Serafín's Summer TAC

[vijayjohn]

Yeah, it is context-specific (although it's not strictly limited to written recipes by any means - people also do that when they're giving recipes orally), but the point is that construction does exist in English (and other European languages) as well. Therefore, it isn't all that odd that German has it, too, even if it's more widely applicable in German than in some other European languages. And I'm sure you'll find the same construction used just as widely in Russian, for example.

Actually, it may even be the case that most Germanic languages have that construction like German does. Maybe it's even the case that it's the Romance languages and English that are odd for using a preposition there, since all kinds of other languages lack one in that context.

[dEhiN]

So in those contructions in German and the other languages, is one of the nouns seen as an adjective? For example, in English wine glass, wine is used in an adjectival sense to describe the type of glass. Whereas in glass of wine, even though of is used, I think of it more as a nounal phrase. (Though I suppose thinking of it in adjecival terms works too, since it technically is still describing a type of glass - just telling us what is in the glass as opposed to what the glass is used for).

In Serafin's example of Glas Wein it looks to me like Wein is being used in an adjectival sense. (Well I'm assuming that adjectives come after the noun, though tbh I don't know whether German is like English or the Romance languages in its placement of adjectives.)

[eskandar]

No, I don't think either noun is being treated as an adjective. German is like English, the adjective generally precedes the noun. But the structure in question (Glas Wein, etc.) is also used in plenty of other languages. This is how it's expressed in Turkish ([bir] şişe şarap) and Hindi/Urdu ([ek] glaas sharaab), both of which also follow the same Adjective-Noun order, as well as Persian ([yek] livaan sharaab) which has Noun-Adjective order.

I agree with Vijay in seeing this as a classifier, as in Chinese, or in English "one cup flour", etc. We have plenty of other classifiers used in English, they just usually take 'of', for example one pair of jeans, two sticks of gum, and so on. The same is true of "glass of wine". I don't agree that we can analyze "of wine" as an adjective modifying "glass" there; it is not describing the glass, as you suggested, but the wine. Specifically, it is indicating the amount of wine- how much wine? A glass of wine.

[dEhiN]

No, I don't think either noun is being treated as an adjective. German is like English, the adjective generally precedes the noun. But the structure in question (Glas Wein, etc.) is also used in plenty of other languages. This is how it's expressed in Turkish ([bir] şişe şarap) and Hindi/Urdu ([ek] glaas sharaab), both of which also follow the same Adjective-Noun order, as well as Persian ([yek] livaan sharaab) which has Noun-Adjective order.

I agree with Vijay in seeing this as a classifier, as in Chinese, or in English "one cup flour", etc. We have plenty of other classifiers used in English, they just usually take 'of', for example one pair of jeans, two sticks of gum, and so on. The same is true of "glass of wine". I don't agree that we can analyze "of wine" as an adjective modifying "glass" there; it is not describing the glass, as you suggested, but the wine. Specifically, it is indicating the amount of wine- how much wine? A glass of wine.

Huh, interesting. So in this context, what do you mean by a classifier? Similar to a determiner?

[vijayjohn]

what do you mean by a classifier? Similar to a determiner?

A classifier is something like the following:

"two sheets of paper" (instead of just "two papers")
"a cup of coffee" (instead of "a coffee")
"a glass of wine" (instead of "a wine")

And so on.

[dEhiN]

what do you mean by a classifier? Similar to a determiner?

A classifier is something like the following:

"two sheets of paper" (instead of just *two papers)
"a cup of coffee" (instead of %a coffee; % indicates that this is acceptable for some speakers but not others)
"a glass of wine" (instead of *a wine)

And so on.

Ok thanks. And a coffee isn't acceptable to some speakers? I guess for them, you need a classifier such as cup, mug, etc.? I never knew that; I'm so used to just saying "a coffee" when the drinking vessel is implied by context. Also, I could see some varieties of English that are more slang-based saying a wine. After all, a beer is pretty acceptable (to some speakers at least).

