ES vs PT vs CA

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ES vs PT vs CA

Postby linguoboy » 2017-08-07, 20:33

I thought it would be fun to take these example sentences Luís posted to contrast Spanish and Portuguese and add a Catalan translation.

[flag=]ca[/flag] Ha començat a ploure. Tanca la finestra y no oblidis el paraigua! Jo encara em vaig a quedar aquí en aquesta cadira mirant una película en pantalla ampla mentre menjo préssecs i síndries.
[flag=]es[/flag]Empezó a llover. Cierra la ventana y no olvides el paraguas! Yo todavía me voy a quedar aquí en esta silla mirando una película en pantalla ancha mientras como melocotones y sandías.
[flag=]pt[/flag]Começou a chover. Fecha a janela e não te esqueças do guarda-chuva. Eu ainda vou ficar aqui nesta cadeira a ver um filme em ecrã panorâmico enquanto como pêssegos e melancias
Last edited by linguoboy on 2017-08-07, 21:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ES vs PT vs CA

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-08-07, 21:21

Not sure where this originated or if you were wanting other languages to be added here - I'll assume so since it's the translation forum - in any case I thought it would be fun to try adding an Estonian version for comparison. :D Also an English translation.
In Spanish it's also correct to say "de pantalla panorámica" (similar to Portuguese) in place of "pantalla ancha".
And I'm a bit amused to find that Portuguese ecrã and Estonian ekraan are cognates. I know it's common in many languages (écran, экран) but still... you just don't see Portuguese-Estonian cognates everyday.

[flag=]en[/flag] It started to rain. Close the window and don't forget the umbrella! I'm still [just] going to stay here in this chair watching a movie in widescreen while eating peaches and watermelon.

[flag=]ca[/flag] Va començar a ploure. Tanca la finestra y no oblidis el paraigua! Jo encara em vaig a quedar aquí en aquesta cadira mirant una película en pantalla ampla mentre menjo préssecs i síndries.
[flag=]es[/flag]Empezó a llover. ¡Cierra la ventana y no olvides el paraguas! Yo todavía me voy a quedar aquí en esta silla mirando una película en pantalla ancha mientras como melocotones y sandías.
[flag=]pt[/flag]Começou a chover. Fecha a janela e não te esqueças do guarda-chuva. Eu ainda vou ficar aqui nesta cadeira a ver um filme em ecrã panorâmico enquanto como pêssegos e melancias.

[flag=]et[/flag]Hakkas vihma sadama. Sule aken ja ära unusta vihmavarju! Ma jään selles toolis ikka veel laiekraani filmi vaatamas, samal ajal söön virsikuid ja arbuuse.

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Re: ES vs PT vs CA

Postby linguoboy » 2017-08-07, 21:34

Linguaphile wrote:Not sure where this originated or if you were wanting other languages to be added here

Not particularly, since the entire point is to exhibit some striking differences in vocabulary between otherwise very closely-related languages, but, hey, be free.
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Re: ES vs PT vs CA

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-08-07, 22:14

linguoboy wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Not sure where this originated or if you were wanting other languages to be added here

Not particularly, since the entire point is to exhibit some striking differences in vocabulary between otherwise very closely-related languages, but, hey, be free.

I feel a bit like I'm joining into the middle of an ongoing conversation then, since I don't know where this was posted before. Anyway it's a sentence with lots of words that have wide variation, even in a single language, i.e.
[flag=]es[/flag][flag=]mx[/flag][flag=]es-AR[/flag] pantalla ancha = [flag=]es[/flag][flag=]mx[/flag][flag=]es-AR[/flag] pantalla panorámica = [flag=]es-MX[/flag][flag=]es-AR[/flag]pantalla widescreen
[flag=]pt[/flag] ecrã panorâmico = [flag=]pt-BR[/flag] tela panorâmica = [flag=]pt-BR[/flag] tela widescreen
[flag=]es[/flag] melocotón = [flag=]es-MX[/flag][flag=]es-AR[/flag] durazno = [flag=]es[/flag] piesco = [flag=]es[/flag][flag=]an[/flag] presco (Aragonese & Spanish spoken in Aragon)
[flag=]ca[/flag] préssec = [flag=]ca[/flag] bresquilla
Last edited by Linguaphile on 2017-08-09, 15:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ES vs PT vs CA

Postby voron » 2017-08-07, 23:24

Linguaphile wrote:And I'm a bit amused to find that Portuguese ecrã and Estonian ekraan are cognates. I know it's common in many languages (écran, экран) but still... you just don't see Portuguese-Estonian cognates everyday.

