TAC 2016 (ich) German, Norwegian, Vietnamese, Spanish

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) Spanish, Norwegian, Russian, and French

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-12-27, 13:05

Hey, ich, it's nice to see you back again! :) I have a job now, too. Luckily, I do like mine, but it took me a while to get to the point where I felt like I was managing to balance work with my personal language-learning. Now I guess the main problem for me is more like balancing language-learning with following politics given who our next president is going to be. :P

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) Spanish, Norwegian, Russian, and French

Postby ich » 2017-02-20, 0:41

Hi everybody!
vijayjohn wrote:Hey, ich, it's nice to see you back again! :) I have a job now, too. Luckily, I do like mine, but it took me a while to get to the point where I felt like I was managing to balance work with my personal language-learning. Now I guess the main problem for me is more like balancing language-learning with following politics given who our next president is going to be. :P

Thanks for your post vijayjohn. :) That is awesome that you were able to find a nice balance between language-learning and your career. I am still working on that balance, but I feel like I am getting better at it. I am still doing a bit of soul-searching, however, regarding my career. Some days, I don't mind my job, but then on others, the time it takes to do my job, gets to me, as well as the social aspect. Sometimes, I am a bit nervous in social situations.
Have you been keeping up with all the political news that you were now going to try to squeeze into your schedule? There has been plenty of it!

My language-learning: As far as Norwegian is concerned, I am proud to say, that in the past 6 weeks, I have not gone backwards at all in my learning, and in fact, I even moved slightly forward. I finished two more circles on the Duolingo App, and my previous ones are all caught up. When I work on the app, I feel like the sounds of the language and the vocab are not as buried in the back of my head like it was at Christmas time, when I tried to get back into it again. I found sort of a system that has been working for me. Every Sat. morning for a few hours, I work on my Norwegian a little bit. That is just enough to keep it fresh. More than that seems daunting, when I know I still need to work that evening on correcting papers and what not.
My Spanish is still slowly and surely improving. I feel like my basics are getting really strong, however, I am not advancing and solidifying my more advanced knowledge of the language, like the usages of the preterite and imperfect or subjunctive vs indicative. I know them, but some of the irregulars I don't remember, nor can I use those tenses in conversation. When I do get a little time to focus on Spanish, I want a break from work, therefore, I prefer to run toward Norwegian or reading in German in my free time. We will see how motivated I will be in the summer....to be continued...

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) Spanish, Norwegian, Russian, and French

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-02-20, 1:05

Wow, great job with your language-learning, ich! I personally just don't have much patience for Duolingo. :lol: I try using it from time to time, though. I wish they'd hurry up and release Swahili already, and that Hindi would follow fast on its heels.
ich wrote:Have you been keeping up with all the political news that you were now going to try to squeeze into your schedule? There has been plenty of it!

No! Which is scary given that if things get bad enough in this country, I may have to flee for my life with my entire family, and that too for a country where I don't expect all that much in the way of personal liberties.

Now I guess I just have to try to get enough sleep. :P

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) Spanish, Norwegian, Russian, and French

Postby ich » 2017-06-02, 6:58

I'm back! :)
I can't wait to get started! School just got out and will be out until about August 21, with some days here and there for meetings during the summer, but overall, I am FREE!!! So far I have spent my time catching up with all the lessons that I was behind in on Duolingo in Norwegian. It didn't take long. Just three days or so. I started a new circle today and maybe will do a few more lessons within it before I go to bed tonight. It is 6 lessons long.
I am also redoing my German lessons just for kicks. I really miss German. I feel like Spanish has taken over my foreign language part of my brain, and all the German I used to know has faded far away. I am reading in German daily as well. I want to watch a few movies or maybe a TV series in German as well for listening practice.
Despite Spanish taking over my brain, I still feel my Spanish is far from up to par because all I have been practicing is lower level Spanish, since that is the level I am teaching. I am still very much ashamed of my little knowledge of Spanish, however, I am honestly so very sick of it too, that I do not want to take the time to make it better. Spanish was never a passion of mine to begin with. I really only studied it in college to open doors career-wise.
I have been dabbling in Vietnamese as well. One day, I was just messing around on Duolingo, and I found the Vietnamese lessons particularly fun because they were challenging, but the language does not use a whole new alphabet. I want to continue to dabble in this language over the summer. So far I have finished the first checkpoint on Duolingo in this language, but my language skills are terrible. I can't get through a whole lesson without getting something wrong. Those accent marks are giving me the toughest time! And the vowels!
To vijayjohn:
Thanks so much for your support, while I am taking on these languages! How are you enjoying the Swahili lessons on Duolingo by the way? I can understand what you mean how you sometimes have to have a lot of patience to use that program because they make you do the same circles so many times. It is helpful for me because it gives me some sort of direction with audio support, but if I wanted to progress faster, it probably wouldn't be my first pick either.
I was browsing the African Language forum by the way, and I saw that you were learning Dinka at one time. Are you still learning that? Someone at my workplace spoke that language, and I almost dabbled in it. I struggled with finding good resources. Things like that make me frustrated very quickly. You really dug deep for them and found some good stuff!

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) Spanish, Norwegian, Russian, and French

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-06-02, 16:57

I think I feel about Mandarin Chinese (and to a lesser extent, French, German(!), and Spanish) a bit like how you feel about German now.

Btw, you're in North Dakota? My parents and brother used to live in Rapid City for a few years or so before I was born.
ich wrote:Thanks so much for your support, while I am taking on these languages!

No problem! :)
How are you enjoying the Swahili lessons on Duolingo by the way?

