dEhiN's Language Log

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby kevin » 2021-06-24, 7:58

księżycowy wrote:"Felt"? :silly:

Ná bí dána, a Phóil!

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » 2021-06-24, 17:21

kevin wrote:
księżycowy wrote:"Felt"? :silly:

Ná bí dána, a Phóil!

You should see some of the things he says in our Discord chat! (I used GT for what you said, and it gave me, "Don't be naught, Paul!" I hope that's a good translation, if not, my reply may not apply! :D )

Also, apparently Paul has forgotten how to count in Irish. This morning, I gave him a challenge because he was bored: count to 100 but switch languages every 10 numbers, and you can't use English. Of course, Vijay took up the challenge and passed it no problem. His languages of choice? Arabic, Amharic, Mandarin Chinese, Vlax Romani, Turkish, Malayalam, Swahili, Basque, Persian and Russian.

I guess 5-6 of them are relatively common languages studied in the language learning community, so maybe I shouldn't be so surprised. It's sad though because I only ever learned 1-5 in German the few times I've picked it up, and even then I had to ask Paul what they were. I still remember 1-10 in Japanese, but I completely forget Korean, even though I took a whole college semester worth of it.

I suppose if someone else who doesn't consider English to be a native language were doing this, the rule would probably be to not use their native language(s). In my case, I could only really do 1-40:

Japanese: ichi, ni, san, shi, go, roku, shichi, hachi, kyou, juu

Portuguese: onze, doze, treze, quatorze, quinze, dezesseis, dezessete, dezoito, dezenove, vinte

Spanish: veintiuno, veintidós, veintitrés, veinticuatro, veinticinco, veintiséis, veintisiete, veintiocho, veintinueve, treinta

Tamil: muppathinondu, muppathirandu, muppathimuundu, muppathinaala, muppathinainju, muppathinaaRu, muppathineezhu, muppathineTTu, muppathinonbathu, naapathu

French: quarante et un, quarante-deux, quarante-trois, quarante-quatre, quarante-cinq, quarante-six, quarante-sept, quarante-huit, quarante-neuf, cinquante

Wow, that was a lot harder than I thought! I admit, I had to look up the spellings for several of them, particuarly between Spanish and Portuguese.
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby księżycowy » 2021-06-24, 17:55

I couldn't even do up to ten in most of the languages I've studied.

Irish: a haon, a dó, a trí.....
Polish: Fuck that.
German: ein, zwei, drei, vier, fünf, sechs, sieben, ocht, neun, zehn
Japanese: ichi, ni, san, yon, go, roku, nana, hachi, kyou, juu
That's about it.

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby Rí.na.dTeangacha » 2021-06-24, 17:58

I hate counting. Numbers are stupid and boring and I hate them.

NB: I understand numbers are important, thank you numbers for all you have done! :P
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-06-24, 18:58

Yay, I can make it to 90!

Mandarin (1-4): yi, er, san, si... [....] nope
Japanese (1-4): ichi, ni, san, shi... [.....] nope ichi, ni, san, yon... [.....] nope

Russian 1-10: один, два, три, четыре, пять, шесть, семь, восемь, девять, десять

Hmong 11-20: kaum ib, kaum ob, kaum peb, kaum plaum, kaum tsib, kaum rau, kaum xya, kaum yim, kaum cuaj, nees nkaum

German 21-30: einundzwanzig, zweiundzwanzig, dreiundzwanzig, vierundzwanzig, fünfundzwanzig, sechsundzwanzig, siebenundzwanzig, achtundzwanzig, neunundzwanzig, dreissig

Finnish 31-40: kolmekymmentäyksi, kolmekymmentäkaksi, kolmekymmentäkolme, kolmekymmentäneljä, kolmekymmentäviisi, kolmekymmentäkuusi, kolmekymmentäseitsemän, kolmekymmentäkahdeksan, kolmekymmentäyhdeksän, neljäkymmentä

