languagepotato's blog (RO, HR)

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languagepotato's blog (RO, HR)

Postby languagepotato » 2019-07-11, 16:12

I'm quite bad at remembering to log, so let's try this again this summer

Motivation:

Romanian - I've dabbled on an off again with this language but this time, i'm gonna try to finally finish that duolingo tree in a slow and steady kind of way.

Croatian - I've got some friends from former Yugoslavia whom I want to surprise, and quite a few of them are croatian. Also, I just wanna learn a language that feels almost new yet has many ties to the languages i already speak.

Strategy:

Romanian: Duolingoing with the waterfall method; start at the top and “waterfall” your way down, but after each new skill you go right back to the beginning and do them all again to the next crown level before you move on to the next one, and still listening to those beautiful romanian songs, when time permits i'll be watching romanian tv shows. after this stage: speak with my romanian friends (i'm not sure how well that'll go but we'll see then)

Croatian: i'm starting with an adapted version of gabriel wyner's fluent-forever method;
i'm learning my vocabulary thematic rather than alphabetic;
https://fluent-forever.com/wp-content/u ... ematic.pdf
tomorrow, it's gonna be colors, the words above them I have already practiced at least once and are all in my deck.

i'm immediately declining nouns and adjectives the moment i come across them, and if i find a pattern i decline/conjugate before i actually look at the declension/conjugation table:

This is how Croatian noun declension now looks like in my head:
masculine nouns (I know there's a distinction between animate and inanimate but i haven't come across that many animate masculine nouns, so i don't know the difference):

case: s | pl
nom: stem |stem+ i
gen: stem+a |stem+ a
dat: stem+u | stem+ima
acc: stem | stem+e
loc: stem +e | stem+i
voc: stem+u | stem+ima
in: stem + om | stem + ima

if it's one syllable, stem = stem+ov in plural

for neuter nouns, almost the same endings for singular nom/acc/loc = stem +o/e (depends on nominative):
in plural, neuter nouns have the same endings whenever masculine uses -ima all other plural forms are stem+a


for feminine nouns:

nom: stem+a |stem+ e
gen: stem+e |stem+ a
dat: stem+i | stem+ama
acc: stem+u | stem+e
loc: stem +o | stem+e
voc: stem+i | stem+ama
in: stem + om | stem + ama

if the stem ends in k:
it changes to c before an i

i haven't learned any adjectives (though that will have changed tomorrow) or verbs yet. also, if you're a native speaker of BCMS, please correct me if i got any of this wrong.
native: (ar-MA) (nl)
very comfortable: (en-US)
somewhat comfortable: (de) (es) (af)
forgetting: (fr) (ar-arb)
touristy level: (ro) (sv)(ber)(pl)
someday hopefully: (ja) (sq) (cs) (tr) and many others

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Re: languagepotato's blog (RO, HR)

Postby voron » 2019-07-11, 19:58

BCS has a syncretism of dative and locative (except for a few marginal cases where only the stress is different). In your table, you need to replace all entries for locative with the ones for dative.

Also, vocative plural is identical to nominative plural.

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Re: languagepotato's blog (RO, HR)

Postby languagepotato » 2019-07-12, 13:56

Romanian:

did a Duo row waterfall thingamajig

questions for native/speakers/advanced speakers:
1. is iute hot as in spicy or hot as in warm?
2. tips for remembering the plural of nouns, or is rote memorization the best way to go here?


Croatian:

voron wrote:BCS has a syncretism of dative and locative (except for a few marginal cases where only the stress is different). In your table, you need to replace all entries for locative with the ones for dative.

Also, vocative plural is identical to nominative plural.



Thank you, Noted, applied in my strategy:
now this is how i write them down: Nom - Gen - Dat/Loc - Acc - Voc - Instr.

today, I've learned:
some colors and the word for color

the difference in declension between animate male nouns and inanimate male nouns:
inanimate acc=nom, animate acc=gen

the declension of adjectives:
for indefinite adjectives: it's similar to the declension of multisyllabic nouns
differences:

dat/Loc sg f = stem+oj
instr sg f = stem+om
gen-plural (all genders) = stem+ih
voc sg (m/n) = stem + im

for definite, it's almost the same as indefinite, differences:
if zero-ending in indefinite --> stem +i in definite
gen plural = stem+oj
dat/loc (m/n) = stem+om


questions I have for native/advanced speakers:
1. what's the difference between narandžast and narančast, wiktionary mentions them both for the color orange? same thing for bijel vs beo, siv vs sinji, and crven vs rumen?

2. is the difference between plav and modar: blue vs purple-y blue?