I haven't touched Duolingo since I last wrote here except to add Swahili without even bothering to look at any of the lessons. :lol:
I can understand what you mean how you sometimes have to have a lot of patience to use that program because they make you do the same circles so many times.

Not only that, they make you go through the same routines so many times (translate this, write out the correct words here, pick the best option, translate this, write the word, pick the option, translate, write, pick, translate, write, pick...), and to me, it feels like doing my online translation job for free. :P
It is helpful for me because it gives me some sort of direction with audio support, but if I wanted to progress faster, it probably wouldn't be my first pick either.

I see. I think for me, language learning is the one area where I've never really been given direction, and given how successful I've consistently been at it, I don't really want any, either. People have been directing how I do so many other things in my life that it's nice to finally have something everybody just lets me do my own way.
I was browsing the African Language forum by the way, and I saw that you were learning Dinka at one time. Are you still learning that?

Right now, no, but yes, it's still one of the languages in my current list of languages to learn/practice. :) Of course, I realize that there aren't too many resources for it, so I don't expect to gain any particular level of fluency in it or anything, but I still like learning it because it's so different from most other African languages and I love linguistic diversity.
Someone at my workplace spoke that language, and I almost dabbled in it. I struggled with finding good resources. Things like that make me frustrated very quickly. You really dug deep for them and found some good stuff!

Thanks! I have experience with struggling to find good resources because I never found any good textbooks or anything for Malayalam. :P Now, though, I speak it almost natively. Given that I've gotten that far with Malayalam, I'm curious to see whether I can get my French, Spanish, German, Portuguese, and/or Mandarin Chinese up to that level, too (and, more generally, how many languages I can get to that level. All six? Less than six? More than six? Can I take an exam to certify that I'm fluent or whatever? I don't really know of one for Malayalam. Also, if I don't manage to get a given language up to that level, how far can or will I?).

Out of all of these languages, Mandarin Chinese feels like the one that's been slipping the most, so I've been trying to improve my Mandarin lately. There are so many expressions I've completely forgotten because I can hardly imagine using them. Maybe I should also try using LP for it again. I used to do that all the time before I started taking Chinese courses in college. Anyway, after I try doing that for a while and try to improve my knowledge of a bunch of other languages a little, too, then I'll come back to Dinka. :yep:

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) German, Norwegian, Vietnamese, Spanish

Postby ich » 2017-06-05, 2:44

Hello again everyone!
Great News! I am continuing to move forward in my languages. I completed three circles in Duolingo in Norwegian. I am only one more circle away from my next checkpoint. The circle has 6 lessons in it, so it might take me two days. My brain gets overwhelmed when I do more than four or so at a time. After I complete the last circle, I am going to get all the newest words onto notecards, so basically the entire last checkpoint. This could take a few days, but I need to start quizzing myself more frequently than Duolingo usually reviews because I am forgetting a few words that Duolingo never reviews or rarely. Also, I can review 60 notecards in a matter of minutes and it takes me hours to review 60 plus words in Duolingo. I feel like my brain isn't as sharp now, as it was when I was younger. :(

I am moving somewhat forward in Vietnamese. I am writing all the vocab in my notebook that I have been introduced to up to this point because it got to be more than I could keep track of and I wanted to make notecards of them. I am finding out that I am remembering the vocab so much better by just writing it in my own handwriting in my notebook. I feel like I have some things sorted out now, like the difference between the two plural markers that have been introduced so far. Before I had no idea what was going on, so I am glad I am going back through everything again.

I am getting nowhere in Spanish. Still recovering from the school year. It reminds me of my job, that I am working so hard to forget about this summer. How about I just write about Spanish if I actually DO something with it?

And as far as my German is concerned: I have just been reading my book, watching shows, listening to German music...the usual.....this will probably be consistent throughout the summer. I am, however, looking to start journaling in German and posting in Lang-8 again. Maybe I will shoot for starting that in a week or so.

vijayjohn wrote:Btw, you're in North Dakota? My parents and brother used to live in Rapid City for a few years or so before I was born.

Yeah, I grew up here all my life. :) I've been to Rapid City a couple of times. It is really nice down there in the Black Hills!
vijayjohn wrote:they make you go through the same routines so many times (translate this, write out the correct words here, pick the best option, translate this, write the word, pick the option, translate, write, pick, translate, write, pick...), and to me, it feels like doing my online translation job for free. :P

I completely agree. That does get particularly annoying. I especially do not like the German lessons that make me match words together because some words have several meanings. I am glad the Norwegian lessons don't have that option. However, some of the exercises are too easy, when we just pick and choose.
You have an online translation job? That sounds awesome! If I were a better writer in English and could reach native fluency in a language, that would be a dream job. :)
vijayjohn wrote: I love linguistic diversity.

Me too. :) I think that is what got me so into Vietnamese. I was just messing around one day on Duolingo and one of the linguistic features caught my eye (the classifiers), and I was hooked.
vijayjohn wrote:I never found any good textbooks or anything for Malayalam. :P Now, though, I speak it almost natively.

How did you get to such a high level in Malayalam? Were you ever immersed in their culture at one point?
vijayjohn wrote: I'm curious to see whether I can get my French, Spanish, German, Portuguese, and/or Mandarin Chinese up to that level, too (and, more generally, how many languages I can get to that level. All six? Less than six? More than six? Can I take an exam to certify that I'm fluent or whatever? I don't really know of one for Malayalam. Also, if I don't manage to get a given language up to that level, how far can or will I?).

