The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

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Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby Naava » 2021-06-17, 14:17

stordragon wrote:In the Circum-Baltic area the use of "to lie" (on the table) is quite common, be it in Uralic, Balto-Slavic or Germanic languages, hence:

(et)Raamat lebab laual (=(fi)Kirja "makaa" pöydällä)

are also acceptable.. Just a side note here

I don't know if you meant to include Finnish in your list or if you had some other reason to translate Estonian like that, but this is not used in Finnish. You can say that a book is "lying" somewhere, but it means it's 'discarded, forgotten, unread' or that it's in a horizontal position, as in "don't keep it up like that, put it down so that it lies against this..." I think rest could be a good equivalent in English for the latter.

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Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby stordragon » 2021-06-17, 14:42

Naava wrote:
stordragon wrote:In the Circum-Baltic area the use of "to lie" (on the table) is quite common, be it in Uralic, Balto-Slavic or Germanic languages, hence:

(et)Raamat lebab laual (=(fi)Kirja "makaa" pöydällä)

are also acceptable.. Just a side note here

I don't know if you meant to include Finnish in your list or if you had some other reason to translate Estonian like that, but this is not used in Finnish.


That was why I added quotation marks "" for the word "makaa"

Plus I had actually edited the post again to add the Estonian/Võro cognate "magama" before seeing your post. By "Circum-Baltic" & "common" I meant to say most (if not a vast majority) of the languages in this area, which does not necessarily include Finnish, and it is quite normal for Estonian, under the heavy influence of the languages of both Germanic (historically Vikings and, in modern times, Germans) and Slavic immigrants, to adopt the "lie" form. (compare ET-EE vastu võtma with DA-DK modtage (Tallinn = Taani linn "Danish Town" which suggests a strong historical link between Estonia and Denmark). Estonian is by no means comparable with Finnish in terms of Germanic and Slavic influence, e.g. as you may know many western Estonian Islands, incl Saaremaa & Muhu received a great number of Swedish immigrants who speak the ostsvenska subgroup of Swedish dialects.)

Of course Finnish also received a lot of probable Germanic influence (apparently more than the otherway around, e.g. FI-FI (meänkieli?) poika > SV-SE pojke) esp in ostsvenska communities in south-western Finland, e.g. huvudsakligen ("headsakely", = DE-DE hauptsächlich) -> pääasiallisesti (= ET-EE peaasjalikult), (Tack) på förhand vs (Kiitos) etukäteen etc, but it's to a much lesser extent.
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Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-06-17, 18:13

stordragon wrote:
Naava wrote:
stordragon wrote:In the Circum-Baltic area the use of "to lie" (on the table) is quite common, be it in Uralic, Balto-Slavic or Germanic languages, hence:

(et)Raamat lebab laual (=(fi)Kirja "makaa" pöydällä)

are also acceptable.. Just a side note here

I don't know if you meant to include Finnish in your list or if you had some other reason to translate Estonian like that, but this is not used in Finnish.


That was why I added quotation marks "" for the word "makaa"

Plus I had actually edited the post again to add the Estonian/Võro cognate "magama" before seeing your post. By "Circum-Baltic" & "common" I meant to say most (if not a vast majority) of the languages in this area, which does not necessarily include Finnish

It also does not include Võro or most other Finnic languages either. Võro does not have a cognate for lebama and certainly does not use magama this way. (Estonian does not use magama this way either. Magama/makaa is not a synonym or translation for lebama.)
Lebama is "to lie, to recline, to be in place horizontally" and magama is "to sleep".
The closest Finnish equivalent would be levätä ("Kirja lepää pöydällä") and in Russian лежать ("Книга лежит на столе"). The Russian sentence is the one that was already given in this thread, but the Finnish one is not common as far as I know. (Naava can weigh in here.) A google search produces mostly sentences where the emphasis is on the physical state of the book, like actual physics discussions about gravity and the weight of the book as it lies there, not sentences that are just giving the book's location. In Estonian, too, it can be used this way and if we're just talking about the book's location it's more common to say raamat on laual or raamat on laua peal.
Votic has the verb levätä too but as far as I know only uses it for animate objects (people, animals) that are resting or lying down.

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Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby Multiturquoise » 2021-06-17, 18:51

stordragon wrote:In the Circum-Baltic area the use of "to lie" (on the table) is quite common, be it in Uralic, Balto-Slavic or Germanic languages, hence:

(et)Raamat lebab laual (=(fi)Kirja "makaa" pöydällä, (fi)makaa=(et)magama)

(lv)Grāmata guļ uz galda
(ltg)Gruomota guļ iz golda
(sgs)Kninga gol ont stala
(lt)Knyga guli ant stalo ((lv)gulēt = (lt)gulėti)

are also acceptable.. Just a side note here


Most Turkic languages also use the verbs "to lie" and "to stand" to express the same thing.

