isn't

I never quite remember which pronunciation to use. I think it's something like you don't say the "s" when "plus" is used as a negative (like in "ne...plus") or for a comparative (like in "plus vite"), but you do when it's used in an additive sense (like in "4 plus 4 font 8")?

Well do you know I wasn't even able to come out up with a rule that works in every situation! :doggy: I wonder how learners and learn French...

This is probably a personal stylistic thing, but "learners learn" sounds too repetitive; I would maybe say something like "people learn" or even "students of French".

Robi's problem is also getting bigger with our most traumatizing rule - time agreement

It doesn't quite sound natural to my ears to say "is also getting bigger". I'm not entirely sure what you could say to convey the same idea that I think you are trying to get across. You could say something like "Robi's biggest problem is with" although that doesn't quite convey the same idea.

That's true - why not future after "if"? why no conditional? Hey... I know it's not correct but I'm not able to explain it...

Could you give an example? I think I know the sentences you're talking about, but I don't quite remember. I do remember in my French course over the summer that we learned about some differences in conditional statements between English and French, and we just had to learn/memorize the way it's done in French. I think especially for grammar there's not always an explanation.

So this was just a hint of my new language project - I love it very much!

I think that's so cool, what you're doing! I know for myself, learning to teach my native language to others was challenging but also very rewarding. It made me understand English more - why we do some of the things we do in English - and it also helped me with learning other languages.

france-eesti wrote:Sure she's going, but she loves reading and wants to go get ahead (and move on quicker) so we read books aside outside of school program.

"To go ahead" does work in this case, but I think it's more common idiomatically to say "to get ahead". The non-idiomatic or more formal way to say it would be "to move ahead". Also afaik the two expressions that work are "aside from" or "outside of".
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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-24, 17:18

dEhiN wrote:That part "our weird and hateful junctions of many" sounds weird to me and I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean that many people hate these weird junctions? If so, I think it might sound better to say "our weird junctions that are hated by many" or "our weird junctions that (so) many hate". I'm also not sure junction is the best word to use here. Perhaps someone else can chime in here? To me a junction is kind of like an intersection or a meeting point of two things.

I think she means something like "our many weird/awkward and infamous stacks of words."

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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby france-eesti » 2017-09-27, 12:00

Hi! Thanks dear David, to take time to fix all my mistakes! :P

dEhiN wrote:If you wanted to use "in", then I would say "consists in conversing".

all right! :idea:

That part "our weird and hateful junctions of many" sounds weird to me and I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean that many people hate these weird junctions? If so, I think it might sound better to say "our weird junctions that are hated by many" or "our weird junctions that (so) many hate". I'm also not sure junction is the best word to use here. Perhaps someone else can chime in here? To me a junction is kind of like an intersection or a meeting point of two things.

Well I mean our "qu'est-ce que c'est que ça", with several "que" and "ce"... really, it's hard for learners, isn't it? I dunno how to call that... Enchaînement in French? :hmm:

I never quite remember which pronunciation to use. I think it's something like you don't say the "s" when "plus" is used as a negative (like in "ne...plus") or for a comparative (like in "plus vite"), but you do when it's used in an additive sense (like in "4 plus 4 font 8")?

That's kinda complicated. It depends on the meaning, indeed.
J'en veux plus => I want more => you have to say the "s"
Je n'en veux plus => I don't want anymore => you don't say the "s"
Elle est plus jolie qu'une fleur => she's prettier than a flower => you don't say the "s"
Elle n'est pas plus jolie que toi => she's not prettier than you => you don't say the "s"
Trois plus trois => 3 + 3 => you say the "s"

basically, I believe =>
when "plus" = "more" in a positive sentence without a comparison, then you have to say the "s"
when "plus" = "no more", you don't have to say the "s"
when "plus" is within a comparison, you don't have to say the "s"
I'm racking my brains to find another case but for the moment I can't... If you see a situation I didn't quote, please tell me :partyhat:

That's true - why not future after "if"? why no conditional? Hey... I know it's not correct but I'm not able to explain it...