[vijayjohn]

I edited my post while you were replying to it. I'm not sure whether there are speakers it's ungrammatical for or not. And the other phrases are also acceptable (two papers, a wine) but only with very different meanings AFAIK (i.e. two research papers, a type of wine).

[dEhiN]

When I wrote

Also, I could see some varieties of English that are more slang-based saying a wine. After all, a beer is pretty acceptable (to some speakers at least).

I meant specifically in the context of asking for a glass of wine. For example, here in bars it's quite common to hear:

Waiter/waitress: What would you like?
Customer: I'd like a beer

Of course you could also replace "a beer" with a specific brand - "I'd like a Molson", for example. I know it's acceptable to do similar with types of wines - "I'd like a Merlot", but I'm not sure how it'd be perceived if someone said "I'd like a wine" to mean "I'd like a glass of wine". In the case of "a beer" the way that the establishment usually sells the brand determines the implied classifier. So if a customer say "I'd like a beer; what type?; a Rickard's Red", and Rickard's Red is on draft/draught, then a pint is implied. It's only when a beer is both on tap and in bottles that the classifier must be specified, or will be asked about.

PS. Serafin, sorry for hijacking your thread! I've just never given thought to the linguistic concept of classifiers before, in English or any language. Plus I did learn something from your post that started this!

[vijayjohn]

I meant specifically in the context of asking for a glass of wine.

Yeah, I understand that, but I have never seen evidence of that being used in any variety of English with that specific meaning, and besides:

I'm not sure how it'd be perceived if someone said "I'd like a wine" to mean "I'd like a glass of wine".

I think it would be understood as "I'd like a type of wine," which at least in this context is not a terribly different interpretation. I think that's the problem with determining whether a variety of English has "a wine" = "a glass of wine," because it already can mean "a type of wine," and even if there are varieties of English where both interpretations are possible, how are you going to determine whether in some given context it means one or the other?

[dEhiN]

I think that's the problem with determining whether a variety of English has "a wine" = "a glass of wine," because it already can mean "a type of wine," and even if there are varieties of English where both interpretations are possible, how are you going to determine whether in some given context it means one or the other?

I suppose like in the case of "a beer", one way would be based on the response. If that variety of English had contextual implication, then the action in response would indicate it. But if there was no contextual implication, then the response would (I assume) be a question requesting clarification.

[vijayjohn]

Well, whaddya know, apparently this is possible. I just found this joke.

Sorry for hijacking your thread, Serafín.

[eskandar]

Well, whaddya know, apparently this is possible. I just found this joke.

But as you know "possible" (within the confines of a joke that requires it to be worded this way in order to work) does not mean "grammatical" generally...

If I heard someone say "I'd like a wine" I'd either take them for a non-native speaker (cf. Zoidberg on Futurama, whose speech is marked by Yiddishisms or other 'Eastern European non-native English speaker' characteristics), assume they were trying to be cute, or wait for them to finish the sentence ("I'd like a wine that isn't too sweet", for example).

[Bubulus]

I certainly don't mind having my TAC thread hijacked for discussion.

But even English and Spanish do that sometimes. Think of recipes in English for example: "one cup sugar," "two tablespoons flour," etc. And it appears that at least sometimes una taza café is used in Spanish, too.

Those examples sound completely wrong to me, but I admit I've never read a cookbook in either language.

I've just never given thought to the linguistic concept of classifiers before, in English or any language. Plus I did learn something from your post that started this!

This Wikipedia article might be of your interest:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_classifiers

It's a fairly comprehensive list of Mandarin and Cantonese classifiers. Note that in Chinese almost every noun must be counted with a classifier, even human nouns like "man", "woman" or "person". (The exceptions for which no classifier is needed are the words for "day" and "year" (but not the word for "month"!), and the words of the measures themselves, as well as containers like "bowl".)