(az) Kitab stolun üstündədir.
(gag) Kiyat masanın üstündä.
(tr) Kitap masada/masanın üstünde/üzerinde(dir).
(tk) Kitap stoluň üstünde (dur).
(ba) Китап өҫтәлдә ята.
(crh) Kitap masanıñ üstündedir.
(kaa) Китап стол үстинде тур.
(kk) Кітап үстел үстінде тұр/жатыр.
(krc) Китаб стол юсюнде турады.
(kum) Китап столну уьстюнде тура.
(ky) Китеп столдун үстүндө турат/жатат.
(nog) Книга столда/стол уьстинде ятыр/туры.
(tt) Китап өстәлдә ята.
(ug) كىتاب ئۈستەل ئۈستىدە.
(uz) Китоб стол устида турибди/ётибди.
(alt) Бичик столдыҥ ӱстинде јадыры.
(cjs) Ном терги ӱстӱнде чатча.
(kjh) Книга столда чатча.
(tyv) Ном стол кырында чыдыр.
(sah) Кинигэ остуолга сытар.
(cv) Кӗнеке сӗтел ҫинче выртать.
Last edited by Multiturquoise on 2021-06-17, 19:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby stordragon » 2021-06-17, 19:25

Linguaphile wrote:It also does not include Võro or most other Finnic languages either. Võro does not have a cognate for lebama and certainly does not use magama this way. (Estonian does not use magama this way either.

I was not aware of this & should not have mentioned Võro when talking about the magama <> makaa stuff which has caused confusion, Well spotted, thanks Linguaphile! :mrgreen: Yeah it makes sense that Võro, as an inland dialect, might not count as a coastal/Circum-Baltic language that has absorbed a lot of Germanic influences.

Here is what I've learnt from Eesti etümoloogiasõnaraamat which assumes lebama might have originated from Proto-Germanic χleujan and is related to the Middle High German verb "geliuwen" which could be translated as "puhkama" ("to rest").

https://www.eki.ee/dict/ety/index.cgi?Q ... F=M&C06=et

lebama : lebada : leban 'lamama'
? ← alggermaani *χleujan-
keskülemsaksa ge-liuwen 'puhkama'
? ← alggermaani *slēpan-
vanasaksi slāpan 'magama'
vanainglise slǣpan 'magama'
● vadja levätä 'puhata, pikutada, lebada'
soome levätä 'puhata; jõude olla'
isuri levädä 'puhata; jõude olla'
Aunuse karjala ľevätä 'puhata; lamada, lebada'
lüüdi ľebäüdüdä 'puhata, magada päeval, pärast sööki'
vepsa ľebahtada 'puhata, hinge tõmmata'
Väikese levikuga murdesõna on keeleuuenduse ajal kirjakeelde toodud soome keele eeskujul. Vt ka lõbu.

However, I do suspect that even if "lebama" (or lepäämään which is strictly speaking the genuine cognate of the Estonian -ma infinitive) originally had a different sense "to rest", it did develop a figurative meaning "to lie", similarly to the case with "pidama" (which originally had a sense "to hold") in "pidama silmas"(which has a similar structure to some Balto-Slavic expressions e.g. "turėti omenyje/galvoje" or "mieć na myśli" where the main verb is "to have") because I simply cannot come up with a Finnic verb which can serve exactly as a counterpart of "to lie" in the sense of "to be in horizontal position".

Linguaphile wrote:In Estonian, too, it can be used this way and if we're just talking about the book's location it's more common to say raamat on laual or raamat on laua peal.

Yeah I was aware of that, and that was why I said, as you might have noted "are also acceptable, instead of saying "are the primary ways to express the horiznotal position"

And I don't see any issue with "lebab laual" as is suggested by the Estonian-Latvian dictionary, where it states "raamat lebab laual" <> "grāmata guļ uz galda"

http://www.eki.ee/dict/et-lv/index.cgi?Q=attapties&F=V

lebama v (atrasties) gulēt ∙ diivanil lebama gulēt uz dīvāna; raamat lebab laual grāmata guļ uz galda
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Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby stordragon » 2021-06-17, 19:50

Multiturquoise wrote:
stordragon wrote:In the Circum-Baltic area the use of "to lie" (on the table) is quite common, be it in Uralic, Balto-Slavic or Germanic languages, hence:

(et)Raamat lebab laual (=(fi)Kirja "makaa" pöydällä, (fi)makaa=(et)magama)

(lv)Grāmata guļ uz galda
(ltg)Gruomota guļ iz golda
(sgs)Kninga gol ont stala
(lt)Knyga guli ant stalo ((lv)gulēt = (lt)gulėti)

are also acceptable.. Just a side note here


Most Turkic languages also use the verbs "to lie" and "to stand" to express the same thing.