It's a bit amusing that you are amused because for me экран is just another loanword from French which are tons in Russian. Also technically loanwords are not cognates.

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Re: ES vs PT vs CA

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-08-07, 23:50

voron wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:And I'm a bit amused to find that Portuguese ecrã and Estonian ekraan are cognates. I know it's common in many languages (écran, экран) but still... you just don't see Portuguese-Estonian cognates everyday.

It's a bit amusing that you are amused because for me экран is just another loanword from French which are tons in Russian. Also technically loanwords are not cognates.

It wasn't the presence of a word like "экран" in Russian (or in any of the languages, really) that I thought was amusing - just the fact that it's highly unusual to find words with the same etymological origin in that particular pair of languages (Portuguese and Estonian). I only mentioned Russian and French to acknowledge that I'm aware the word isn't only used in Portuguese and Estonian - it's obviously used in many others as well. It's just that usually Portuguese and Estonian don't have much in common. That's what amused me - in a thread that was otherwise highlighting differences in the vocab of related languages like Portuguese and Spanish, to me it just seemed ironic that here is the exact opposite: a rare similarity in the vocab of quite unrelated languages.
"You just don't see Portuguese-Estonian cognates everyday" was a (poor) attempt at humor; Estonian and Portuguese are from completely unrelated language families. A natural cognate (not a borrowing or a coincidental similarity) would be an impossibility.

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Re: ES vs PT vs CA

Postby voron » 2017-08-08, 11:49

Linguaphile wrote:That's what amused me - in a thread that was otherwise highlighting differences in the vocab of related languages like Portuguese and Spanish, to me it just seemed ironic that here is the exact opposite: a rare similarity in the vocab of quite unrelated languages.

Yeah I see your point. An Estonian-Portuguese-French-Russian Sprachbund, that would be fun. And the word is the same in Turkish too. Here are Rusisan and Turkish translations for lulz:

[flag=]en[/flag] It started to rain. Close the window and don't forget the umbrella! I'm still [just] going to stay here in this chair watching a movie in widescreen while eating peaches and watermelon.

[flag=]ca[/flag] Va començar a ploure. Tanca la finestra y no oblidis el paraigua! Jo encara em vaig a quedar aquí en aquesta cadira mirant una película en pantalla ampla mentre menjo préssecs i síndries.
[flag=]es[/flag] Empezó a llover. ¡Cierra la ventana y no olvides el paraguas! Yo todavía me voy a quedar aquí en esta silla mirando una película en pantalla ancha mientras como melocotones y sandías.
[flag=]pt[/flag] Começou a chover. Fecha a janela e não te esqueças do guarda-chuva. Eu ainda vou ficar aqui nesta cadeira a ver um filme em ecrã panorâmico enquanto como pêssegos e melancias.

[flag=]ru[/flag] Начался дождь. Закрой окно и не забудь зонтик. А я всё же останусь здесь в этом кресле и посмотрю широкоэкранный фильм, заедая персиками и арбузами.

[flag=]tr[/flag] Yağmur başladı. Pencereyi kapat ve şemsiyeyi unutma! Ben nasılsa burada bu sandalyede kalıp şeftali ve karpuz yerken geniş ekran formatında bir film izleyeceğim.

[flag=]et[/flag] Hakkas vihma sadama. Sule aken ja ära unusta vihmavarju! Ma jään selles toolis ikka veel laiekraani filmi vaatamas, samal ajal söön virsikuid ja arbuuse.

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Re: ES vs PT vs CA

Postby Antea » 2017-08-08, 11:52

I don't know if I can explain the grammatical reasons exactly, but for me, the Catalan translation should be like that:

[flag=]ca[/flag] Va començar a ploure. Tanca la finestra y no oblidis el paraigua! Jo encara em quedaré aquí (una estona) en aquesta cadira mirant una película en (a la )pantalla ampla mentre menjo préssecs i síndries.