[Koko]

I'd like to put in my thoughts:

I have heard many times people say "I'll have a wine," not meaning a type of wine, but a quantity. Usually, they just mean as many cupfulls as they want from the bottle (I've not heard anybody order wine from a restaurant though, I don't think, and I think they'd ask for a glass of the type desired)

Also, I hate seeing things like "1 teaspoon sugar." So when I read it out, I say "1 teaspoon of sugar." I never leave the "of" out of classifiers , it just sounds wrong as hell to me.

As far as I know, Japanese doesn't allow anything resembling "cup coffee": a particle would still have to separate the two. Unless I'm wrong?

[Bubulus]

Log Entry for Day Eleven (of Sixty-Three)

Heh, I actually found the time and willingness to do 200 EXP of German today. Plus some more exercises from unit 15 of the Arabic textbook.

It seems to me it really turned out to be worth it to do this textbook, since there's some things about Arabic grammar I didn't know. I didn't know "hollow" form I verbs (underived verbs with w or y as the second root consonant) form the active participle with a glottal stop: qaama (< *qawama) forms qaa2imun, saara (< *sayara) forms saa2irun, and so on. I thought they would be *qaayimun and *saayirun.

Also, there exists a subordinating conjunction meaning "on the day when..."!: yawma. But really it's just the word for "day" (yawmun) in the accusative case and construct state.

One of the (read-and-translate) exercises of the unit goes:
2. يوم تسير الجبال سيراً ليخافون كلهم
yawma tasiiru l-jibaalu siiran la-yaxaafuuna kullu-hum
on.the.day.when they.sleep the.mountains.NOM sleep.ACC then-they.be.afraid all.NOM-of.them
'On the day when the mountains get to sleep, everyone will be afraid.'

[Bubulus]

Wait, what-

One of the (read-and-translate) exercises of the unit goes:
2. يوم تسير الجبال سيراً ليخافون كلهم
yawma tasiiru l-jibaalu siiran la-yaxaafuuna kullu-hum
on.the.day.when they.sleep the.mountains.NOM sleep.ACC then-they.be.afraid all.NOM-of.them
'On the day when the mountains get to sleep, everyone will be afraid.'

Clearly I was already too tired last night because this is absolutely wrong. Somehow I read saara 'to travel, depart' as naama 'to sleep'. And the -hum of kull[]-hum refers to the mountains.

So this should be:
2. يوم تسير الجبال سيراً ليخافون كلهم
yawma tasiiru l-jibaalu sayran la-yaxaafuuna kulla-hum
on.the.day.when they.depart the.mountains.NOM depart.ACC then-they.be.afraid all.ACC-of.them
'On the day when the mountains get to depart, they will be afraid of all of them.'

[eskandar]

Also, there exists a subordinating conjunction meaning "on the day when..."!: yawma. But really it's just the word for "day" (yawmun) in the accusative case and construct state.

There is also يَوْمَئِذٍ yawma-idhin "[on] that day" (typically referring to يوم القيامة or the Day of Resurrection).

[Bubulus]

This post contains my answers to lessons fifteen and sixteen. The two empty exercises appear as such because I have no idea how to solve them. I'll edit this post with the answers once I get them.

-----

Disclaimer: these are my answers for a certain unit, or certain units, of Thackston's An Introduction to Koranic and Classical Arabic. I promise no guarantee they're 100% correct. Go to the first post of this thread to see all links to the answers of the rest of the chapters.



