TAC Meera 2013

[mōdgethanc]

I think the first two are pronounced closer to something like [nɛhʋ] and [nɛɦˈʋi] (or possibly [nɛhəʋ] and [nɛɦəʋi]). Generally an Urdu zebar becomes something like [ɛ] before an 'h' or an 'ayn'. The zer in علم should be similarly affected (giving us [ɛlm], cf. اعتبار [ɛtɪbar]) but when I think about how I've actually heard it pronounced, it seems to remain as [ɪlm] for some reason.

I have no idea what a zer or zebar is but I'm guessing they're the same as fatha and kisra. In that case, they should be [nɛhʋ] and [nɛɦʋi] because schwas get deleted in many places in Hindustani, like at the end of words. (Except for यज्ञ which I think should have a schwa because that's just awkward otherwise.) I'm pretty sure that it should be [ɪlm] because while schwas change to /ɛ/ in Hindustani sometimes, I don't think /ɪ/ ever does.

[eskandar]

I have no idea what a zer or zebar is but I'm guessing they're the same as fatha and kisra. In that case, they should be [nɛhʋ] and [nɛɦʋi] because schwas get deleted in many places in Hindustani, like at the end of words. (Except for यज्ञ which I think should have a schwa because that's just awkward otherwise.) I'm pretty sure that it should be [ɪlm] because while schwas change to /ɛ/ in Hindustani sometimes, I don't think /ɪ/ ever does.

Yes, zer and zebar are the Urdu (ultimately Persian) names for kasra and fatha. Hindustani also often breaks up consonant clusters, thus [nɛhəʋ] should be a possible common realization of نحر just as بحث is realized as [bɛhɛs] more often than [bɛhs] and بحر becomes [bɛhɛr] rather than [bɛhr]. Actually that just made me realize that I should have suggested [nɛhɛʋ] not [nɛhəʋ] and indeed searching the romanized Urdusphere for 'nehev' turns up plenty of results. Then again there are exceptions like مہدی which is [mɛhdi] and not [mɛhɛdi] as we might predict. I take back my suggestion of [nɛɦəʋi] though and would stick with [nɛɦʋi] because the final vowel eliminates the consonant cluster issue.

As for عِلم , I do indeed hear [ɪlm] but in other cases /ɪ/ is most typically realized as [ɛ] before an /h/ or an 'ayn, as I cited اعتبار [ɛtɛbar] not *[i'tibar] but also احتجاج [ɛhtijaj] not *[ihtijaj], احسان [ɛhsan] not *[ihsan], etc.

[mōdgethanc]

Oh, that makes sense. Arabic loans often have somewhat awkward consonant clusters for someone who doesn't speak that language.

And I did not know that about the lowered vowels. Maybe that's an Urdu-specific thing?

[eskandar]

And I did not know that about the lowered vowels. Maybe that's an Urdu-specific thing?

I may be out of my element here as I've never studied Hindi, but I really don't think this is Urdu-specific. I've never seen anything that claims that Hindi and Urdu have any phonetic difference as far as vowels are concerned. Normally I wouldn't suggest Wikipedia as a source, but the Wikipedia article on Hindustani phonology is well-sourced, and has this to say:

In addition, [ɛ] occurs as a conditioned allophone of /ə/ (schwa) in proximity to /h/, if and only if the /h/ is surrounded on both sides by two schwas.[6] For example, in /kəh(ə)naː/ (कहना – کَہنا 'to say'), the /h/ is surrounded on both sides by schwa, hence both the schwas will become fronted to short [ɛ], giving the pronunciation [kɛh(ɛ)naː]. Syncopation of phonemic middle schwa can further occur to give [kɛh.naː]. The fronting also occurs in word-final /h/, presumably because a lone consonant carries an unpronounced schwa. Hence, /kəh(ə)/ (कह – کَہ 'say!') becomes [kɛh] in actual pronunciation. However, the fronting of schwa does not occur in words with a schwa only on one side of the /h/ such as /kəhaːniː/ (कहानी – کَہانی 'a story') or /baːhər/ (बाहर – باہَر 'outside').

[mōdgethanc]

I did know that stuff. I just mean the shift from /ɪ/ to /ɛ/ in some words you were talking about. I'm thinking that might be Persian influence since words with /i/ in Arabic become /e/ in Persian. Does that make sense?

[eskandar]

I understand what you're saying but don't think it's a possible explanation. The Arabic kasra is pronounced as [ɛ] only in some contemporary dialects of Iranian Persian and not in the historical and regional varieties of Persian that entered the subcontinent. Furthermore if this were the case we'd expect to hear [ɛ] everywhere instead of [ɪ] and not just in limited contexts. I'm attaching Teach Yourself Urdu's discussion of this, from which you can see that it applies to the most common Hindustani words ('ye', 'vo', etc.) and therefore isn't limited to Urdu.

urdu1.png

urdu2.png

[mōdgethanc]

Thanks, eskandar! That's very enlightening.

[eskandar]

You're welcome, glad I could clear that up.

[Meera]

I finally got my Routledge Hindi reader I haven't properly used it but I skimmed through it and it seems pretty awesome.

[Bijlee]

Does it look as good as Usha Jain's?

[Meera]

Does it look as good as Usha Jain's?

Yes to be honest I think it's a little better because it deals with current things. For example the first chapter deals with social media.

[TeneReef]

Why there is no Japanese flag in your signature?

[Meera]

Why there is no Japanese flag in your signature?

I will add it now

[Meera]

So I was in the hospital since Saturday with a horrible sinus infection and didn't have anytime to do languages Hopefully I will get back to it soon.

[vijayjohn]

Geez, that's terrible! I'm so sorry to hear that. How do you feel now? Are you back from the hospital now?

[Meera]

Geez, that's terrible! I'm so sorry to hear that. How do you feel now? Are you back from the hospital now?

Yeah I'm back from the hospital now, I feel a little better but the infection is still there I'm so happy to be home though

[Bijlee]

Arre Meera!
Mujhe asha hai ki ab sab thik hai! To tumhara infection kafi kharab tha?

[Meera]

Arre Meera!
Mujhe asha hai ki ab sab thik hai! To tumhara infection kafi kharab tha?

Haan bahut kharab tha. mera "blood stream" mein tha.

[TeneReef]

In /devnagri/ please

[vijayjohn]

Why? Are you having trouble figuring out how to pronounce everything that Bijlee and Meera just said or something? I think you can just write it out in Google Input Tools, and you should be able to get the right result:

बिजली: अरे मीरा! मुझे आशा है कि सब ठीक है! तो तुम्हारा इन्फेक्शन काफ़ी ख़राब था?
मीरा: हाँ बहुत ख़राब था. मेरा "ब्लड स्ट्रीम" में था.