(az) Kitab stolun üstündədir.
(gag) Kiyat masanın üstündä.
(tr) Kitap masada/masanın üstünde/üzerinde(dir).
(tk) Kitap stoluň üstünde (dur).
(ba) Китап өҫтәлдә ята.
(crh) Kitap masanıñ üstündedir.
(kaa) Китап стол үстинде тур.
(kk) Кітап үстел үстінде тұр/жатыр.
(krc) Китаб стол юсюнде турады.
(kum) Китап столну уьстюнде тура.
(ky) Китеп столдун үстүндө турат/жатат.
(nog) Книга столда/стол уьстинде ятыр/туры.
(tt) Китап өстәлдә ята.
(ug) كىتاب ئۈستەل ئۈستىدە.
(uz) Китоб стол устида турибди/ётибди.
(alt) Бичик столдыҥ ӱстинде јадыры.
(cjs) Ном терги ӱстӱнде чатча.
(kjh) Книга столда чатча.
(tyv) Ном стол кырында чыдыр.
(sah) Кинигэ остуолга сытар.
(cv) Кӗнеке сӗтел ҫинче выртать.


Cool. Thanks for sharing. :mrgreen:
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Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-06-17, 22:00

To correct what I said earlier, I researched a little more and it turns out Võro does have a cognate, lebämä, but it specifically refers to resting after a meal, and primarily in the Seto dialect.
Did you notice this part in what you quoted from the etymological dictionary though?
stordragon wrote:Väikese levikuga murdesõna on keeleuuenduse ajal kirjakeelde toodud soome keele eeskujul. Vt ka lõbu.

It means that lebama was artificially introduced into the Estonian language during the language reform (early 20th century). Prior to 1919 it was used in scattered Estonian dialects in the north and southeast but with a more limited meaning: "to lie down after eating". Johannes Aavik introduced it with its new meaning in 1919.
Image
Pre-1919 the word was lebämä (in the villages/areas marked Kuu and Se on the map), lebama (marked VNg and VJg on the map), lebämaie (Lüg on the map) and lebästamma (also Lüg on the map), unknown or at least unused elsewhere in Estonia, and meant "peale sööki lebama", "pärast söömist pikali olema". (source)
Most likely Aavik's source for lebama was a combination of the dialect forms (lebada/lebama, lebädä/lebämä, lebämaie, lebästamma) and the Finnish forms (levätä/lepäämä) - taking the form that sounds the most natural to the northern Estonian dialect that the standard language was largely based on, and a meaning that is broader than that of the dialects, closer to the Finnish meaning. This is the type of process that was used for many of Aavik's words.
stordragon wrote:And I don't see any issue with "lebab laual" as is suggested by the Estonian-Latvian dictionary, where it states "raamat lebab laual" <> "grāmata guļ uz galda"
lebama v (atrasties) gulēt ∙ diivanil lebama gulēt uz dīvāna; raamat lebab laual grāmata guļ uz galda

I don't either, just be aware that it is less common (and, since you are interested in the history and origin of these words and language contacts, be aware that it was part of the deliberate language reform a century ago, except in a few northern and southeastern pockets where it meant "lie down after eating").
As for current usage: If you google the specific sentence ("raamat lebab laual") it gets only 49 google hits, and among the top hits are the Estonian<>Latvian dictionary that you mentioned and a Russian<>Estonian dictionary (in other words, they are using it when they give direct translations of grāmata guļ uz galda and книга лежит на столе) and among the other hits are several machine-translated articles that use it incorrectly. The dictionary usage is of course correct, it's simply not that common compared to "raamat on laual" (2700 google hits).

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Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby h34 » 2021-06-19, 6:02

@stordragon, Naava, Linguaphile, Multiturquoise Thanks for all these additions! I wasn't familiar with the alternative version Grāmata guļ uz galda in Latvian, so I asked about it on Hinative. Apparently the use of guļ ('is lying'; 'is sleeping') in this context has a slightly poetic ring to it, while the version with būt ('to be') – Grāmata ir uz galda – is more common.
Thanks for any corrections

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Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby Naava » 2021-06-19, 13:08

stordragon wrote:
Naava wrote:
stordragon wrote:In the Circum-Baltic area the use of "to lie" (on the table) is quite common, be it in Uralic, Balto-Slavic or Germanic languages, hence:

(et)Raamat lebab laual (=(fi)Kirja "makaa" pöydällä)

are also acceptable.. Just a side note here

I don't know if you meant to include Finnish in your list or if you had some other reason to translate Estonian like that, but this is not used in Finnish.