Estonian 41-50: nelikümmend üks, nelikümmend kaks, nelikümmend kolm, nelikümmend neli, nelikümmend viis, nelikümmend kuus, nelikümmend seitse, nelikümmend kaheksa, nelikümmend üheksa, viiskümmend

Spanish 51-60: cincuenta y uno, cincuenta y dos, cincuenta y tres, cincuenta y cuatro, cincuenta y cinco, cincuenta y seis, cincuenta y siete, cincuenta y ocho, cincuenta y nueve, sesenta

Võro 71-80: säidsekümmend ütś, säidsekümmend katś, säidsekümmend kolm, säidsekümmend neli, säidsekümmend viiś, säidsekümmend kuuś, säidsekümmend säidse, säidsekümmend katõssa, säidsekümmend ütessä, katõssakümmend

French 81-90: quatre-vingt-un, quatre-vingt-deux, quatre-vingt-trois, quatre-vingt-quatre, quatre-vingt-cinq, quatre-vingt-six, quatre-vingt-sept, quatre-vingt-huit, quatre-vingt-neuf, quatre-vingt-dix

Of course, the key is to be strategic. I can't count past 10 in Russian, for example, so it would have been a waste to start with anything else. And I can't count all that well in French anymore either but those 80's have stuck with me 'cause they're so... French.
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » 2021-06-24, 19:20

Rí.na.dTeangacha wrote:I hate counting. Numbers are stupid and boring and I hate them.

NB: I understand numbers are important, thank you numbers for all you have done! :P

Lol, I remember when I first learned that French uses both numéro and chiffre for the word numbers and you pick which one to use depending on context, I was like, "well, that's dumb!" :D Now, I've gotten a little more used to it, but I still am never fully sure whenever I use one versus the other. Fortunately, I know most native speakers will understand me.

I remember when Vijay was counting, I told him how I'm jealous and how does he do it, and his response was that it's pretty easy. I told him though that the numbers weren't one of the first things I learned in a language. Like, I studied Swedish seriously several times, and I don't recall learning any of the numbers, even 1-10, except maybe once? I guess there would be a difference between using a textbook of some sort versus randomly picking up shit. Most texts for beginners would, I imagine, include counting from 1 to 10.

Linguaphile wrote:Yay, I can make it to 90!

Nice!

Linguaphile wrote:Mandarin (1-4): yi, er, san, si... [....] nope
Japanese (1-4): ichi, ni, san, shi... [.....] nope ichi, ni, san, yon... [.....] nope

I love this, especially the double attempt with Japanese! :D

Of course, the key is to be strategic. I can't count past 10 in Russian, for example, so it would have been a waste to start with anything else. And I can't count all that well in French anymore either but those 80's have stuck with me 'cause they're so... French.

Very impressive list! And I agree about the strategic part; that's why I use Japanese for 1-10 and then Spanish and Portuguese for 10-30. I'm stronger in Tamil up to 89, and I'm very strong in French for pretty much all numbers (or at least up to 999). It's a shame though about Spanish and Portuguese because I've learned them and know them. I just use them so infrequently, especially in writing, that I've forgotten a lot of the spelling intricacies.
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby Dormouse559 » 2021-06-24, 20:09

dEhiN wrote:Lol, I remember when I first learned that French uses both numéro and chiffre for the word numbers and you pick which one to use depending on context, I was like, "well, that's dumb!" :D Now, I've gotten a little more used to it, but I still am never fully sure whenever I use one versus the other. Fortunately, I know most native speakers will understand me.

It does take a while to pick the meanings apart, but there is method to the madness. Numéro is mainly for numbers as identifiers, so that's why you say numéro de téléphone. Chiffre refers to numbers as symbols, similar to "numeral" or "figure". And it's important not to forget nombre, which is used for quantities and grammatical number, as well as for numbers as abstract mathematical entities (e.g. nombre rationnel "rational number").
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » 2021-06-25, 3:29

Dormouse559 wrote:
dEhiN wrote:Lol, I remember when I first learned that French uses both numéro and chiffre for the word numbers and you pick which one to use depending on context, I was like, "well, that's dumb!" :D Now, I've gotten a little more used to it, but I still am never fully sure whenever I use one versus the other. Fortunately, I know most native speakers will understand me.

