TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby Karavinka » 2018-05-17, 4:50

vijayjohn wrote:
voron wrote:And obviously, to get a word appear in several cards, I need a lot of input. It means if I want to see my Arabic improve faster, I need to accelerate the speed with which I'm adding Anki cards. (Duh, what a trivial conclusion).

This sounds to me like something a computer program should be able to do really easily.


True, but finding stuff and creating the cards manually is half the work there in my opinion. You need to read the language to find sentences to add, look up the vocabulary and figure out the sentence structure to make sure you can review it later.

Also, handcrafting thousands of cards sounds like a lot of time, but in the end you end up spending less time reviewing the cards that computer generated that you don't really need to have in the deck (which will definitely happen when, say, you dump an entire movie, for example).
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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-05-17, 6:39

Ah, so doing this manually helps make it easier to learn the words (in a way that doing this with a machine wouldn't), perhaps?

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2018-05-17, 8:58

vijayjohn wrote:This sounds to me like something a computer program should be able to do really easily.

Here is my usual process of working on my Anki cards.

1) Find a video or an audio that I like.
2) Subtitle it with Aegisub, if it's not already subtitled, and create Anki cards with sub2srs
------ this takes me up to 30 mins, but as Karavinka says it's only half the job
3) The first time I go through the new cards*, I analyze the sentence structure, add new words with translations and other notes to a separate field in a card, and delete the cards I don't like** (for example which are too easy or too obscure)
---- this may take longer time than actually creating cards, and this is where a computer doesn't help.

Also, daily reviews obviously take time. All in all, creating cards is only a small fraction of time I totally spend on Anki.

* There is a little trick I use. I create a separate subdeck for every new audio and video, and work from the subdeck when I review the first time -- so the cards appear in order and don't get mixed with the old cards. After I am done with analyzing and annotating them, I dump the subdeck into the main deck.

** At some point when my Arabic vocabulary increases, there will inevitably be too many cards I consider 'easy' and need to delete -- so automating the creation process will no longer be effective. But I am not there yet.
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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2018-05-17, 9:24

Karavinka, do you have a plan about how to use Anki when your vocabulary is already significantly large?

I've created a deck for Turkish where I add new words I encounter in stuff I read in Turkish -- it's mostly news and facebook -- but there are two problems with it:
1) the deck is growing too slowly
2) each word occurs just once

The first problem can perhaps be remedied by reading specialized materials, for example texts on physics or legal texts -- that is, the specific areas where I feel my vocabulary is weak and I feel the need of improving it. As for the second, I could do sentence mining. Any other advice?

I have another idea I want to try. I have an Amazon Kindle reader for which I once created a large Turkish-Russian dictionary.
viewtopic.php?f=62&t=30736&start=80#p780860

When I look up words in a dictionary on Kindle, it adds them to a separate text file. Perhaps I could then use that file to create Anki cards -- need to refresh my memories on how the whole thing worked.
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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby Karavinka » 2018-05-17, 12:19

voron wrote:Karavinka, do you have a plan about how to use Anki when your vocabulary is already significantly large?

I've created a deck for Turkish where I add new words I encounter in stuff I read in Turkish -- it's mostly news and facebook -- but there are two problems with it:
1) the deck is growing too slowly
2) each word occurs just once

The first problem can perhaps be remedied by reading specialized materials, for example texts on physics or legal texts -- that is, the specific areas where I feel my vocabulary is weak and I feel the need of improving it. As for the second, I could do sentence mining. Any other advice?

I have another idea I want to try. I have an Amazon Kindle reader for which I once created a large Turkish-Russian dictionary.
viewtopic.php?f=62&t=30736&start=80#p780860

When I look up words in a dictionary on Kindle, it adds them to a separate text file. Perhaps I could then use that file to create Anki cards -- need to refresh my memories on how the whole thing worked.


Business as usual for the most part, though I do have a pure vocabulary deck for Japanese. This is what it looks like, just a few of my most recent cards. As of now, there are 663 of these.

結城
------------
ゆうき
> Place name with an irregular Kanji reading

不逞鮮人
-------------
ふていせんじん
韓国併合後の日本政府に不満を持つ内地の朝鮮出身者や、満洲の朝鮮人反体制派、朝鮮独立運動家、犯罪者をさした。
> Historical term with Japanese explanation from Wikipedia

軍事境界線
------------
ぐんじきょうかいせん
> "Military border" of the Korean peninsula. No extra info is needed because the Kanji makes it self-evident, but Japanese uses one different Kanji from Korean.

鰓脚綱
------------
さいきゃくこう
Brachiopoda
> Technical


This is because I feel comfortable enough with Japanese (I rarely use dictionary) and I am kind of sure that I am under sufficiently constant exposure to the language not to need a sentence deck anymore. Maybe you don't need a sentence deck in Turkish if looking up happens rarely enough.

But more generally, words with single occurrences may eventually just stick over long time - by which I mean months, but we're not in hurry. And my general attitude: it's OK to fail half of the new words, when the total new words is large enough. It's not uncommon for me to add a card with the second instance of a given word a few months later as well.
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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2018-05-17, 13:22

Thank you for your advice.

Karavinka wrote:But more generally, words with single occurrences may eventually just stick over long time - by which I mean months, but we're not in hurry.

Actually, the whole point of me starting using Anki is that I want to accelerate my learning; otherwise I would go on using my old methods (which is casual dabbling and picking up words here and there). Looking back at my Turkish blog: after 3 years of learning it I felt comfortable enough to go to Turkey, take a job interview in Turkish and start working in a Turkish speaking environment. It's not happening with Arabic, though -- I don't know why, whether it's because it's intrinsically more difficult, or the diglossia situation, or just because I got older -- but it exasperates me and I want to fix it.