That was why I added quotation marks "" for the word "makaa"

It wasn't super clear you meant that (at least not to me), which is why I made my comment here. I'm also curious why you did include Finnish at all in the first post if it was not an example of using 'to lie' for 'to be on something'. :hmm:

I see you've edited the first post, so a small correction there: the infinitive is maata, not makaa. :) If you want to keep the stem visible, you could conjugate the Estonian verb to magab. I'm also a bit unsure of that = between the words since they're not synonyms. I might've used ~ myself, but I suppose it doesnt matter all that much in the end.

Also, is there any other example of a Uralic language that uses 'to lie' besides Estonian? The way you phrased it sounded like there'd be several Uralic languages that do, but after Linguaphile's posts I've started to doubt if the answer was no. (Btw (Balto-)Finnic languages might be a better term than Uralic since you're not referring to the other languages as "Indo-European" either, but that's just a sidenote.)

Linguaphile wrote:The closest Finnish equivalent would be levätä ("Kirja lepää pöydällä") and in Russian лежать ("Книга лежит на столе"). The Russian sentence is the one that was already given in this thread, but the Finnish one is not common as far as I know. (Naava can weigh in here.)

It sounds a bit odd to me (what did the book do to need rest? :mrgreen:). The physics discussions seem to use it as "not in motion" kind of sense; cf. to be at rest. I don't know about the non-physics related hits. They could be written by non-natives or bilingual people or by someone who speaks a different dialect than me. After all, Eastern dialects tend to be influenced by Russian while Western dialects have Swedish.

Most likely Aavik's source for lebama was a combination of the dialect forms (lebada/lebama, lebädä/lebämä, lebämaie, lebästamma) and the Finnish forms (levätä/lepäämä)

Did lebama become popular in speech? Is it still used nowadays?

- - except in a few northern and southeastern pockets where it meant "lie down after eating").

I think this is interesting because ruokalepo (a rest after meal, especially in the sense of lying down) is a thing in Finnish. Even Wiktionary translates it as "nap taken after a meal" even though levätä/lepo alone does not have to include napping.

h34 wrote:Apparently the use of guļ ('is lying'; 'is sleeping') in this context has a slightly poetic ring to it, while the version with būt ('to be') – Grāmata ir uz galda – is more common.

Cool!

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Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-06-19, 16:01

Naava wrote:Did lebama become popular in speech? Is it still used nowadays?

Yeah, it is, primarily as a synonym for lamama. Originally Aavik intended it to also mean "to rest" (synonym for puhkama) but it has lost that meaning.

Naava wrote:
- - except in a few northern and southeastern pockets where it meant "lie down after eating").

I think this is interesting because ruokalepo (a rest after meal, especially in the sense of lying down) is a thing in Finnish. Even Wiktionary translates it as "nap taken after a meal" even though levätä/lepo alone does not have to include napping.

Good find, thanks for posting! That's cool.

stordragon wrote:I simply cannot come up with a Finnic verb which can serve exactly as a counterpart of "to lie" in the sense of "to be in horizontal position".

If you mean non-loanwords, there's these, but again, primarily for people lying down, not things like books:
(et) pikutama, pikali olema
(vro) pikutama, pikäle olõma
(liv) pitkāltõ, pitkālõz vȱlda

In Estonian it's quite common to specify in what manner the person is lying, so instead of pikali (lying down stretched out horizontally) you might say instead külili (on one's side) , kõhuli (on one's stomach), maoli (different way of saying on one's stomach), selili (on one's back) and so on. These words can be used with the verb olema (to be) or the verb lamama (to lie). Some dialects also had specific verbs for these ways of lying (külitama, kõhutama, kõhuldama, maoldama, selitama) and these still exist but have been somewhat replaced by either the loanwords (lamama, lebama, lesima) with their more general meanings or the position + olema (kõhuli olema, maoli olema, selili olema), or a combination (such as the position + a loanword: kõhuli lebama, selili lamama and so on).

The Võro equivalents are küllütämä (lie one one's side), kõtutama (lie on one's stomach), sällütämä (lie on one's back), and with the verb "to be" there is küllülde olõma (lie on one's side), kõtuldõ olõma (lie on one's stomach) and sällülde olõma (lie on one's back).

Livonian has kiļļizõl vȱlda (lie on one's side) and sǟlgaņizõl vȱlda (lie on one's back), likewise using the verb vȱlda ("to be"). I'm not sure whether or not *maglizõl vȱlda (lie one one's stomach) was used.

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Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby stordragon » 2021-06-19, 18:06

Linguaphile wrote:To correct what I said earlier, I researched a little more and it turns out Võro does have a cognate, lebämä, but it specifically refers to resting after a meal, and primarily in the Seto dialect.
Did you notice this part in what you quoted from the etymological dictionary though?
stordragon wrote:Väikese levikuga murdesõna on keeleuuenduse ajal kirjakeelde toodud soome keele eeskujul. Vt ka lõbu.