For 15 years now, I have been having these very thoughts as well. I have been trying to have my Spanish and any other language I have ever dabbled in to reach my level in German. That is the bar that I have always set. I keep wondering if I can ever achieve that again, however, my German just continues to build, and it just seems like such a huge mountain to climb again with another language. Some things that I know in German, I didn't even realize it when I was learning them. I basically acquired these tidbits of knowledge. It is so effortless. I feel like I am an eternity away from this effortless point in all of my languages including Spanish.

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) German, Norwegian, Vietnamese, Spanish

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-06-05, 3:36

ich wrote:I feel like my brain isn't as sharp now, as it was when I was younger. :(

I think we all have that problem. ;) But have you considered doing something with Norwegian other than Duolingo and notecards?
I am moving somewhat forward in Vietnamese. I am writing all the vocab in my notebook that I have been introduced to up to this point because it got to be more than I could keep track of and I wanted to make notecards of them. I am finding out that I am remembering the vocab so much better by just writing it in my own handwriting in my notebook.

Yeah, that definitely helps! I remember I tried learning Vietnamese using TY when I was a teenager (and before that, I was struggling to learn it from a really awful textbook called "Vietnamese For You" that I bought at a Sino-Vietnamese store here soon after moving here :lol:). It was fine until I got to Chapter 6 or Chapter 9 or something, and then I just had this huge vocab block, possibly because of all the Chinese loanwords that were confusing the heck out of me.
You have an online translation job? That sounds awesome!

Well, sort of. I signed up for this website where they let you do online translation, but I haven't actually used it in almost a year or more because I now have another (real-life) job that's also pretty cool. :) It's called Unbabel, if you're interested. They don't actually make you translate per se; they use an automatic translator (Google? :P) and then put it through a pipeline of human editors who each edit the translation for better accuracy. You can try to do this for as many language pairs as you want, and you translate just a (usually short) text snippet at a time (say, a few sentences), and they pay you for each one you do through PayPal and show you how much they're paying you.
How did you get to such a high level in Malayalam? Were you ever immersed in their culture at one point?

I'm Malayalee myself and have lived with my parents my whole life so far (I'm hoping that will change soon, preferably in a matter of months). They have spoken Malayalam every day of their lives as far as I can remember. At first, Malayalam was the only language I spoke at all, but when I went to pre-school, the teachers and other staff assumed I was retarded, apparently with the main reason being that I didn't speak English. (It didn't help that when I did try to say something in English, it was the one quote I learned from Mr. Magoo: "Get out of here, you lousy, big oaf!" because I had no idea what it actually meant :lol:). So they basically made my parents and brother talk to me only in English, and I lost all my Malayalam. I struggled to relearn it for so many years (seriously, I have never poured this much effort into any other language), but after something like 25 years of this, it seems to have finally paid off! Now I've managed to get my parents to talk to me almost exclusively in Malayalam. :)
For 15 years now, I have been having these very thoughts as well. I have been trying to have my Spanish and any other language I have ever dabbled in to reach my level in German. That is the bar that I have always set. I keep wondering if I can ever achieve that again, however, my German just continues to build, and it just seems like such a huge mountain to climb again with another language. Some things that I know in German, I didn't even realize it when I was learning them. I basically acquired these tidbits of knowledge. It is so effortless. I feel like I am an eternity away from this effortless point in all of my languages including Spanish.

I was also finding that my Malayalam was improving significantly whereas my other languages weren't, but I'm hoping maybe I can try to change that. Currently, I'm trying to achieve some progress by not reading anything in Malayalam for a while and only reading things in (or at least for teaching) another one of my target languages instead.

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) German, Norwegian, Vietnamese, Spanish

Postby Dr. House » 2017-06-05, 6:33

As someone who also dabbled in Vietnamese, how are you holding up? I still recognize some words in written Vietnamese like thit (meat) , but I can hardly say anything. All those tones, nasals, implosive endings and similar vowels were driving me crazy. Yeah and all the pronouns!! I feel like Mandarin phonology is so much easier, but not because of less tones.

But you're right. Vietnamese is loads of fun. I wish I could speak it better.:)

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) German, Norwegian, Vietnamese, Spanish

Postby ich » 2017-06-16, 6:52

Hi everyone,
So, slowly and surely, I am working through mainly Norwegian and working a little bit on Vietnamese. I finished the third checkpoint in Norwegian entirely and afterwards made flashcards for the second and third checkpoints. 781 flashcards!! It took me forever!! I have officially started a SRS using a Leitner Box with my flashcards. I am introducing 30 to myself per day. At that rate, I should have all the words that have ever been introduced to me in Duolingo integrated into my Leitner Box within 24 days. At the same time, I would like to work a bit ahead in Duolingo with new words and have those flashcards made up by the time that I get to day 24. By August, however, I will probably stop introducing new words and just work with the words I have already in my Leitner Box. The goal is to not get overwhelmed during the school year and quit. I want to continuously learn little by little throughout the school year. Despite how far I get this summer or this next coming school year, if I haven't quit, it is a success. I really want to stick with Norwegian for the long haul and not have it just be another language that I got into due to Wanderlust.

vijayjohn wrote:But have you considered doing something with Norwegian other than Duolingo and notecards?