It does take a while to pick the meanings apart, but there is method to the madness. Numéro is mainly for numbers as identifiers, so that's why you say numéro de téléphone. Chiffre refers to numbers as symbols, similar to "numeral" or "figure". And it's important not to forget nombre, which is used for quantities and grammatical number, as well as for numbers as abstract mathematical entities (e.g. nombre rationnel "rational number").

Can't numbers as identifiers also be used in quantity situations? Oh, but I guess when the noun number is used, if it's in the context of quantity, then nombre is used? What about a code? For example, one of the programs we use at work to remote into someone's computer involves a six-digit id assigned to each computer. In English, I would usually just say, "what's your computer's id". In French, I think I say, "quel est le numéro de votre ordinateur". Would that be correct or should I say chiffre or even a more direct translation from English, "quel est l'identification de votre ordinateur"?

By the way, thanks for the explanation. While, over the years, I've gotten a sense of then to use numéro versus chiffre, learning the specific method to the madness helps!

Speaking of French, there's one French Canadian user (i.e., employee of a client) who has used sa for ça several times and has also once used ce for se in the context of a reflexive verb. It was specifically se connecter (so the infinitive form), and he wrote ce connecter. I think he also has written a few times cEst for c'est, which is weird to me as well, because the first time I saw him write that, I thought perhaps the capital E was being used in place of the accented é as a shortcut, but there's no accent in c'est. Oh, unless, he's using the capital in place of searching for the apostrophe. I'm not sure which keyboard layout he uses, but if it's us-international, like I use, then because apostrophe + e gives é, you have to specifically type apostrophe, space and then e to get 'e. And I think for the french canadian standard layout, there's a key specifically for é but it's probably harder to get just an apostrophe. Although, I've seen him type l'ordi before for l'ordinateur, so I don't know if that would be the real reason.

Also, can both libre and disponible be used in the context of free time or availability? I initially used libre but then saw the French users respond with dispo, so I switched to disponible. But then I think I saw some French text somewhere that used libre in the same context, so now I'm not sure. I know libre is used for free in the sense of freedom of speech, free software, etc. But can it also be used for one's availability?
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby Dormouse559 » 2021-06-25, 5:21

dEhiN wrote:Can't numbers as identifiers also be used in quantity situations?

Could you elaborate? I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.

Oh, but I guess when the noun number is used, if it's in the context of quantity, then nombre is used?

Yeah, particularly if you want to talk about a "number of" things. « J'ai lu un grand nombre de livres sur ce sujet ».

What about a code? For example, one of the programs we use at work to remote into someone's computer involves a six-digit id assigned to each computer. In English, I would usually just say, "what's your computer's id". In French, I think I say, "quel est le numéro de votre ordinateur". Would that be correct or should I say chiffre or even a more direct translation from English, "quel est l'identification de votre ordinateur"?

A bit of both: « Quel est le numéro d'identification de votre ordinateur ? » But I imagine numéro on its own would also work in context.

By the way, thanks for the explanation. While, over the years, I've gotten a sense of then to use numéro versus chiffre, learning the specific method to the madness helps!

Sure thing :)

Speaking of French, there's one French Canadian user (i.e., employee of a client) who has used sa for ça several times and has also once used ce for se in the context of a reflexive verb. It was specifically se connecter (so the infinitive form), and he wrote ce connecter. I think he also has written a few times cEst for c'est, which is weird to me as well, because the first time I saw him write that, I thought perhaps the capital E was being used in place of the accented é as a shortcut, but there's no accent in c'est. Oh, unless, he's using the capital in place of searching for the apostrophe. I'm not sure which keyboard layout he uses, but if it's us-international, like I use, then because apostrophe + e gives é, you have to specifically type apostrophe, space and then e to get 'e. And I think for the french canadian standard layout, there's a key specifically for é but it's probably harder to get just an apostrophe. Although, I've seen him type l'ordi before for l'ordinateur, so I don't know if that would be the real reason.