Could you give an example? I think I know the sentences you're talking about, but I don't quite remember. I do remember in my French course over the summer that we learned about some differences in conditional statements between English and French, and we just had to learn/memorize the way it's done in French. I think especially for grammar there's not always an explanation.

Si je pouvais, je t'aiderais => you cannot use future after the "si"
Si j'étais toi, je ferais ça => if + imperfect and then subject + conditionnal
Like in English I believe. But I think in Portuguese you can use future, can't you? :hmm:

I think that's so cool, what you're doing! I know for myself, learning to teach my native language to others was challenging but also very rewarding. It made me understand English more - why we do some of the things we do in English - and it also helped me with learning other languages.

Exactly! :yep:

"To go ahead" does work in this case, but I think it's more common idiomatically to say "to get ahead". The non-idiomatic or more formal way to say it would be "to move ahead". Also afaik the two expressions that work are "aside from" or "outside of".

Thanks!

Have a nice day! :D
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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby Dormouse559 » 2017-09-27, 16:56

france-eesti wrote:Well I mean our "qu'est-ce que c'est que ça", with several "que" and "ce"... really, it's hard for learners, isn't it? I dunno how what to call that... Enchaînement in French? :hmm:
Vijay made a good suggestion with "our many weird/awkward and infamous stacks of words."

Also, I believe instead of "time agreement", we say "tense progression".
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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby dEhiN » 2017-09-28, 12:10

Dormouse559 wrote:
france-eesti wrote:Well I mean our "qu'est-ce que c'est que ça", with several "que" and "ce"... really, it's hard for learners, isn't it? I dunno how what to call that... Enchaînement in French? :hmm:
Vijay made a good suggestion with "our many weird/awkward and infamous stacks of words."

Couldn't you just simply say "chaining"? After all, doesn't enchaînement basically translate to "chaining"? (Well, depending on the context I'm sure). And, at least to me, something like "and especially our weird chaining of words" works well and also has a slightly more casual connotation to it (i.e., something I would probably hear people say more often in casual conversation) than "stacks of words".
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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby Dormouse559 » 2017-09-28, 14:42

dEhiN wrote:
Dormouse559 wrote:
france-eesti wrote:Well I mean our "qu'est-ce que c'est que ça", with several "que" and "ce"... really, it's hard for learners, isn't it? I dunno how what to call that... Enchaînement in French? :hmm:
Vijay made a good suggestion with "our many weird/awkward and infamous stacks of words."

Couldn't you just simply say "chaining"? After all, doesn't enchaînement basically translate to "chaining"? (Well, depending on the context I'm sure). And, at least to me, something like "and especially our weird chaining of words" works well and also has a slightly more casual connotation to it (i.e., something I would probably hear people say more often in casual conversation) than "stacks of words".
I guess? But just because enchaînement literally means "chaining" doesn't mean that's the ideal translation. Just in my last post, I advised france-eesti to say "tense progression" instead of "time agreement", even though the latter is a direct translation of accord des temps. In any case, "stacks of words" sounds no less casual to me than "chaining of words". If anything, it's more so because "chaining" isn't normally a full noun. Splitting the difference with "chains of words" sounds fine to me.
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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-28, 16:23

I think I hear "stacks of words" more frequently than "chains" or "chaining," but I guess YMMV. :hmm: Maybe "stacks" is just a thing among linguists or something. :lol:

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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby france-eesti » 2017-12-18, 12:34

Late 2017 update...

(hu) Have kind of stopped studying it with books or something - now it's just conversation (3 hours a week), music, reading and writing. My goal is to improve my understanding of written/spoken Hungarian. But I also feel I don't have as much time to put in the studying like before (since last time I started to study the viola and am fighting with my anorexia, which are both kind of time-sucker).

(pt) Still playing a lot (obrigada Osias!) and reading and listening too. I need to carry on this way. Toying with the idea of a trip to Lisbon (because although I went 3 times to Portugal, I haven't seen Lisbon yet!).