I'm relaxed with Turkish and also think that the exposure I'm having now is enough for slow but steady improvement; but if I can find an effective way of increasing my vocabulary, why not.
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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby Karavinka » 2018-05-17, 18:09

voron wrote:Thank you for your advice.

Karavinka wrote:But more generally, words with single occurrences may eventually just stick over long time - by which I mean months, but we're not in hurry.

Actually, the whole point of me starting using Anki is that I want to accelerate my learning; otherwise I would go on using my old methods (which is casual dabbling and picking up words here and there). Looking back at my Turkish blog: after 3 years of learning it I felt comfortable enough to go to Turkey, take a job interview in Turkish and start working in a Turkish speaking environment. It's not happening with Arabic, though -- I don't know why, whether it's because it's intrinsically more difficult, or the diglossia situation, or just because I got older -- but it exasperates me and I want to fix it.

I'm relaxed with Turkish and also think that the exposure I'm having now is enough for slow but steady improvement; but if I can find an effective way of increasing my vocabulary, why not.


Still, if you learn 10 words each day, that's 300 words per month. Because we're dealing with the human brain that tend to forget things, the actual number is far less than that.

If you dump +30 cards with one new word on average per day, it's not unrealistic to have ~1000 per month. The earliest cards will have a few iterations over one month period, but let's say you only recognize 30% of the new words. That's still 300, and you are more likely to recognize more than that.

The trick starts really working in the following months. Not only you'll learn a new set of 300 words from new cards added each month, the words on the cards that you didn't do well during the first month will get seen again and you will salvage more of what you didn't get during the first few reviews. The larger the deck becomes, the more you learn -- not only from the new cards, but the words from the old cards that were still somewhat vague in your memory.

At least that's my math, accepting the failure rate and simply shooting more targets. I must have learned some 20~25 words per day on average over the last six months, I don't think I could have done it with a conventional method. It sounds like it's going to take a long time to make it work, but in the end it makes things quicker.

After all, human brain works strangely, there are words that I look up and make note on the cards several times and I still fail to recognize -- one card added yesterday had "ummak" (for umuyordum) defined on the back, even though the first instance of the word was Oct 26 and the word was defined no less than six times. But other times, words just stick and I recognize it in a new context just fine, even if the word appeared so far only once in the deck.
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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2018-05-18, 2:16

I cleared the dust off my Kindle, and found that the Turkish-Russian dictionary I had created still works.

The feature that automatically keeps track of words looked up in the dictionary sucks though. The file with the words is synced with the Amazon account only for purchased books, and without the sync it's difficult to extract useful information from it. :?

It's still a neat device for reading -- and this time I was able to find a lot more Turkish books in the e-reader format than a few years ago.
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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2018-05-18, 21:49

Number of Arabic cards: 900

Just 100 more to go until I can reward myself (not sure yet with what)!
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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2018-05-22, 1:58

Arabic cards: 981

Almost there!
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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-05-22, 5:20

But still don't know what to reward yourself with? :P

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2018-05-22, 10:12

vijayjohn wrote:But still don't know what to reward yourself with? :P

No... do you have any ideas?
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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-05-22, 12:33

voron wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:But still don't know what to reward yourself with? :P

No... do you have any ideas?

The only things I can think of right now are:
buying myself a nice illustrated book in Arabic

or something having to do with Kurdish, or ice cream. :lol:

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby księżycowy » 2018-05-22, 13:35

Did someone say ICE CREAM!?

I'm in! :partyhat:

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2018-05-22, 17:21

vijayjohn wrote:or ice cream. :lol:

That's actually a nice idea. I'll get myself Maraş dondurması:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKR5OoB7Asg

The only problem, I'm already lusting for it today, but I feel too lazy to add the remaining cards to Anki. :P
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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2018-05-22, 23:22

Arabic cards: 1012

Yay!

Looking back at the statistics: my speed is about 600 cards/month, so I can reasonably expect to achieve 3000 cards at the end of summer (June, July, August). I'll keep doing the same Anki routine over the summer; and then I'll consider reducing the Anki part, and add more listening (and probably speaking too?.. we'll see).
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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-05-23, 3:11

Enjoy your Maraş dondurması! Afiyet olsun! :D

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2018-05-23, 22:55

vijayjohn wrote:Afiyet olsun! :D

Sağol!
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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2018-05-31, 14:52

(ar-sy)
Added this Omar Souleyman's song to Anki:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o_LTv9Zo4I

Image
:partyhat:

It only gave me 10 cards and 2 new words, but the song is so fun and the images on cards turned out to be awesome. (The flag I put on this paragraph may be wrong because I'm not sure the song is in a dialect of Syria; perhaps it's an Iraqi dialect, but it's understandable anyway).

(ar) I finished Juz 30 and I'm about to finish Juz 29 of the Quran. With the help of Anki, I can read the surahs in these Juzes fluently, and I remember the meaning of nearly every word.

Does knowing that much vocabulary help me read new surahs? Not always. When there is a narrative (Allah said to Moses: Go to the pharaoh, because he digresses, and tell him to kneel and pray, etc), I can understand well. But there are lots of parts with descriptions, for example descriptions of the Domesday (when the sky is split asunder, when the stars fall, and when the mountains start moving), and it looks like many words in them are unique.
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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-05-31, 23:30

Aw man, I was hoping it was Warni Warni. :lol:


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