I do flip through my old Norwegian textbook every now and again and use it as a grammar reference, but as far as production is concerned, :? I probably should write and read more in the language. Truthfully, I get frustrated when I write because I have to look up so many words. I am also unsure about how I can learn my vocabulary in a systematic way when I read and so forth. Listening comprehension is the last thing I will probably work on because it is the hardest for me.
I know this probably will sound really weird, but I am OCD, and it bothers me to come across new vocab and not be able to write it down in my vocab book. When I read, I come across simply too much and I get overwhelmed. Ideally, I should use Duolingo as my focus on vocab and just allow myself to know the other vocab from reading as just a good FYI and what I memorize is what I memorize and leave it at that, but I find that so hard. This is something I need to work on on a personal level. I am holding myself back and I know it.
vijayjohn wrote: It's called Unbabel, if you're interested. They don't actually make you translate per se; they use an automatic translator (Google? ) and then put it through a pipeline of human editors who each edit the translation for better accuracy. You can try to do this for as many language pairs as you want, and you translate just a (usually short) text snippet at a time (say, a few sentences), and they pay you for each one you do through PayPal and show you how much they're paying you.

This sounds really cool. I am going to look into this. I hope my German is good enough. I am around a C1 level. I just can't get to C2, no matter how long I have practiced it. Do you have any great tips on how to get from C1 to C2? I feel like I have plateaued (Is this a word? lol).
vijayjohn wrote: I lost all my Malayalam. I struggled to relearn it for so many years (seriously, I have never poured this much effort into any other language), but after something like 25 years of this, it seems to have finally paid off! Now I've managed to get my parents to talk to me almost exclusively in Malayalam.

What a terrible loss! It is such a blessing to be born in a bilingual family. It is really unfortunate that your pre-school teacher did not see what a benefit this was.
vijayjohn wrote:I was also finding that my Malayalam was improving significantly whereas my other languages weren't, but I'm hoping maybe I can try to change that. Currently, I'm trying to achieve some progress by not reading anything in Malayalam for a while and only reading things in (or at least for teaching) another one of my target languages instead.

That is what I really need to do with my German as well. I need to learn to let it go for a while and allow another language in. Now that I have reached an advanced level of German, my German doesn't just disappear overnight, so I need to trust that when I focus on another language, that my German will still be there later.
Dr. House wrote:As someone who also dabbled in Vietnamese, how are you holding up? I still recognize some words in written Vietnamese like thit (meat) , but I can hardly say anything. All those tones, nasals, implosive endings and similar vowels were driving me crazy. Yeah and all the pronouns!! I feel like Mandarin phonology is so much easier, but not because of less tones.

This is why I am just going to dabble in it. :D It is quite a challenge and Norwegian is my main priority. If I were to ever be able to make a conversation in Vietnamese, I would have to put my entire focus on it. I just don't have time for that. At this point, the vowels and the accents are annoying the heck out of me, but at the same time, it is what makes it fun because it is what makes it so unique (to me because I have mainly dabbled in Indo-European languages). I did look up the pronouns on Wiki and gave up after seeing how complicated they are. I am just going to let them come to me in Duolingo. :)

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) German, Norwegian, Vietnamese, Spanish

Postby ich » 2017-06-17, 2:05

Hello everyone again,

Vijayjohn gave me such an awesome link to test my language proficiency, so I took two of the tests so far. I took the German and Norwegian one. I would like to take the French and Spanish ones as well. My German score was a 69, getting one wrong. I was soo cranky. I hate getting questions wrong in German. I take German really seriously. I messed up on:
4. Frau Müller, ..... ist Herr Berger. Freut mich, Herr Berger.
I selected: hier
instead of: der :oops:
I scored a 59 on my Norwegian one. I missed 11 questions. It said I was upper intermediate. :hmm: I think that may be a tad bit off. I can hardly carry a conversation in Norwegian. I am fairly good at reading it because so many words come from German. I also know/understand quite a bit of grammar, but I lack so much vocabulary. I was able to infer some of the answers even though I barely knew what the sentence was saying.

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) German, Norwegian, Vietnamese, Spanish

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-17, 2:14

ich wrote::
I scored a 59 on my Norwegian one. I missed 11 questions. It said I was upper intermediate. :hmm: I think that may be a tad bit off. [...] I was able to infer some of the answers even though I barely knew what the sentence was saying.

I was able to do the same with there Japanese test. I barely knew any of the words after maybe the first 10 questions. But I did a lot of guessing with what grammar I do know. It gave me an "intermediate" score, when I'm really a pretty shaky beginner.

I usually don't give much credence to tests like those, but I had some time to waste today. :P

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) German, Norwegian, Vietnamese, Spanish

Postby dEhiN » 2017-06-17, 11:43

księżycowy wrote:
ich wrote::
I scored a 59 on my Norwegian one. I missed 11 questions. It said I was upper intermediate. :hmm: I think that may be a tad bit off. [...] I was able to infer some of the answers even though I barely knew what the sentence was saying.

I was able to do the same with there Japanese test. I barely knew any of the words after maybe the first 10 questions. But I did a lot of guessing with what grammar I do know. It gave me an "intermediate" score, when I'm really a pretty shaky beginner.

I usually don't give much credence to tests like those, but I had some time to waste today. :P

I found with those particular tests (as well as others online), it's easy to score pretty well. For one thing, the test is really only for reading comprehension, so ich perhaps your reading level in Norwegian is upper intermediate? For another thing, if you have some knowledge of grammar in the target language and/or similar languages, or extensive vocabulary in similar languages, you basically get help with the test. Which I guess again supports the first thing - that these tests are good for reading level.
My TAC for 2017.