Switching ce and se is an extremely common typo; I see it all the time in Facebook comments. Sa for ça can appear in informal typing or texts, since keyboards are more likely to support S than Ç, or at least make S easier to type. I haven't come across cEst before, but your explanation sounds plausible.

Also, can both libre and disponible be used in the context of free time or availability? I initially used libre but then saw the French users respond with dispo, so I switched to disponible. But then I think I saw some French text somewhere that used libre in the same context, so now I'm not sure. I know libre is used for free in the sense of freedom of speech, free software, etc. But can it also be used for one's availability?

Yes, both words can be used for availability.
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby kevin » 2021-06-25, 22:15

dEhiN wrote:You should see some of the things he says in our Discord chat! (I used GT for what you said, and it gave me, "Don't be naught, Paul!" I hope that's a good translation, if not, my reply may not apply! :D )

I'm almost tempted to ask for the link, but I already spend too much time on Discord...

Also, apparently Paul has forgotten how to count in Irish.

Very disappointing. But then, he always forgets to participate in the study groups he started himself, so maybe we can't set the expectations too high?

I suppose if someone else who doesn't consider English to be a native language were doing this, the rule would probably be to not use their native language(s). In my case, I could only really do 1-40

I noticed that I have trouble finding Romance languages where I know all ten numbers in a row. Let me see what else I can use.

Spanish: uno, dos, tres, cuatro, cinco, seis, siete, ocho, nueve, diez
Czech: jedenáct, dvanáct, třináct, čtvrnáct, patnáct, šestnáct, sedmnáct, osmnáct, devatenáct, dvacet
Irish: fiche a haon, fiche a dó, fiche a trí, fiche a ceathair, fiche a cúig, fiche a sé, fiche a seacht, fiche a hocht, fiche a naoi, tríocha
Dutch: eenendertig, tweeëndertig, drieëndertig, vierendertig, vijfendertig, zesendertig, zevenendertig, achtendertig, negenendertig, veertig

I could add English, German and Swabian, depending on what the exact English/native language rule is, but I don't think I can do 41-50 in any other language.

Rí.na.dTeangacha wrote:I hate counting. Numbers are stupid and boring and I hate them.

That numbers are generally too boring must be a common Irish sentiment. Or at least it would explain the numbers in Irish. :lol:

Nothing beats five boat teen big and three twenties. (And yes, I know this forum well enough that I am fully prepared to be proved wrong.)

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby księżycowy » 2021-06-25, 22:53

Don't ask me to spell it (though I probably could get most of it right), but I just remember 1-10 in Irish!

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby Rí.na.dTeangacha » 2021-06-26, 10:53

kevin wrote:
Rí.na.dTeangacha wrote:I hate counting. Numbers are stupid and boring and I hate them.

That numbers are generally too boring must be a common Irish sentiment. Or at least it would explain the numbers in Irish. :lol:

Nothing beats five boat teen big and three twenties.


There seem to be very few languages that are happy to just leave a nice, simple counting system unmarred by some strange complexity. Japanese, for example, has a very elegant system - one, two, three etc.. ten, ten-one, ten-two etc..., two-ten, two-ten-one, two-ten-two etc... But then they had to go and have dozens of different counters for different classes of noun, it makes duine, beirt, triúir look completely sane.

I'll be honest, when I see a long number in the middle of a text, even when reading in English, I usually don't bother "saying" it in my head, I just think "bla bla bla".
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » 2021-06-26, 19:26

kevin wrote:I'm almost tempted to ask for the link, but I already spend too much time on Discord...

I can give it to you if you'd like. Or I'll pm you my Discord name and you can add me as a friend, then I can share it with you. It's just Meera, Hidson, Vijay and me. It was called "los cuatro amigos" before Hidson joined, and now it's "năm người bạn", which apparently means the five friends in Vietnamese. If you joined, we'd have to pick another language though (and no, Paul, we're not doing another SEA language...I could be persuaded to consider a micro/mela/polynesian language that's part of the greater Austronesian family).

kevin wrote:Very disappointing. But then, he always forgets to participate in the study groups he started himself, so maybe we can't set the expectations too high?