3. when do you use which form of the adjectives, i'm familiar with cases and number in adjectives, i'm not that familiar with definite/indefinite distinction in adjectives? Is it as the name implies, the difference between a/the
let's use nouns and adjectives I've learned already

is this the difference:
zelen miš peva - a green mouse sings
zeleni miš peva - the green mouse sings

4. which of these is the version you'd use to make the general fact statement (something like for example: young mammals drink milk)?
native: (ar-MA) (nl)
very comfortable: (en-US)
somewhat comfortable: (de) (es) (af)
forgetting: (fr) (ar-arb)
touristy level: (ro) (sv)(ber)(pl)
someday hopefully: (ja) (sq) (cs) (tr) and many others

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Re: languagepotato's blog (RO, HR)

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-07-13, 2:40

I know you asked for native or advanced speakers of Romanian, but there currently aren't any around that I know of, so:
languagepotato wrote:1. is iute hot as in spicy or hot as in warm?

Spicy
2. tips for remembering the plural of nouns, or is rote memorization the best way to go here?

Yeah, you're pretty much stuck with rote memorization FWICT. I think it's usually -i for masculine nouns, -le for feminine nouns, and -uri for neuter nouns, though.

Dunno whether I qualify as an "advanced" speaker of Croatian, but I think I can at least attempt an answer to these questions (plus if I'm wrong, then hopefully, someone will point it out, and I'll learn something, too! ;)):
1. what's the difference between narandžast and narančast, wiktionary mentions them both for the color orange?

Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian: A Textbook claims that narandžast is Serbian and Bosnian and narančast is Croatian.
same thing for bijel vs beo

A similar difference that's a bit harder to explain: bijel is the form in Standard Croatian, and beo is the form used in Standard Serbian. (Bijel is common in Serbia, too. I don't think anyone uses beo in Croatia, but I may be wrong).
siv vs sinji, and crven vs rumen?

2. is the difference between plav and modar: blue vs purple-y blue?

I think these are all different kinds of gray, red, and blue. I get the impression that sinji is basically 'beige' rather than 'gray', rumen is more like 'pink' rather than '(dark) red', and modar is a darker shade of blue than plav.
3. when do you use which form of the adjectives, i'm familiar with cases and number in adjectives, i'm not that familiar with definite/indefinite distinction in adjectives? Is it as the name implies, the difference between a/the

Heh...This is probably one of the trickiest parts of BCS grammar to me.

So, no. Unfortunately, it's more complicated than that.

Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian: A Grammar doesn't even use those terms because it considers them so misleading. Instead, it calls them just "short" vs. "long." This is what it says on p. 20-21 (I've added translations in brackets for the phrases that aren't translated in the book itself):
17a. "Indefinite" vs. "definite"

In terms of meaning, the distinction short vs. long in adjectives is usually referred to as indefinite vs. definite. This is because in a number of instances the difference between short and long forms corresponds roughly to that between the English indefinite and definite articles, respectively. Thus, the adjective in the BCS phrase crn kaput would correspond to English A black coat while that in BCS crni kaput would correspond to English THE black coat. In other words, speakers use indefinite adjectives to provide "new" information (to introduce an idea for the first time), while they use definite adjectives to identify something that is already known (or "defined"), after which they go on to say something else new about it. For example:

Indefinite:

Rade, je li to nov kaput? Rade, is that a new coat?
Da. On je nov. Yes. It's new.

Definite:

Taj novi kaput je moj. That new coat is mine.
Gd[j]e je moj novi kaput? Where is my new coat?

17b. "Short vs. long" and "indefinite vs. definite"

Unfortunately, the correspondence between English articles and BCS adjective endings works in only a few instances. To complicate matters further, the BCS distinction between short and long adjectives is gradually being lost. For adjectives with both short and long forms, all one can say with certainty is that the short forms (those with presumed indefinite meaning) are used frequently in predicative position (as in Pas je crn [The dog is black]), and that the long forms (those with presumed definite meaning, as in Taj crni pas je moj [That black dog is mine]) are used in most other instances. The dictionary form is the masculine singular short form.

In general terms, it is advisable for learners to keep the concepts short vs. long separate from indefinite vs. definite - not only because the English / BCS correspondence is such an imperfect match, but also because there are a number of adjectives which have only short forms or only long forms. Most grammarians confuse the issue by calling these adjectives "only indefinite" or "only definite". This is both incorrect and misleading. For instance, adjectives such as engleski "English", srpski "Serbian", hrvatski "Croatian", američki "American", and the like, have only long forms, yet they can be used in both definite and indefinite contexts. There are also adjectives which have only short forms, such as the pronominal adjectives ovaj [this] and moj [my]; yet the meaning conveyed by these pronominal adjectives is clearly one of definiteness. In addition, the adjective mali "small" also exists only in the long form. Some speakers use this single long form in both meanings while others prefer to use a different adjective in the indefinite meaning - one which also means small and which does have both long and short forms (malen / maleni).

languagepotato wrote:is this the difference:
zelen miš peva - a green mouse sings
zeleni miš peva - the green mouse sings

No, I think the first sentence is just ungrammatical.
4. which of these is the version you'd use to make the general fact statement (something like for example: young mammals drink milk)?