It sounds more natural to me :hmm:
Last edited by Antea on 2017-08-08, 12:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ES vs PT vs CA

Postby voron » 2017-08-08, 12:14

I just noticed that besides ekran, we have one more word common between Russian, Estonian and Turkish:

[flag=]ru[/flag] арбуз
[flag=]tr[/flag] karpuz
[flag=]et[/flag] arbuuse

UPD: Oh and of course this:
[flag=]ru[/flag] фильм
[flag=]tr[/flag] film
[flag=]et[/flag] film

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Re: ES vs PT vs CA

Postby linguoboy » 2017-08-08, 14:31

Antea wrote:I don't know if I can explain the grammatical reasons exactly, but for me, the Catalan translation should be like that:

[flag=]ca[/flag] Va començar a ploure. Tanca la finestra y no oblidis el paraigua! Jo encara em quedaré aquí (una estona) en aquesta cadira mirant una película en (a la )pantalla ampla mentre menjo préssecs i síndries.

It sounds more natural to me :hmm:

Now I'm really confused. It was drilled into us in Catalan class not to use the preterite for anything occurring on the same day. Could it be because "beginning" is considered instantaneous and thus definitely concluded before the moment of speaking? I'll see what Wheeler has to say.
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Re: ES vs PT vs CA

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-08-08, 14:45

linguoboy wrote:It was drilled into us in Catalan class not to use the preterite for anything occurring on the same day.

I don't know enough about Catalan grammar to judge, but that sounds so much like the type of rule that is taught to learners to keep them from saying things wrong before learning the nuances of the 'real' rule - like "never start a sentence with because " in English.

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Re: ES vs PT vs CA

Postby linguoboy » 2017-08-08, 14:50

Linguaphile wrote:
linguoboy wrote:It was drilled into us in Catalan class not to use the preterite for anything occurring on the same day.

I don't know enough about Catalan grammar to judge, but that sounds so much like the type of rule that is taught to learners to keep them from saying things wrong before learning the nuances of the 'real' rule - like "never start a sentence with because " in English.

The thing is, Googling "ha començat a ploure" finds plenty of examples from native speakers. So whatever the "real rule" is here, it's a subtle one indeed.
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Re: ES vs PT vs CA

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-08-08, 14:51

voron wrote:I just noticed that besides ekran, we have one more word common between Russian, Estonian and Turkish:

[flag=]ru[/flag] арбуз
[flag=]tr[/flag] karpuz
[flag=]et[/flag] arbuuse

UPD: Oh and of course this:
[flag=]ru[/flag] фильм
[flag=]tr[/flag] film
[flag=]et[/flag] film


Yes, those are good! There's also [flag=]ru[/flag] окно / [flag=]et[/flag] aken, but loanwords from Russian (and from German) are very common in Estonian. What's fun is when the same ones also turn up in something like Portuguese or Turkish as well... you've got three language families in your list above - Indo-European, Turkic, Uralic - nice!

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Re: ES vs PT vs CA

Postby הענט » 2017-08-08, 17:47

[flag=]en[/flag] It started to rain. Close the window and don't forget the umbrella! I'm still [just] going to stay here in this chair watching a movie in widescreen while eating peaches and watermelon.

[flag=]ca[/flag] Va començar a ploure. Tanca la finestra y no oblidis el paraigua! Jo encara em vaig a quedar aquí en aquesta cadira mirant una película en pantalla ampla mentre menjo préssecs i síndries.
[flag=]es[/flag] Empezó a llover. ¡Cierra la ventana y no olvides el paraguas! Yo todavía me voy a quedar aquí en esta silla mirando una película en pantalla ancha mientras como melocotones y sandías.
[flag=]pt[/flag] Começou a chover. Fecha a janela e não te esqueças do guarda-chuva. Eu ainda vou ficar aqui nesta cadeira a ver um filme em ecrã panorâmico enquanto como pêssegos e melancias.

[flag=]ru[/flag] Начался дождь. Закрой окно и не забудь зонтик. А я всё же останусь здесь в этом кресле и посмотрю широкоэкранный фильм, заедая персиками и арбузами.
[flag=]cs[/flag] Začalo pršet. Zavři okno a nezapomeň na deštník.
Já tu zatím zůstanu tady na té židli a budu se dívat na širokoúhlý film zatímco budu jíst broskve a (vodní) melouny.

[flag=]tr[/flag] Yağmur başladı. Pencereyi kapat ve şemsiyeyi unutma! Ben nasılsa burada bu sandalyede kalıp şeftali ve karpuz yerken geniş ekran formatında bir film izleyeceğim.