Yeah, I'm starting to think when he dies, we should convince his parents to take all his language learning materials and start up a centre for the preservation of minority and endangered languages.

kevin wrote:Czech: jedenáct, dvanáct, třináct, čtvrnáct, patnáct, šestnáct, sedmnáct, osmnáct, devatenáct, dvacet

WIthout looking anything up, I guess Czech is similar to English where a form of or the word for ten is appended to the end of the number? Compare -teen vs -náct.

kevin wrote:Irish: fiche a haon, fiche a dó, fiche a trí, fiche a ceathair, fiche a cúig, fiche a sé, fiche a seacht, fiche a hocht, fiche a naoi, tríocha

What does a mean in Irish - and? I wonder how English got four, since it looks like Irish (and presumably, by extension, the Celtic branch in general) uses a form more similar to that found in the Romance languages where the number starts with /k/ and includes some form of /t/ or /θ/. Though, I guess English does have the word fourth.

kevin wrote:Nothing beats five boat teen big and three twenties.

Ok, you'll definitely have to explain this to me, the non-Irish speaker in this convo.

kevin wrote:And yes, I know this forum well enough that I am fully prepared to be proved wrong.)

Interesting, for me, it feels more natural to say "to be proven wrong". I wonder if that's a (North) American vs British English thing.

Rí.na.dTeangacha wrote:There seem to be very few languages that are happy to just leave a nice, simple counting system unmarred by some strange complexity. Japanese, for example, has a very elegant system - one, two, three etc.. ten, ten-one, ten-two etc..., two-ten, two-ten-one, two-ten-two etc... But then they had to go and have dozens of different counters for different classes of noun, it makes duine, beirt, triúir look completely sane.

According to Vijay, none of the Indo-Aryan languages have a pattern up to 100 at all, so you literally have to memorize each number. He tried showing an example once, but I swear, for me it seemed like there was a pattern. Chances are I was just glossing similar looking words together into a pattern.

Rí.na.dTeangacha wrote:I'll be honest, when I see a long number in the middle of a text, even when reading in English, I usually don't bother "saying" it in my head, I just think "bla bla bla".

Haha, I can TOTALLY relate! I don't even think "bla bla bla", I will just skip ahead for certain things like long numbers in the middle of a text, or sometimes for years or even just other minutiae that I deem unnecessary. Probably at least half the time though, I shoot myself in the foot because later I get confused and have to back and explicitly re-read waht I skipped over! :D
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby Dormouse559 » 2021-06-26, 20:13

dEhiN wrote:I wonder how English got four, since it looks like Irish (and presumably, by extension, the Celtic branch in general) uses a form more similar to that found in the Romance languages where the number starts with /k/ and includes some form of /t/ or /θ/. Though, I guess English does have the word fourth.

All roads lead to Proto-Indo-European :P "Four", ceathair and the Romance words all come from PIE *kʷetwóres. On the way to Proto-Germanic, /kʷ/ shifted to /p/, which in turn became /f/, and that's why most Germanic languages' words for "four" begin with /f/ or /v/. The Celtic and Romance progenitors kept /kʷ/, and it was only in certain of their descendants that /kʷ/ became a labial (see Eastern Romance, Sardinian, Brythonic).

The /θ/ in "fourth" is actually unconnected. The /t/ you see in Romance words like quatre and cuatro comes from the /t/ in *kʷetwóres. That sound was elided in most Germanic reflexes.
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby księżycowy » 2021-06-26, 22:43

dEhiN wrote:
kevin wrote:I'm almost tempted to ask for the link, but I already spend too much time on Discord...

I can give it to you if you'd like. Or I'll pm you my Discord name and you can add me as a friend, then I can share it with you. It's just Meera, Hidson, Vijay, Paul, and me. It was called "los cuatro amigos" before Hidson joined, and now it's "năm người bạn", which apparently means the five friends in Vietnamese. If you joined, we'd have to pick another language though (and no, Paul, we're not doing another SEA language...I could be persuaded to consider a micro/mela/polynesian language that's part of the greater Austronesian family).