It means that lebama was artificially introduced into the Estonian language during the language reform (early 20th century). Prior to 1919 it was used in scattered Estonian dialects in the north and southeast but with a more limited meaning: "to lie down after eating". Johannes Aavik introduced it with its new meaning in 1919.

Thanks Linguaphile that's informative. :mrgreen: Nevertheless, where have you drawn the highlighted conclusion from?

Linguaphile wrote:Image
Pre-1919 the word was lebämä (in the villages/areas marked Kuu and Se on the map), lebama (marked VNg and VJg on the map), lebämaie (Lüg on the map) and lebästamma (also Lüg on the map), unknown or at least unused elsewhere in Estonia, and meant "peale sööki lebama", "pärast söömist pikali olema". (source)


1) From page 12 of this article:
1.4. Eesti keele asendiverbid lamama ja lebama Eesti keeles on lamama verb vanem ja murdes laialdasemalt kasutusel olnud. Lebama on hiljem kirjakeelde toodud kui lamama sünonüüm. Lebama-verb on esitatud Johannes
Aaviku „Uute sõnade sõnastiku“ 1919. aasta väljaandes
(Aavik 1919: 57 ).

2) From this source that you mentioned above:
lebama lebama Kuu(-ämä) Hlj VNg VJg Se/-ämä/; lebämaie Lüg lamama, (pärast söömist) pikali olema kulub vähä lebada; `leivä `pääle pidäb lebämä, noja·h, `leibä `luusse `laskema juo Kuu; kui `saavad `süönest, siis `viskavad `pitkäli lebämaie Lüg; ega sest leiva miest ei sua, kes ei leba VJg; Ma lebäsi lõuna aigu, veido suiksõ kah Se Vrd lebästamma

3) From the the map you posted as a reference above

Does 1) + 2) + 3) lead to the exclusive conclusion you mentioned below that "Pre-1919 the word .. unknown or at least unused elsewhere in Estonia", instead of the author of that dictionary just listing those dialects where there're other spelling variants for exemplification purposes? Or do you have any further evidence that the author has explicitly indicated that exclusiveness?

Btw I'm curious about the source of your map. Does it come from this page:
http://www.eki.ee/cgi-bin/vms.cgi?mrks= , or does it come from elsewhere like http://www.stat.ee/dokumendid/71338 which I mentioned in a thread with reference to this series of maps nearly 6 years ago: http://www.somdom.com/general1/t37806#read_139674,
62_10351_6ccf1857e4d2546.png

but that link is no longer valid so I can no longer go back to stat.ee to check the details) Does it have any explicit description to the map saying that the variants of "lebama" are exclusively used in those maa's or whatever?

Linguaphile wrote:
stordragon wrote:And I don't see any issue with "lebab laual" as is suggested by the Estonian-Latvian dictionary, where it states "raamat lebab laual" <> "grāmata guļ uz galda"
lebama v (atrasties) gulēt ∙ diivanil lebama gulēt uz dīvāna; raamat lebab laual grāmata guļ uz galda

I don't either, just be aware that it is less common (and, since you are interested in the history and origin of these words and language contacts, be aware that it was part of the deliberate language reform a century ago, except in a few northern and southeastern pockets where it meant "lie down after eating").
As for current usage: If you google the specific sentence ("raamat lebab laual") it gets only 49 google hits, and among the top hits are the Estonian<>Latvian dictionary that you mentioned and a Russian<>Estonian dictionary (in other words, they are using it when they give direct translations of grāmata guļ uz galda and книга лежит на столе) and among the other hits are several machine-translated articles that use it incorrectly. The dictionary usage is of course correct, it's simply not that common compared to "raamat on laual" (2700 google hits).


No you really need to click through to the last page to find out the authentic count of matches:

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22raam ... 36&bih=754

It's 134 hits and NOT 2700 hits, of which a vast majority come from Russian sites with a ".ru" domain (of which I'm not sure if there are duplicated references).

If you add a filter "site:ee" you only get 16 hits, and NOT 2700 hits:

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22raam ... 36&bih=754

In contrast to getting 8 hits for "raamat lebab laual" site:.ee

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22raam ... IDg&uact=5

So there's no statistically significant difference between the two to make a pursuasive statement of which one is more "common or grammatically correct", or if there even is a need to discuss the commonality of correctness at all, because as I have repeatedly reiterated (is it grammatically/logically correct to say "repeatedly reiterated"? forgive my poor English) in my previous post:

stordragon wrote:In the Circum-Baltic area the use of "to lie" (on the table) is quite common, be it in Uralic, Balto-Slavic or Germanic languages, hence:
are also acceptable.. Just a side note here


Apparently the use of guļ ('is lying'; 'is sleeping') in this context has a slightly poetic ring to it, while the version with būt ('to be') – Grāmata ir uz galda – is more common.