N:(en) | B2:(fr) | A2:(es)(pt) | A1:(ja)(ko)(sv)(ta) | A0:(de)(fy)(hi)(hu)(it)(pl)(ro)(tr)

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) German, Norwegian, Vietnamese, Spanish

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-17, 11:54

I'm not even sure it's good for reading level with Japanese. I'm sure that's the case with most of the other languages (including Chinese), but 90% of the questions in the Japanese test are in romaji....
いいじゃないの! :n:

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) German, Norwegian, Vietnamese, Spanish

Postby ich » 2017-06-24, 8:32

Hey everyone,

Here comes the update:

So, my best friend came to visit me for a week and just left today, so I haven't been working on my languages intensely. I did, however, manage to keep up with my SRS for 10 straight days. I am so proud. hehe I have been introducing 30 new words each day. So far, I am right on schedule. Once I get all 781 words that I have from Duolingo intregrated, I think I am just going to stop introducing new words into my SRS for a while because as I am working through the vocab, I am figuring out that the words really pile up, just introducing 30 a day. For example, on day 28, I will have to go through 480 cards if I don't miss any. So far, I usually only miss one or two cards when going through a stack of 120 at level 3. 480 is way too overwhelming to go through during the school year. Maybe, during the school year, I can try introducing just 5-10 words a days or something like that. I will see when the time comes.

Has anyone out there tried doing an SRS by hand rather than Anki? If so, did you find it useful?

As far as my Vietnamese is concerned, I haven't gone through anything new, however, I have everything in my vocab book and I did a lesson here and there throughout the past week, and the vocab feels really fresh in my memory. :)

dEhiN wrote:I found with those particular tests (as well as others online), it's easy to score pretty well. For one thing, the test is really only for reading comprehension, so ich perhaps your reading level in Norwegian is upper intermediate? For another thing, if you have some knowledge of grammar in the target language and/or similar languages, or extensive vocabulary in similar languages, you basically get help with the test. Which I guess again supports the first thing - that these tests are good for reading level.

Perhaps. Whenever I try to read a Norwegian text, I understand significantly more than I can produce speaking and what I can understand when listening. I am probably at an A2 level in listening and speaking. My writing is probably lower intermediate or B1. I can imagine that my reading level could be B2. I agree with you that it is basically a reading comprehension test with an emphasis on grammar. I guess it is the quality you get for free. :P

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) German, Norwegian, Vietnamese, Spanish

Postby dEhiN » 2017-06-24, 9:54

ich wrote:I did, however, manage to keep up with my SRS for 10 straight days. I am so proud. hehe I have been introducing 30 new words each day. So far, I am right on schedule. Once I get all 781 words that I have from Duolingo intregrated, I think I am just going to stop introducing new words into my SRS for a while because as I am working through the vocab, I am figuring out that the words really pile up, just introducing 30 a day. For example, on day 28, I will have to go through 480 cards if I don't miss any. So far, I usually only miss one or two cards when going through a stack of 120 at level 3. 480 is way too overwhelming to go through during the school year. Maybe, during the school year, I can try introducing just 5-10 words a days or something like that. I will see when the time comes.

Yeah I remember encountering this situation myself in the past. I didn't have such a high new word goal; mine was 20 a day. But it added up. I've realized it also depends on how many steps you have (or in other words, how many days a card is in Learning mode). I think at one point I had 10 or 20 new cards a day plus steps of "10 120 1440 2880 4320"*. That really quickly added up!

Now I have 3 options groups called "Languages Group 1/2/3". They basically have the same settings, except that group 1 has 5 new cards a day, group 2 has 2, and group 3 has 1. And I've set my steps to "10 120 1440". Another thing I've learned to do is use multiple decks, and I split it up based on resource (ex. I might have one deck for French Duolingo, then another for Spanish Duolingo, etc.).

*For those who don't know what I mean by steps, it's basically how many minutes between when the card is shown. So, using the example I gave, when a card is first shown, choosing Good as a response will then show the card in 120 minutes or 2 hours. If I choose Good again, then the card is shown in 24 hours, then 48 hours, and then 72 hours. Finally, after all that - a total of 7 days - the card goes into Review mode and is considered to have been learned.
My TAC for 2017.

N:(en) | B2:(fr) | A2:(es)(pt) | A1:(ja)(ko)(sv)(ta) | A0:(de)(fy)(hi)(hu)(it)(pl)(ro)(tr)

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) German, Norwegian, Vietnamese, Spanish

Postby ich » 2017-06-29, 2:13

dEhiN wrote:Now I have 3 options groups called "Languages Group 1/2/3". They basically have the same settings, except that group 1 has 5 new cards a day, group 2 has 2, and group 3 has 1. And I've set my steps to "10 120 1440". Another thing I've learned to do is use multiple decks, and I split it up based on resource (ex. I might have one deck for French Duolingo, then another for Spanish Duolingo, etc.).

That's a good idea. :) I was thinking of grouping them separately as well. I was thinking maybe I could stagger them. I would start certain card groups on different days of the calendar as well, so that when the cards get to level 5 or so, they would get to that level at different times?

dEhiN wrote:*For those who don't know what I mean by steps, it's basically how many minutes between when the card is shown. So, using the example I gave, when a card is first shown, choosing Good as a response will then show the card in 120 minutes or 2 hours. If I choose Good again, then the card is shown in 24 hours, then 48 hours, and then 72 hours. Finally, after all that - a total of 7 days - the card goes into Review mode and is considered to have been learned.

I never thought to break up the levels within the day. Do you study your new words just 10 minutes later and then two hours later, and then once again 1 day later? Perhaps, I misunderstood as well.