Алты дос - it is decided.

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby księżycowy » 2021-06-26, 22:46

dEhiN wrote:
kevin wrote:Irish: fiche a haon, fiche a dó, fiche a trí, fiche a ceathair, fiche a cúig, fiche a sé, fiche a seacht, fiche a hocht, fiche a naoi, tríocha

What does a mean in Irish - and?

No, it's just the particle that is added when counting: a haon, a dó, etc. It's just in the middle because that's how the bigger numbers work. Cf. of what happens to the definite article between two nouns, if my memory serves me right. I'm sure kevin or Linguoboy could explain more, if you're interested.

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby kevin » 2021-06-27, 20:22

dEhiN wrote:WIthout looking anything up, I guess Czech is similar to English where a form of or the word for ten is appended to the end of the number? Compare -teen vs -náct.

Yes, basically. Just some minor changes in the number, like pět -> patnáct or devět -> devatenáct.

What does a mean in Irish - and?

I can't add much to the explanation that you were already given. Just a particle before standalone numbers. You don't use it for counting objects, so you get "a cúig" for the number five, but "cúig bhád" (five boats) without "a".

I wonder how English got four, since it looks like Irish (and presumably, by extension, the Celtic branch in general) uses a form more similar to that found in the Romance languages where the number starts with /k/ and includes some form of /t/ or /θ/. Though, I guess English does have the word fourth.

Sometimes people are even talking of a Italo-Celtic group, so similarities between Romance and Celtic are not too uncommon. Germanic tends to be a bit more different.

Also probably worth mentioning, while Old Irish indeed still had /θ/, <th> is pronounced /h/ in Modern Irish. Still the same origin, of course. /k/ isn't true of all Celtic languages either, Brythonic has /p/ like in Welsh "pedwar".

kevin wrote:Nothing beats five boat teen big and three twenties.

Ok, you'll definitely have to explain this to me, the non-Irish speaker in this convo.

a cúig déag = fifteen
cúig bhád déag = fifteen boats (the -teen comes after the counted object)
cúig bhád déag mhóra = fifteen big boats (adjectives stay after the -teen)
cúig bhád déag mhóra is trí fichid = 75 big boats (vigesimal system: 15 big boats and 3x20)

These days, decimal "cúig bhád mhóra is seachtó" (five big boats and seventy) would be more common, but also more boring. ;)

Interesting, for me, it feels more natural to say "to be proven wrong". I wonder if that's a (North) American vs British English thing.

I was actually wondering which one is better.

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby księżycowy » 2021-06-28, 13:50

kevin wrote:I can't add much to the explanation that you were already given. Just a particle before standalone numbers. You don't use it for counting objects, so you get "a cúig" for the number five, but "cúig bhád" (five boats) without "a".

Good, my memory isn't as faulty as I feared. :P

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby kevin » 2021-06-28, 14:19

księżycowy wrote:Good, my memory isn't as faulty as I feared. :P

If you want to avoid having such fears in the future, you know what you need to do. :P

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby linguoboy » 2021-06-28, 14:42

Who hath summoned me to this thread?

kevin wrote:
What does a mean in Irish - and?

I can't add much to the explanation that you were already given. Just a particle before standalone numbers. You don't use it for counting objects, so you get "a cúig" for the number five, but "cúig bhád" (five boats) without "a".

a is easily the hardest-working particle in Irish. In some case, we can tell it's a worn-down version of a preposition (mainly do), but the a used before numerals already has this form in Old Irish, so it's difficult to say where it ultimately comes from. AFAIK, there's nothing similar in Brythonic or the Continental Celtic languages.

In addition to being used in counting, a also appears in certain contexts where English would have an ordinal, e.g. Séamas II/Séamas a Dó = James II/James the Second. It's also necessary where the number is used to distinguish entities, e.g. RTÉ a hAon (RTÉ One), RTÉ a Dó (RTÉ2).
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons


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