Lesson Fifteen

Exercises

(a)
1. fii xamsi mudunin
2. thamaaniyatu rijaalin
3. min 7adiiqatayni thnatayni
4. imra2atun waa7idatun
5. fii baytayni thnayni
6. thalaathatu 2anbiyaa2a
7. sittatu 2ayaamin
8. li-thamaanii banaatin
9. 3asharatu kutubin
10. waladun waa7idun
11. sab3atu samaawaatin
12. 3asharatu 2aSaabi3a

(b)
1. 2inna n-nawma 2axuu l-mawti wa-laa yamuutu 2ahlu l-jannati
'Verily sleep is death's sibling, but [those belonging to] the tribe of Paradise shall not die'
2. yawma tasiiru l-jibaalu sayran la-yaxaafuuna kullu-hum
'On the day when the mountains depart, they will fear them all.'
3. 2inna nisaa2a qawmi-naa laa yaxafna min-a l-3aduuwi shay2an
'Verily our tribe's women are not afraid of the enemy at all.'
4. ba3athnaa 2ilay-kum thnayni yaquumaani bi-man3i-kum min-a Z-Zulmi
'We sent to you two men who would rise and prevent you from comitting injustice/tyranny.'
5. li-2abii-naa 2arba3atu 2abnaa2in wa-thalaathu banaatin wa-la-hu ka-dhaalika 2ixwaanun wa-2uxtun waa7idatun
'Our father has four sons and three daughters, and similarly has various brothers and one sister.'
6. sa-2aquumu li-s-sayri 2ilaa 2ahl-ii wa-laa 2axaafu min 2a7adin wa-hum ma3-ii
'I will go on a trip to my family as I am afraid of no one, for they will be with me.'
7. 2inna-kum la-taquluuna qawlan 3aZiiman 'Verily you have spoken greatly.'
8. wa-laa 2aquulu la-kum 3ind-ii xazaa2ina llaahi wa-laa 2a3lamu l-ghayba wa-laa 2aquulu la-kum 2inn-ii malakun
'I am not saying to you "With me is God's treasure", nor am I saying I know the unseen realm, nor am I saying I'm an angel.'
9. 2inn-ii 2axaafu 3alay-kum 3adhaabu yawmi 3aZiimin
'Verily I fear for your torment in the Day of Judgement.'
10. wa-man ya3malu min-a S-Saali7aati wa-huwa mu2minun fa-laa yaxaafu Zulman
'He who does good works is a believer, and so shall not fear injustice.'
11. allaahu lladhii xalaqa sab3a samaawaatin wa-min-a l-2arDi mithla-hunna
'God is the one who created seven heavens and their [the heavens'] likeness from the earth.'
12. 2inna llaaha laa yaZlimu n-naasa shay2an wa-laakinna n-naasa 2anfusa-hum yaZlimuuna
'Verily God doesn't wrong people at all, but people do wrong themselves.'

(c)
1. On that nearby day (the) man will flee from his brother and father.
bi-dhaalika l-yawmi l-qariibi sa-yafirru r-rajulu min 2axii-hi wa-2abii-hi
2. The angel of death, from whom you (m pl) flee, will pass over those who are more powerful than you.
2inna malaka l-mawti lladhii tafirruuna min-hu sawfa yamurru 3alaa 2ulaa2ika lladhiina 2aktharu quwwatan min-kum
3. God made only one heart in the children of Adam, and in it he placed the spirit.
fa3ala llaahu qalban waa7idan fii 2awlaadi 2adama, wa-ja3ala fii-haa r-ruu7a
4. When I called them, they put their fingers in their ears, for they were not God-fearing.
2idh da3awtu-hum la-ja3aluu 2aSaabi3a-hum fii 2aadhaani-him wa-laysuu 2atqiyaa2a
5. Humankind is a noble creation. 2inna l-bashara xalqun kariimun
6. We mentioned to the king that the enemy sent a large number of (min) their violent ones, who seized our possessions.
dhakarnaa li-l-maliki 2anna l-3aduuwa ba3atha 3adadan kabiiran min 2ashiddaa2i-him lladhiina 2axadhuu 2amwaala-naa
7. When you went astray I sent a messenger to you, and he led you aright.
lammaa Dalalta ba3athtu la-ka rasuulan wa-2inna-hu hadaa-kaa
8. Is one religion better than two? hal diinun waa7idun xayrun min-a thnayni
9. I ordered him to depart, but he did nothing.
2amartu-hu bi-l-xuruuji wa-laakin fa3ala shayran