The way you phrased it sounded like there'd be several Uralic languages that do


So I'm not going to split hairs about which one is more common than the other. This also applies to the Latvian case. Let's be clear: I was just saying that there is a possibility to use "to lie" in several Circum-Baltic languages. And I did not mention "ALL Circum-Baltic languages". Plus I don't even think most Finnic languages (of the Uralic language family) belong to the Circum-Baltic language community (Can Votic or Veps count as a coastal language in order to be qualified as "Circum-Baltic"? My stress was on "Circum-Baltic" and not on "Uralic"), with the exception of coastal Estonian and Livonian (from which std Latvian borrowed a lot of words including the interrogative clitic "vai<või"). I said "be it Uralic, .." simply because Estonian is a Uralic language which at the same time counts as a "Circum-Baltic language". I never placed a particular stress on Uralic languages. That's all. (I might do some investigation on that topic though when I have the time to focus on Circum-Baltic-Uralic studies just as I did 6 years ago)

btw Actually the use of "lebama+alalütlev" does appear in articles on mainstream Estonian portals.
https://naistekas.delfi.ee/artikkel/579 ... e-saladust

Seda ei ole võimalik saavutada siis, kui raamat lebab tavalisel laual.

And I don't see any issues with this sort of expression, despite of some arguments that it's "less common".
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Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-06-19, 19:45

stordragon wrote:Does 1) + 2) + 3) lead to the exclusive conclusion you mentioned below that "Pre-1919 the word .. unknown or at least unused elsewhere in Estonia", instead of the author of that dictionary just listing those dialects where there're other spelling variants for exemplification purposes? Or do you have any further evidence that the author has explicitly indicated that exclusiveness?

Yes, the known range of the word's usage in dialects is precisely what the map is intended to show. The map comes from Väike murdesõnastik (Dialectological dictionary of Estonian), which is both limited and comprehensive (limited because it is the "small" version of the dialect dictionary, and comprehensive because it includes examples of all dialect types; so while it might not list every individual parish, it does give a clear picture of the overall regional usage of a word). You can search it here or for example if you put in the word lebama it gives you this:
klebama "<sööma
kõhuldama "lebama
lebama
    Kuu VNg Lüg VJg Se kaart
maoldama "<lebama
73397 lines parsed. 4 matching items found.

This is how the intro to the dialect dictionary explains how to read that data:
Märksõnastiku artikkel koosneb neljast osast: l) märksõna; 2) selle murdevariandid; 3) levikuandmed; 4) andmed tähenduse kohta. Neist teine ja neljas ei tarvitse esineda kõikides sõnaartiklites.

So in this case the relevant part for us is Kuu VNg Lüg VJg Se next to the word lebama, which indicates the word's levikuandmed or distribution data. The map just places that same distribution data in its geographical location and color-codes them by dialect type.
If we search instead for a word like pikutama we can see it is more widely distributed in the dialects map. Or if we take a truly widely distributed word like olema, the resulting map shows that it is found basically everywhere.
Different spellings are irrelevant here; for example the entry for pikutama includes the form pitkutama and the map unfortunately doesn't tell us which of those two forms was used at any given location.
Likewise for olema it tells us that some dialects use the form õlema and that different dialects use lots of different third person plural forms: on, one, om, um, ovad, onvad, oma, omma, omava, ommava, umma and ummava! but on the map it lumps them all together because they're all forms of the verb olema/õlema.
So for the locations of the different spellings/pronunciations, and for any dialects missing from the "small" dictionary, we have to go to the other source that I used, Eesti murrete sõnaraamat. There if we search for lebama we get this, which does tell us the different spellings, where they are used, give sample sentences, and even another related word and adds one more parish (Hlj = Haljala, which is right next to VNg on the map, and between VNg and Kuu).
lebama lebama Kuu(-ämä) Hlj VNg VJg Se/-ämä/; lebämaie Lüg lamama, (pärast söömist) pikali olema kulub vähä lebada; `leivä `pääle pidäb lebämä, noja·h, `leibä `luusse `laskema juo Kuu; kui `saavad `süönest, siis `viskavad `pitkäli lebämaie Lüg; ega sest leiva miest ei sua, kes ei leba VJg; Ma lebäsi lõuna aigu, veido suiksõ kah Se Vrd lebästamma


stordragon wrote:Btw I'm curious about the source of your map. Does it come from this page:
http://www.eki.ee/cgi-bin/vms.cgi?mrks= , or does it come from elsewhere like http://www.stat.ee/dokumendid/71338

Väike murdesõnastik (Dialectological dictionary of Estonian)

stordragon wrote:(I actually started a thread with reference to this series of maps nearly 6 years ago: http://www.somdom.com/general1/t37806#read_139674,
62_10351_6ccf1857e4d2546.png
but that link is no longer valid so I can no longer to back to stat.ee to check the details) Does it have any explicit description to the map saying that the variants of "lebama" are exclusively used in those maa's or whatever?