[flag=]et[/flag] Hakkas vihma sadama. Sule aken ja ära unusta vihmavarju! Ma jään selles toolis ikka veel laiekraani filmi vaatamas, samal ajal söön virsikuid ja arbuuse.


Btw. Voron - Isn't креслo (křeslo) armchair? That'd be sillón in Spanish.
Silla means chair (stul')

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Re: ES vs PT vs CA

Postby voron » 2017-08-08, 18:20

Dr. House wrote:Btw. Voron - Isn't креслo (křeslo) armchair? That'd be sillón in Spanish.
Silla means chair (stul')

Oops the image I created in my mind with me watching an enjoyable film while eating delicious fruit included an arm-chair. A chair would be too uncomfortable. :) Correcting my Russian translation.
(And hmm I did say "chair" in my Turkish translation).

[flag=]en[/flag] It started to rain. Close the window and don't forget the umbrella! I'm still [just] going to stay here in this chair watching a movie in widescreen while eating peaches and watermelon.

[flag=]ca[/flag] Va començar a ploure. Tanca la finestra y no oblidis el paraigua! Jo encara em vaig a quedar aquí en aquesta cadira mirant una película en pantalla ampla mentre menjo préssecs i síndries.
[flag=]es[/flag] Empezó a llover. ¡Cierra la ventana y no olvides el paraguas! Yo todavía me voy a quedar aquí en esta silla mirando una película en pantalla ancha mientras como melocotones y sandías.
[flag=]pt[/flag] Começou a chover. Fecha a janela e não te esqueças do guarda-chuva. Eu ainda vou ficar aqui nesta cadeira a ver um filme em ecrã panorâmico enquanto como pêssegos e melancias.

[flag=]ru[/flag] Начался дождь. Закрой окно и не забудь зонтик. А я всё же останусь здесь на этом стуле и посмотрю широкоэкранный фильм, заедая персиками и арбузами.
[flag=]cs[/flag] Začalo pršet. Zavři okno a nezapomeň na deštník. Já tu zatím zůstanu tady na té židli a budu se dívat na širokoúhlý film zatímco budu jíst broskve a (vodní) melouny.

[flag=]tr[/flag] Yağmur başladı. Pencereyi kapat ve şemsiyeyi unutma! Ben nasılsa burada bu sandalyede kalıp şeftali ve karpuz yerken geniş ekran formatında bir film izleyeceğim.

[flag=]et[/flag] Hakkas vihma sadama. Sule aken ja ära unusta vihmavarju! Ma jään selles toolis ikka veel laiekraani filmi vaatamas, samal ajal söön virsikuid ja arbuuse.

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Re: ES vs PT vs CA

Postby Antea » 2017-08-08, 19:29

linguoboy wrote:
Antea wrote:I don't know if I can explain the grammatical reasons exactly, but for me, the Catalan translation should be like that:

[flag=]ca[/flag] Va començar a ploure. Tanca la finestra y no oblidis el paraigua! Jo encara em quedaré aquí (una estona) en aquesta cadira mirant una película en (a la )pantalla ampla mentre menjo préssecs i síndries.

It sounds more natural to me :hmm:

Now I'm really confused. It was drilled into us in Catalan class not to use the preterite for anything occurring on the same day. Could it be because "beginning" is considered instantaneous and thus definitely concluded before the moment of speaking? I'll see what Wheeler has to say.


Ok, I think the problem is the following. The original Spanish sentence is not in Spanish from Spain. I suppose it is from South America. Because, for me, if the action is in the past, it's "Empezó a llover". But if it still raining now, I would say "Ha empezado a llover", and Never, "empezó a llover", because for me that is in the Past.

So "Empezó a llover" (in the past) I translate it in Catalan as "Va començar a ploure". But if you mean "ha empezado a llover" (in the use of Spanish of Spain), I would say "Ha començat a ploure" (it has started to rain recently and it's still raining now).

On the other hand, I never say "a la pantalla ampla". It sounds strange. I would say "al televisor de pantalla gran" o "al meu televisor de pantalla gran", " a la gran pantalla del meu televisor".

"In the TV" has to be specified, because "gran pantalla" is usually understood as in the Cinema.

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Re: ES vs PT vs CA

Postby linguoboy » 2017-08-08, 19:36

Antea wrote:Ok, I think the problem is the following. The original Spanish sentence is not in Spanish from Spain. I suppose it is from South America. Because, for me, if the action is in the past, it's "Empezó a llover". But if it still raining now, I would say "Ha empezado a llover", and Never, "empezó a llover", because for me that is in the Past.