Lesson Sixteen

Exercises

1. 2adrii 'I understand'
2. yarDawna 'I am content'
3. ya3Siina 'they (f. pl.) disobey'
4. yansawna 'they forget'
5. ta2tiina 'you (f. sg.) come, you (f. pl.) come'
6. yad3uuna 'they (m. or f.) call'
7. yabnuuna 'they (m.) build'
8. tarmiina 'you (f. sg.) throw, you (f. pl.) throw'
9. tahduuna 'you (m. pl.) lead aright'
10. ya2tuuna 'they (m.) come'
11. tarDayna 'you (f. sg.) are content, you (f. pl.) are content'
12. tansayaani 'you (dual) forget, they (dual fem.) forget'

(b)
1. 2ataytu 'I came', 2aatii 'I come'
2. raDiya 'he was content', 2arDaa 'I am content'
3. 3aSiina 'they (f. pl.) disobeyed', ya3Sayna 'they (f. pl.) disobey'
4. hadaynaa 'we led', nahdii 'we lead'
5. ramayaa 'they (dual m.) threw', yarmiyaa 'they (dual m.) throw'
6. daraytum 'you (m. pl.) understood', tadruuna 'you (m. pl.) understand'
7. nasiita 'you (m. sg.) forgot', tansaa 'you (m. sg.) forget'
8. 2ataa 'he came', ya2tii 'he comes'
9. da3awnaa 'we called', nad3uu 'we call'
10. 3aSiiti 'you (f. sg.) disobeyed', ta3Siina 'you (f. sg.) disobey'
11. raDiitum 'you (m. pl.) were content', tarDawna 'you (m. pl.) are content'
12. darat 'she understood', tadrii 'she understands'

(c)
1. 2inna 2ismaa3iila madhkuurun fii l-kitaabi wa-kaana rasuulan nabiyyan wa-kaana ya2miru 2ahla-hu bi-S-Salaati
'Verily Ismael is mentioned in the Book, being a prophet messenger and leading his people in prayer.'
2. maa kunta tadrii maa l-kutubu wa-laa l-2iimaanu wa-laakin-naa ja3alnaa nuuran nahdii bi-hi man nashaa2u
'And you did not understand what the book was or what the faith was, but we put a light by which we lead aright whoever we want.'
3. wa-maa tadrii nafsun bi-2ayyi 2arDin tamuutu
'And no soul is aware of what place it'll die.'
4. ad-dunyaa wa-l-2aaxiratu Darrataani fa-bi-qadri maa tarDaa 2a7adaa-humaa tasxaTu l-2uxraa
'The worldly life and the next life are sister wives to each other, and so to the extent they're content with each other they're also angry at each other.'
5. 2in sa2altum min xalqi s-samaawaati wa-l-2arDi la-yaquuluuna xalaqa-hunna llaahu
'If you ask about the creation of the heavens and the earth, they will say, "God created them".'
6. tanaamu 3aynaa-ya wa-laa yanaamu qalb-ii
'My eyes sleep but my heart does not sleep.'
7. wa-laqad jaa2a-hum rasuulun min-hum fa-kadhdhabuu-hu fa-2axadha-hum-u l-3adhaaba wa-hum Zaalimuuna
'And a messenger from among themselves did come to them, but then they called him a liar, and so torment took hold of them and they were wrongdoers
8. wa-2idh ja3ala s-saamiriiyu 3ijlan la-banaa 2israa2iilu qaala haadhaa 2ilaahu-kum wa-2ilaahu muusaa fa-3abaduu-hu wa-nasuu llaaha
'And when the Samaritan put a calf Israel had built, he said, "this is your god and Moses' god, and so they worshipped it forgetting about God".' (This exercise is an adaptation of suurat Taha 88.)
9. fa-2idhaa jaa2a muusaa qaala yaa haruunu maa mana3a-ka 2idh ra2ayta-hum Dalluu 2allaa tattabi3a-nii
'And so when Moses came, he also said, "O Aaron, what prevented you, when you saw them having gone astray, from following me?"'
10. yahdii llaahu li-nuuri-hi man yashaa2u 'God leads anybody who wants to His light.'
11. 2inn-ii 2axaafu, 2in 3aSayta rabb-ii, 3adhaaba yawmin 3aZiimin
'Verily I fear the torment of the Day of Judgement, if you disobey my Lord.'