Yes, again, showing the usage distribution in Estonian dialects is the purpose of the map. This explains the sources of their data in more detail, and its relationship to the larger dialect dictionary, if you're interested. I consulted both of those works. (Both are from EKI, Eesti Keele Instituut.)

Linguaphile wrote:
stordragon wrote:And I don't see any issue with "lebab laual" as is suggested by the Estonian-Latvian dictionary, where it states "raamat lebab laual" <> "grāmata guļ uz galda"
lebama v (atrasties) gulēt ∙ diivanil lebama gulēt uz dīvāna; raamat lebab laual grāmata guļ uz galda

I don't either, just be aware that it is less common (and, since you are interested in the history and origin of these words and language contacts, be aware that it was part of the deliberate language reform a century ago, except in a few northern and southeastern pockets where it meant "lie down after eating").
As for current usage: If you google the specific sentence ("raamat lebab laual") it gets only 49 google hits, and among the top hits are the Estonian<>Latvian dictionary that you mentioned and a Russian<>Estonian dictionary (in other words, they are using it when they give direct translations of grāmata guļ uz galda and книга лежит на столе) and among the other hits are several machine-translated articles that use it incorrectly. The dictionary usage is of course correct, it's simply not that common compared to "raamat on laual" (2700 google hits).


stordragon wrote:If you add a filter "site:ee" you only get 16 hits, and NOT 2700 hits:

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22raam ... 36&bih=754

In contrast to getting 8 hits for "raamat lebab laual" site:.ee

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22raam ... IDg&uact=5

So there's no statistically significant difference between the two to make a pursuasive statement of which one is more "grammatically common or correct"

Well, one has 8 and the other has 16, so that is twice as many. That does seem significant. And again I never said that it couldn't be used, only that it is less commonly used that way. By the way of the 8 hits for "raamat lebab laual" at *.ee sites, since that is the link you gave, half are translations from other languages (the 1st and the 8th from Russian, the 6th and the 7th from Swedish), two (the 3rd and the 4th) are relating to physics, and one (the 2nd) is referring to a book which is better able to lie flat on the table due to a broken spine (in other words it isn't saying "the book is on the table" but rather emphasizing its flat position). The remaining one (the 5th google hit) uses it to talk about a child seeing a book lying on the table and they are emphasizing that it is just lying there, that maybe the child will see the book there and pick it up and become interested in reading or maybe he won't, because it's just lying there, no one is doing anything with it. But the article you linked to above has this relevant section, which shows that this usage we're discussing is correct too:
Paberist esemeid esines lebama-korpuses 20 ja lamama-korpuses 3. Kõige tüüpilisem subjekt oli raamat, mis lebades on oma kõige laiemal ja pikemal küljel pikali. Kuid lebasid ka sedelid, raha, eelnõud, artiklid – paberist esemed, millel seisev positsioon enam mõeldav ei olekski. Näiteks See sedel pidi praegugi lebama õmblustest kärisenud tviidpintsaku rinnataskus, samal ajal kui arved tuli alles üles otsida sekretäril valitsevast tohuvapohust. Paljudes keeltes on tavaline, et paberid lebavad, Lemmens toob hollandi keele uurimuses välja, et mittejäigad esemed kipuvadki asendiverbi lebama endaga siduma, olgu tegu kas siis vedelike, paberite või riietega (2002).

Anyway I don't have any argument with your usage of lebama in Estonian, only that using it for things like books in Estonian doesn't seem to have originated the way you thought, and isn't widespread in Uralic or Finnic languages (in which I include pre-language-reform Estonian).

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Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby stordragon » 2021-06-20, 6:58

OK I'm going to call it a day after a long discussion on how to say "a book on the table" in these regional/minority languages or dialects. I don't see a need for further clarification on all that has been said. Thanks for the sharing anyway. :D
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Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby Naava » 2021-06-20, 8:24

stordragon wrote:Let's be clear: I was just saying that there is a possibility to use "to lie" in several Circum-Baltic languages. And I did not mention "ALL Circum-Baltic languages". Plus I don't even think most Finnic languages (of the Uralic language family) belong to the Circum-Baltic language community (Can Votic or Veps count as a coastal language in order to be qualified as "Circum-Baltic"? My stress was on "Circum-Baltic" and not on "Uralic"), with the exception of coastal Estonian and Livonian (from which std Latvian borrowed a lot of words including the interrogative clitic "vai<või"). I said "be it Uralic, .." simply because Estonian is a Uralic language which at the same time counts as a "Circum-Baltic language". I never placed a particular stress on Uralic languages. That's all.