The original Spanish sentence was translated by a Portuguese speaker (vets aquí) who didn't think to use the perfect because it's not an option here in Portuguese. I thought the rest of the context (e.g. why would you need an umbrella if it's no longer raining?) made it clear the rain continued through the moment of speaking, yet I still made the same mistake and had to correct myself.

Antea wrote:On the other hand, I never say "a la pantalla ampla". It sounds strange. I would say "al televisor de pantalla gran" o "al meu televisor de pantalla gran", " a la gran pantalla del meu televisor".

Luís may have to clarify this, but I thought he meant "in widescreen format" rather than "on a widescreen television".
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Re: ES vs PT vs CA

Postby Antea » 2017-08-08, 19:43

linguoboy wrote:The original Spanish sentence was translated by a Portuguese speaker (vets aquí) who didn't think to use the perfect because it's not an option here in Portuguese. I thought the rest of the context (e.g. why would you need an umbrella if it's no longer raining?) made it clear the rain continued through the moment of speaking, yet I still made the same mistake and had to correct myself.


Ok, I understand it now. That's the reason why for me this sentence was so bizarre, and why I thought it made no sense or that it was incorrectly written (in Spanish). And I am not very familiarized with the use of verbs tenses in Portuguese, because I really use them similarly as I would do in Spanish (so not very correctly).

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Re: ES vs PT vs CA

Postby linguoboy » 2017-08-08, 19:46

Here's a pithy sentence that's almost entirely different in Spanish and Catalan. Can someone add Portuguese? Edit: Added Standard French.

[flag=]ca[/flag] Renta-ho amb un raspall tou.
[flag=]es[/flag] Lávalo con un cepillo blando.
[flag=]fr[/flag] Lave-lui avec une brosse molle.
Last edited by linguoboy on 2017-08-08, 19:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ES vs PT vs CA

Postby Saim » 2017-08-08, 19:51

Fixing Catalan, adding Galician and Asturian.

[flag=]en[/flag] It started to rain. Close the window and don't forget the umbrella! I'm still [just] going to stay here in this chair watching a movie in widescreen while eating peaches and watermelon.

[flag=]ca[/flag] Ha començat a ploure. Tanca la finestra i no oblidis el paraigua! Jo encara em quedaré una estona aquí en aquesta cadira mirant una película al televisor de pantalla gran mentre menjo préssecs i síndries.
[flag=]es[/flag] Ha empezado a llover. ¡Cierra la ventana y no olvides el paraguas! Yo todavía me voy a quedar aquí en esta silla mirando una película en pantalla ancha mientras como melocotones y sandías.
[flag=]pt[/flag] Começou a chover. Fecha a janela e não te esqueças do guarda-chuva. Eu ainda vou ficar aqui nesta cadeira a ver um filme em ecrã panorâmico enquanto como pêssegos e melancias.
[flag=]gl[/flag] Comezou a chover. Pecha a xanela (/ventá/fiestra) e non te esquezas do paraugas. Eu aínda vou ficar (/quedar) aquí nesta cadeira a ver un filme (/unha película) en pantalla ancha mentres como pexegos e sandías.
[flag=]ast[/flag] Empezó a llover. Zarra la ventana y nun t'escaeces del paragües. Yo inda (/tovía/aínda) voi quedame equí nesta siella a ver una película en pantalla ancha mientres como piescos y sandíes.

[flag=]ru[/flag] Начался дождь. Закрой окно и не забудь зонтик. А я всё же останусь здесь на этом стуле и посмотрю широкоэкранный фильм, заедая персиками и арбузами.
[flag=]cs[/flag] Začalo pršet. Zavři okno a nezapomeň na deštník. Já tu zatím zůstanu tady na té židli a budu se dívat na širokoúhlý film zatímco budu jíst broskve a (vodní) melouny.

[flag=]tr[/flag] Yağmur başladı. Pencereyi kapat ve şemsiyeyi unutma! Ben nasılsa burada bu sandalyede kalıp şeftali ve karpuz yerken geniş ekran formatında bir film izleyeceğim.

[flag=]et[/flag] Hakkas vihma sadama. Sule aken ja ära unusta vihmavarju! Ma jään selles toolis ikka veel laiekraani filmi vaatamas, samal ajal söön virsikuid ja arbuuse.[/quote]


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