I do my levels in days. 1 day, 2 days, 4 days, 9 days, 16 days, 24 days, and so forth. This is the schedule that was provided in the book I read about the Leitner Box. Fluent Forever by Gabriel Wyner. Because Norwegian is a Germanic language, it is easier for me to memorize the vocabulary, so I usually only forget one or two words from day 1 to day 2, and the mistake usually has to do with memorizing the noun declension or something like that. I think, however, once I do a Vietnamese Leitner Box (Maybe next summer's project?), I may need to go over the vocab within the very day I learned the words the first go-around.

Now for my update :) : I am right on schedule with my Leitner Box. I am on Day 16. I am a fourth of the way through the first 64 days. For a little while there, I wasn't sure if this was going to pay off because it was starting to feel like work because it was required every day, but then I got to level 4 and did about 240 cards plus another 60 in level 2, and I only got 6 wrong total (2 from level 4 and 4 from level 2). I noticed that I got more wrong in the earlier levels than the higher levels. I can now see how I am retaining the vocabulary over a long period of time, which has always been a struggle for me. This got me more excited about the Leitner Box, and now I usually can't wait to do my cards the next day. Also, the new cards I am introducing, I am memorizing faster because I understand the noun declensions better. I was so confused on Duolingo, but I look up every word in the dictionary and now memorize them systematically. Now I understand the three basic ways to decline a masc. noun, neuter noun and fem. noun (Up to this point, I have only seen one way for feminine nouns - ex. kone kona koner konene). I am starting to see patterns, and can almost anticipate which declension it belongs to. For ex. I can anticipate that "lærer" changes to "lærere" and "lærerne" and a word like "appelsin" changes to "appelsiner" and "appelsinene" in the plural just by looking at the word's structure. Of course, there are exceptions, and that's where the dictionary comes in. :D

I also started to do new lessons in Duolingo. Before I begin adding them to my Leitner Box, I am just jotting down vocab in my vocab book. After I clear the next checkpoint, I will put them all on notecards all at once. I hope to get to the next checkpoint before the start of school and have them all on notecards. Then, during the school year, I will add just a few words a day to my SRS. I hope I stick to this throughout the school year.

Also, I have been practicing my reading skills a bit. I read a couple of dialogues and short readings a day in my Norwegian textbook På Vei. I skip around, so I am not really measuring my language practice with this. I am also trying to just read for fun and not write any vocab down. My focus is just to try to get what I can out of the text and see how the vocab I already know is being used in context. Nothing systematic.

I am still trying to figure out what to do for writing. Everytime I want to write something, I need soooo much vocabulary.

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) German, Norwegian, Vietnamese, Spanish

Postby dEhiN » 2017-06-29, 3:43

So I missed the part where you wrote that you are using the Leitner Box (and specifically the Fluent Forever 64-day version of the Leitner Box). Anki works differently; it is still an SRS based system, but it doesn't have the concept of levels. You could look up how Anki works, or if you're curious, I can share quickly how it works.

I like your idea of using Duolingo and writing the new words down in your notebook until you get to the next checkpoint and then adding them to your flashcard system. I haven't used Duo in a long time, and most of that is because the last time I tried to use it alongside Anki, I tired myself out by trying to add every single new word I learned through Duo immediately to Anki. I know Duo does have its own algorithm for making sure you don't forget words, but I like the idea of having all my vocab consolidated as much as possible, which is what I try to use Anki for.

Regarding writing, maybe you could just write little things in Norwegian. For example, over the past 2-3 years that I've focused on French as part of my TAC, I've attempted to write different updates in French. I would have to look up a lot of words initially, and I also would get corrected a lot. But I think over the 3 years or so my writing has gotten better. And the active usage of the language helps me retain what I learn from reading and flashcard studying, both of which can be passive activities.
My TAC for 2017.

N:(en) | B2:(fr) | A2:(es)(pt) | A1:(ja)(ko)(sv)(ta) | A0:(de)(fy)(hi)(hu)(it)(pl)(ro)(tr)

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) German, Norwegian, Vietnamese, Spanish

Postby ich » 2017-07-05, 23:29

dEhiN wrote:So I missed the part where you wrote that you are using the Leitner Box (and specifically the Fluent Forever 64-day version of the Leitner Box). Anki works differently; it is still an SRS based system, but it doesn't have the concept of levels. You could look up how Anki works, or if you're curious, I can share quickly how it works.

That's my bad. :P I wasn't very specific about the type of SRS that I was using. I looked into Anki a bit, and I found a lot of information about its features and how to set up the notecards and things like that, but I am struggling to find exactly which algorithm it uses. That would be great if you wouldn't mind explaining it to me briefly.

dEhiN wrote:I like your idea of using Duolingo and writing the new words down in your notebook until you get to the next checkpoint and then adding them to your flashcard system.

Thanks! :)

dEhiN wrote:I know Duo does have its own algorithm for making sure you don't forget words, but I like the idea of having all my vocab consolidated as much as possible, which is what I try to use Anki for.

I agree. And I am not sure exactly of the reason, but I seem to memorize the words better using the Leitner Box over using Duolingo. I think the questions in Duolingo may be too easy. I just mainly use that program to create my list of vocabulary and practice creating sentences. I try not to look at the options when creating the sentence, and then I click on the answers. I also use it to practice my pronunciation.
Do you feel that the Anki algorithm works for you better than Duolingo's?

dEhiN wrote:I've attempted to write different updates in French.

Jeg vil forsøke i dag. :) I will try today.