(fr) Still teaching my daughter, who is getting on very well, and my Hungarian teacher, who is very good too :) It is a very interesting project. I can see where it's hard and also discover myself how pronunciation is complicated in French, as well as spelling rules. I would love to congratulate every learner of French - this is a very brave project to learn this language :partyhat:

(et) + (mg) Wanderlusting and wanderlusting...
Actually reading a book that takes place in Latvia and loving it - my "Baltic" obsession is somehow not that strong, compared to what it was before, but it didn't fade away, not enough anyway to make me decide to leave on the library shelf a book that countains Riga or Tallinn or Vilnius in its title :lol:
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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby linguoboy » 2017-12-18, 15:45

france-eesti wrote:
I never quite remember which pronunciation to use. I think it's something like you don't say the "s" when "plus" is used as a negative (like in "ne...plus") or for a comparative (like in "plus vite"), but you do when it's used in an additive sense (like in "4 plus 4 font 8")?

That's kinda complicated. It depends on the meaning, indeed.
J'en veux plus => I want more => you have to say the "s"
Je n'en veux plus => I don't want anymore => you don't say the "s"
Elle est plus jolie qu'une fleur => she's prettier than a flower => you don't say the "s"
Elle n'est pas plus jolie que toi => she's not prettier than you => you don't say the "s"
Trois plus trois => 3 + 3 => you say the "s"

Here's another complication: In Louisiana, you never say the s. Instead, where Standard French drops the /s/, Cajun French drops the /l/! So "J'en veux plus" "I want more" vs "J'en veux plus" "I don't want any more".

This makes me wonder what Canadian speakers do.
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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-12-21, 4:09

I think they might do the same thing, if this is any sort of indication. (They spell it <pus> or <pu> in the negative sense AFAICT).

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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby linguoboy » 2017-12-21, 16:37

vijayjohn wrote:I think they might do the same thing, if this is any sort of indication. (They spell it <pus> or <pu> in the negative sense AFAICT).

In Cajun French, the most common spelling for the negative sense seems to be p'us. (E.g. "J'peux p'us t'aimer" is the title of a song by Isle Dernière, a rock band from Houma.)

I'm not sure how reliable this blog is for Québécois French, but it corroborates what you found, Vijay: "In that last example above, j’me peux p’us is a contraction of je (ne) me peux plus and means essentially the same thing as j’ai hâte. The informal p’us sounds like pu."
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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-12-21, 21:01

Thanks! I actually had found that forum when looking for what Canadian French does, but what I found was something other than that page that didn't mention any form of plus at all.

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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby france-eesti » 2018-05-24, 9:04

Hi! I can't believe I haven't updated this for so long! :D

(hu) Still first in my heart - read and speak it a lot, thanks to an extremely patient and understanding conversation partner. I am grateful that Hungarians love to share their culture and language! (And I also cook Hungarian a lot!)

(pt) A bit disappointed - because As Valquírias is boring and my "game partner" on Unilang is bored with me :D so I guess I'll try to find another book in Portuguese in the library and stick to Amalia Rogrigues and Chico Buarque to train my ear :D I also have a colleague who sometimes talks in Portuguese... But that's not a lot...

(fr) Still teaching my daughter, very nice project, and teaching my Hungarian conversation partner - it's very interesting. I can see how difficult French is!

(et) Had fun playing on 50 languages in Estonian! I can barely reach exercise 10 but it's lots of fun to try to find out, with the spelling of the word, which is its function (verb? Word? preposition? etc...). I feel like Estonian and me have a nice way to go on to discover each other...

(ro) did it too on 50 languages with Romanian! It's easier as I can recognize many words from Italian :) And of course the fact it's latin language helps a lot too! I think Romanian is handsome! :)
(fr) Native - (en) Fluentish - (pt) Fluentish when I was younger - (ro) & (mg) Wanderlusting (hu) My current addiction - crazy about it! (nagy függő vagyok!)


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