I think only the definite form is grammatical in this example, too.

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Re: languagepotato's blog (RO, HR)

Postby languagepotato » 2019-07-13, 18:42

Thank you for the explanations, Vijay.

log day 3:

Romanian:

again the waterfall thing, but i've decided to do it by row instead of skill (well, as long as it's still doable

today's new row was:
definite singular - definite plural - infinitive

the definite singular is definitely something i need to work on
for the plural definite (nominative), you need to know the plural indefinite (nominative) and then:
def. masc = indefinite+i
def fem: = indefinite + le

this makes some interesting words, like copiii - the children (from: copil child, copii - children
and this one i just remembered lalelele the tulips (from lalea: tulip, lalele: tulips)
also, found some of the old romanian songs I like (I lost them earlier)

since, the infinitive is the dictionary form, I don't have to say anything about the form itself but, seeing how i saw some conjugated forms already:
Romance languages and their sorta-regular but not exactly regular verbs :hmm: :nope:


Croatian:
Did less than what I wanted to do but:
finished the colors of yesterday and learned some words of the theme people (the first row of that theme in the list i posted in my first post.

Interesting apparently, one of the words for daughter (kći) is irregular, and that's why a lot of people say kćerka (the diminutive of kći or kćera) instead. same idea for mati --> majka (however, i've heard people insult in serbo-croatian with something along the lines of "pizda mati" and i have never heard "pizda majka")

another irregular noun is otac (father), in singular depending on the case is otac (only in nominatice), oč- (vocative: oče) and oc (all other cases)
plural is sorta regular: but there are kinda two options for every case: (probably depending on the dialect)
right now i'm sticking with the plural stem is očev-

I don't have any questions for either language today (still trying to wrap my head around the long/short form of adjectives in Croatian, or plurals in Romanian) and still trying to remember stuff from the previous days, but so far everything else has been quite clear, just stuff that takes getting used to.
native: (ar-MA) (nl)
very comfortable: (en-US)
somewhat comfortable: (de) (es) (af)
forgetting: (fr) (ar-arb)
touristy level: (ro) (sv)(ber)(pl)
someday hopefully: (ja) (sq) (cs) (tr) and many others

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Re: languagepotato's blog (RO, HR)

Postby voron » 2019-07-13, 18:56

languagepotato wrote:Interesting apparently, one of the words for daughter (kći) is irregular, and that's why a lot of people say kćerka (the diminutive of kći or kćera) instead.

I don't think people avoid them because they are irregular. It's just because mati and kći is more formal, just like in Russian.

another irregular noun is otac (father)

It's infact regular.
c -> č in vocative is a regular sound change
"A" in otac drops out in oblique cases (also a common change), and the spelling rules of Serbian require otca, otcu to be spelt as oca, ocu.

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Re: languagepotato's blog (RO, HR)

Postby languagepotato » 2019-07-14, 22:44

log day 4

Romanian:

Did a waterfall thing again, this time it was possessives and numbers, not a lot to say about it besides it was some relearning mostly

also, apparently my brain can't keep the following somewhat similar words apart

băiat | bărbat
pahar | pasăre
farfurie | fluture

Croatian:

again did less than I wanted to but, learned some more of the people theme, two words stood out:

brother - brat
family - obitelj

According to wiktonary, the noun braća (which is feminine) is used to denote brothers, my question for this word is:
when using adjectives with this word, do you use feminine singular adjectives, masculine singular or masculine plural?

With regards to obitelj, this is the first feminine noun that doesn't have an -a at the end in nominative, and it's declension pattern is also quite interesting, most forms are obitelji. For this I am wondering, are there more relatively common words that decline like this?

for the rest, I'm starting to get the feeling that while there are many patterns, this language is still highly regular and predictable when it comes to the forms (this might just be beginners optimism though)
native: (ar-MA) (nl)
very comfortable: (en-US)
somewhat comfortable: (de) (es) (af)
forgetting: (fr) (ar-arb)
touristy level: (ro) (sv)(ber)(pl)
someday hopefully: (ja) (sq) (cs) (tr) and many others


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