Hallo alle sammen!
So, I am only five days away from having all my 780 notecards integrated into my SRS. It has been quite a process and I am very glad to be almost done. It was starting to get a bit tiring to have 30 new cards every single day, while also trying to move ahead in Duolingo and other Norwegian practicing. Since the last time I wrote, I completed two circles in the next checkpoint in Duo, which was quite a bit considering each circle had 7 lessons a piece. I also started to jump into a "Teach Yourself" book called "Enjoy Norwegian" by Elizabeth Moorhead Halvorsen. It is the intermediate to advanced level. My Norwegian level is at a weird stage because I understand a lot when I read and nothing that I hear. I can produce it somewhat when writing and just pitifully when speaking. So, I used this book to just see how words that I have been learning are being used in context. It was quite difficult though. I had to look up many words, but it was fun to have a challenge. The book has 10 units. I have no goal in particular. I am just going with the flow, and some of the exercises I may not do. So far I am about half way through unit 1. I am only keeping mental notes on the vocab. Now for my writing practice. Below is just a summary of what I wrote here, but in Norwegian. This is not meant to be a translation. At this point, I can only get the main idea across.

Jeg har bare fem dager som er igjen (that are remaining....is this possible to say?) og da vil jeg ha alle kort i SRS-et mitt. Jeg er veldig glad, at jeg er nesten ferdig. Tretti kort er for mange hver dag, mens jeg gjør nye lekser med Duo. Jeg avsluttet to sirkler i Duolingo. Det var mye fordi hver sirkel hadde sju lekser. I tillegg (new phrase from my book :)) begynte jeg å arbeide i boken "Teach Yourself - Enjoy Norwegian" av Elizabeth Moorhead Halvorsen. Det er fra mellomliggende til avansert nivå. Norsknivå mitt er litt rart fordi jeg forstår mye når jeg leser og ingenting når jeg hører språket. Jeg kan skrive litt norsk, men jeg kan ikke snakke språket. Så, jeg bruker den boken å se ord i kontekst. Det var svært vanskelig ennå. Jeg trengte mye ordboken min, men jeg moret meg å ha en utfordring. Boken har ti enheter. Jeg har ikke et mål. Jeg vil lære, når jeg har tid. Kanskje noen øvelser vil jeg gjøre ikke. Hittil har jeg gjort halv av enhet 1. Jeg skriver ikke de nye ord.

Wow, was that hard!! And there are probably many many mistakes. I am open to any corrections. :)

Also, I want to end this post with a question to anyone reading this. See, today I came across the phrase "helt alene." ("all alone") When I tried to guess this word, I wrote "alle alene." I've noticed in the past that every time I see "hel," the German word "ganz" tends to fit in the context quite well. I know this, and I am trying to transfer this over when I think in Norwegian, however my mother tongue is just too strong, however, when I even picture saying something like "alle alleine" or something like that, it sort of makes my skin crawl. So, apparently I have acquired this phrase. I never think about the context I need to use "ganz" in as opposed to "alle." I couldn't even explain it to someone. So, why is it that I cannot transfer this concept of "ganz" over to my Norwegian. Also, have any of you out there experienced something similar to this?

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) German, Norwegian, Vietnamese, Spanish

Postby dEhiN » 2017-07-09, 6:28

ich wrote:That would be great if you wouldn't mind explaining it to me briefly.

So it seems Anki's algorithm is based on another SRS program called SuperMemo (and specifically SuperMemo's SM2 algorithm). There's quite a bit of information here, but I'll quote the parts that are relevant:

SuperMemo pioneered the concept of a system that keeps track of the ideal time to review material and optimizes itself based on the performance of the user.

In SuperMemo’s spaced repetition system, every time you answer a question, you tell the program how well you were able to remember it – whether you forgot completely, made a small mistake, remembered with trouble, remembered easily, etc. The program uses this feedback to decide the optimal time to show you the question again. Since a memory gets stronger each time you successfully recall it, the time between reviews gets bigger and bigger – so you may see a question for the first time, then 3 days later, 15 days later, 45 days later, and so on.


So basically with Anki, each time you see a card in review you try to recall it (you can also set it up so you have to type in the answer), and then click on Show Answer. At that point, you have 4 buttons/options - Again, Hard, Good, and Easy. The idea is that you choose how difficult or easy it was for you to remember the card. If you forgot completely you would then choose Again. And based on the algorithm (and variables that you can control in the settings), each option will result in the card being showed at a different point in the future.

It's a little different with new cards, but it's essentially the same idea.

ich wrote:And I am not sure exactly of the reason, but I seem to memorize the words better using the Leitner Box over using Duolingo.

I found the same thing essentially: that using just Duolingo alone wasn't helpful for me. I think it might have to do with the way our brains work. Basically every time a memory is accessed in a new context, a new connection/neural pathway is made to it. So after some time, certain memories (which I assume includes vocabulary words and grammar concepts in any language) will have many connections to it, essentially signaling that that memory is important and also making it easier to access that memory. Following this logic, I thought of it this way: when I use Duolingo alone, the connections to what I learned through Duolingo were limited and specifically tied to the "Duolingo context". By using Anki and other methods to utilise what I learned, I'm creating new connections to that memory. Basically the words/grammar becomes easier to access because the memory isn't tied to a specific "Duolingo" context.

ich wrote:Do you feel that the Anki algorithm works for you better than Duolingo's?