(d)
1. We arose and travelled and did not sleep while traveling.
qumnaa li-sayrin wa-maa nimnaa qaa2imiina
2. We are rich, and they are poor; but we have not oppressed them.
na7nu 2aghniyaa2u wa-hum fuqaraa2u wa-laakin maa Zalamnaa-hum
3. I saw a light in the house, but when I looked (in) I did not see anyone.
ra2aytu nuuran fii l-bayti, wa-laakin 2idh naZartu fii-hi la-maa ra2aytu 2a7adan
4. They do (3amila) good works (generic sense, use definite article), and that is better for them than tyranny.
ya3maluuna S-Saali7aati wa-dhaalika xayrun la-hum min-a Z-Zulmi
5. When the Children of Israel disobeyed Moses and forgot their faith, he cursed them violently.
2idhaa 3aSaa 2awlaadu 2israa2iila muusaa wa-nasuu 2iimaana-hum la-la3ana-hum la3nan shadiidan
6. Have you ever heard the likes of this?
hal sami3ta 2ashyaa2a mithla haadhaa
7. I do not know which of the unbelievers is the most disobedient.
laa 2adrii 2anna 2ayya kaafirin-i l-2ashaddu ma3Siyatan

[Bubulus]

Log Entry for Day Twelve (of Sixty-Three)

I did 250 EXP in Duolingo German, and units 15 and 16 of the Arabic textbook, making up for Saturday.

I was really surprised to find that the adjective wert 'worth' of the expresion es wert sein 'to be worth it' actually takes a complement in the accusative case: Einen Versuch ist es wert 'It's worth a try'. An adjective with an accusative complement! I was also told it's not possible to scramble this as Es ist wert einen Versuch, so there's also that.

As I was looking for an English equivalent of Arabic Darra (the term for a co-wife in a polygamous marriage, as in "he's my husband and she's my Darra"), I also learned that the LDS church uses "sister wife" for that.

[Bubulus]

Log Entry for Day Thirteen (of Sixty-Three)

I did 210 EXP in Duolingo German, and did some of the exercises of unit 17 of the Arabic textbook.

All these past days I've been doing the Duolingo German ~200 EXP with no regard whatsoever to the time it took me to do it. I thought it was a little over an hour, but today I paid attention to how long it took me, and whoa it was two hours and a half... Admittedly I was chatting with people there and there at the same time, but it's still much longer than I thought.

From now on I will also be reading a couple books on Classical Chinese, specifically William H. Baxter & Laurent Sagart's Old Chinese: A New Reconstruction (2014) on the pronunciation of Old Chinese, and Lukáš Zádrapa's Word-Class Flexibility in Classical Chinese: Verbal and Adverbial Uses of Nouns (2011) on the language's word classes. I won't set a daily minimum of reading, instead, I will read them under no pressure, posting summaries of every chapter of these two books as I read them. This is in preparation of my bigger project in sight: writing a goddamn good Wikipedia article on the grammar of Classical Chinese. The article in question has been in a really bad state since ever.

EDIT: Although I should clarify that writing such an article is not part of my TAC, but rather something I'll be working on after the TAC. The reading is part of the TAC.