Definitely. But I can tend to just stick with one thing and think that's enough; I find I actually have to use a mix of Anki, Duo, my TAC, my notebooks, etc. and that helps me the most.

ich wrote:Also, I want to end this post with a question to anyone reading this. See, today I came across the phrase "helt alene." ("all alone") When I tried to guess this word, I wrote "alle alene." I've noticed in the past that every time I see "hel," the German word "ganz" tends to fit in the context quite well. I know this, and I am trying to transfer this over when I think in Norwegian, however my mother tongue is just too strong, however, when I even picture saying something like "alle alleine" or something like that, it sort of makes my skin crawl. So, apparently I have acquired this phrase. I never think about the context I need to use "ganz" in as opposed to "alle." I couldn't even explain it to someone. So, why is it that I cannot transfer this concept of "ganz" over to my Norwegian. Also, have any of you out there experienced something similar to this?

What's your mother tongue? Also I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, but that's because I don't know German! However, perhaps one reason you can't transfer a concept that works in German to Norwegian is because they are different languages? I've experience this with Romance languages: though, for example, French and Spanish are fairly similar, there are concepts in French that I can't transfer over to Spanish or vice versa. The simplest example of this would probably be the same word (that could even have the same meaning but) which are used in different contexts.
My TAC for 2017.

N:(en) | B2:(fr) | A2:(es)(pt) | A1:(ja)(ko)(sv)(ta) | A0:(de)(fy)(hi)(hu)(it)(pl)(ro)(tr)

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Re: TAC 2016 (ich) German, Norwegian, Vietnamese, Spanish

Postby ich » 2017-07-21, 20:58

Hello everybody, :)

It has been a while since I updated, but despite that, I had been working on my Norwegian in the meantime. Since the last time I wrote, I completed six more circles. Unfortunately, the more circles I do, the more catching up I have to do because Duo always makes you do the most recent ones multiple times, so as a result, I am a bit behind on my reviews. I am hoping to have all my circles gold within the next two days, then I will begin a new circle again. I have only three left until my next checkpoint. At that time, I am going to put all the vocab on notecards. I also have a 5 day vacation coming up, so I think my production will slow down quite a bit after these last three circles. School is looming. I start in exactly one month. :( Time goes by quickly.
In my "Enjoy Norwegian" book, I just read another article. And I just couldn't resist. I went through and wrote all the new vocab in a separate vocab book. Argh!! I can be so anal sometimes!! Anywho, I also started reading this other book called "Norwegian: Verbs and Essentials of Grammar" by Louis Janus. It is sort of a reference book, but I still find it fun to read. I am learning a lot in that book. There is a lot I don't think I will remember, but I am picking up tidbits here and there. Also, there are many sample sentences, and I am enjoying trying to read those.

dEhiN wrote:So it seems Anki's algorithm is based on another SRS program called SuperMemo

Thanks for finding that information! That was just what I was looking for. It was a great explanation. This sounds very intriguing. This is something I am definately considering trying out. I like that you can tell the program whether you knew the word well or not. That is extremely helpful. This may be a good project for next summer.

dEhiN wrote:I found the same thing essentially: that using just Duolingo alone wasn't helpful for me. I think it might have to do with the way our brains work. Basically every time a memory is accessed in a new context, a new connection/neural pathway is made to it. So after some time, certain memories (which I assume includes vocabulary words and grammar concepts in any language) will have many connections to it, essentially signaling that that memory is important and also making it easier to access that memory. Following this logic, I thought of it this way: when I use Duolingo alone, the connections to what I learned through Duolingo were limited and specifically tied to the "Duolingo context". By using Anki and other methods to utilise what I learned, I'm creating new connections to that memory. Basically the words/grammar becomes easier to access because the memory isn't tied to a specific "Duolingo" context.

I completely agree. I can particularily feel my brain making further connections when I have learned a word with my notecards, and then find those words in a text that I read later on.

dEhiN wrote:
ich wrote:Also, I want to end this post with a question to anyone reading this. See, today I came across the phrase "helt alene." ("all alone") When I tried to guess this word, I wrote "alle alene." I've noticed in the past that every time I see "hel," the German word "ganz" tends to fit in the context quite well. I know this, and I am trying to transfer this over when I think in Norwegian, however my mother tongue is just too strong, however, when I even picture saying something like "alle alleine" or something like that, it sort of makes my skin crawl. So, apparently I have acquired this phrase. I never think about the context I need to use "ganz" in as opposed to "alle." I couldn't even explain it to someone. So, why is it that I cannot transfer this concept of "ganz" over to my Norwegian. Also, have any of you out there experienced something similar to this?

What's your mother tongue? Also I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, but that's because I don't know German! However, perhaps one reason you can't transfer a concept that works in German to Norwegian is because they are different languages? I've experience this with Romance languages: though, for example, French and Spanish are fairly similar, there are concepts in French that I can't transfer over to Spanish or vice versa. The simplest example of this would probably be the same word (that could even have the same meaning but) which are used in different contexts.

My mother tongue is English. I guess, what I was trying to ask was if anyone had the experience of finding difficult transfering a concept from one foreign language to another. As far as I am aware, "hel" in Norwegian works very similarily to the German "ganz," so in theory, I should just be able to use the word "hel" whenever I would use the word "ganz," but for some reason, my brain does not do that naturally because my English instincts are still stronger, so I still prefer to say "alle" in Norwegian for phrases like "all alone" even though it is completely wrong. This is weird to me, however, because my knowledge of German is advanced enough that I find a phrase like "alle alleine" to sound completely wrong, so it seems like I would have learned this concept already. I transfer concepts from English to my new target language, but I won't transfer concepts from my second language to my new target language, even if it is more accurate. It is like I have to start all over with acquiring this concept. I hope that made more sense than my first explanation. It is kind of a weird little thing I noticed. It is hard to explain.


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