You said "In the Circum-Baltic area the use of "to lie" (on the table) is quite common, be it in Uralic, Balto-Slavic or Germanic languages". That can be read as Uralic languages + Balto-Slavic languages + Germanic languages. You did not specify that you meant only one Uralic language, and that's why we're talking about this. It's also ambiguous whether you meant the phenomenon is wide-spread in the Baltics or the usage is quite common in these languages. You apparently meant the first one (?), we interpreted it as the latter. I'm also starting to suspect you meant to say it's somewhat common and not very common, am I right?

I'm still waiting for your answer for what the Finnish translation was doing there. How is it relevant? Why do we need to know that maata is a cognate of magama when talking about how Estonian uses the verb lebama? I don't want to press on this in order to be mean to you by the way. I only wish to know what your point was, because I haven't understood it yet.

Linguaphile wrote:
Naava wrote:Did lebama become popular in speech? Is it still used nowadays?

Yeah, it is, primarily as a synonym for lamama. Originally Aavik intended it to also mean "to rest" (synonym for puhkama) but it has lost that meaning.

And in Finnish lamata means 'to paralyze'. :mrgreen:

Linguaphile wrote:
stordragon wrote:I simply cannot come up with a Finnic verb which can serve exactly as a counterpart of "to lie" in the sense of "to be in horizontal position".

If you mean non-loanwords, there's these, but again, primarily for people lying down, not things like books:
(et) pikutama, pikali olema
(vro) pikutama, pikäle olõma
(liv) pitkāltõ, pitkālõz vȱlda

In Estonian it's quite common to specify in what manner the person is lying, so instead of pikali (lying down stretched out horizontally) you might say instead külili (on one's side) , kõhuli (on one's stomach), maoli (different way of saying on one's stomach), selili (on one's back) and so on. These words can be used with the verb olema (to be) or the verb lamama (to lie).

Same in Finnish!

Olla/maata pitkällään, kyljellään, vatsallaan, mahallaan, selällään... I coud use the first one with objects too, like in this random sentence I found by googling: masto makaa pitkällään Baltic Yachtsin sataman pihamaalla - a mast is lying in the yard of the Baltic Yacths harbour.

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Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby stordragon » 2021-06-20, 9:28

Why is one obliged to answer each & every question?

I posted a question about 2 years ago in the Finnish subforum asking for help with my VPN issue:
https://forum.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=57238

Not a single Finn in that subforum offered any help or at least show any passion for trying to offer a solution; that thread is now still standing there with an embarrassing 0 reply.

Even though I finally figured out an alternative workaround by tethering my mobile VPN network to my PC, that incident still does leave a deep impression on me. (Chances are that it was simply because there hasn't been a single Finn living abroad who has ever browsed my post over these 2 years or that some might think my question is absurd and is not worth a single reply. Who knows.) Everyone has the right to choose to respond or not to respond to others' questions. We do show mutual respect for each other. Bravo
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Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby Naava » 2021-06-20, 10:25

stordragon wrote:Why is one obliged to answer each & every question?

I posted a question about 2 years ago in the Finnish subforum asking for help with my VPN issue:
https://forum.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=57238

Not a single Finn in that subforum offered any help or at least show any passion for trying to offer a solution; that thread is now still standing there with an embarrassing 0 reply.

Even though I finally figured out an alternative workaround by tethering my mobile VPN network to my PC, that incident still does leave a deep impression on me. (Chances are that it was simply because there hasn't been a single Finn living abroad who has ever browsed my post over these 2 years or that some might think my question is absurd and is not worth a single reply. Who knows.) Everyone has the right to choose to respond or not to respond to others' questions. We do show mutual respect for each other. Bravo

With all the respect, what the fuck? :| Are you saying you're ignoring my questions and comments in this conversation as a revenge for not getting help with VPN two years ago by any of the three Finns on this forum, out of which two are only sporadically active? If that's the case, I'm sorry I couldn't help you, but there simply wasn't anything to say since I do not know anything about VPN and since I did not realise the question was targeted at me.

You do not have to talk to me if you don't wish to, and that's fine - but if you do want to show "mutual respect", you could have at least said you prefer not to answer instead of pretending my posts are invisible when there's a conversation going on.

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Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby stordragon » 2021-06-20, 12:01

Naava wrote:
stordragon wrote:Why is one obliged to answer each & every question?

I posted a question about 2 years ago in the Finnish subforum asking for help with my VPN issue:
https://forum.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=57238

Not a single Finn in that subforum offered any help or at least show any passion for trying to offer a solution; that thread is now still standing there with an embarrassing 0 reply.

Even though I finally figured out an alternative workaround by tethering my mobile VPN network to my PC, that incident still does leave a deep impression on me. (Chances are that it was simply because there hasn't been a single Finn living abroad who has ever browsed my post over these 2 years or that some might think my question is absurd and is not worth a single reply. Who knows.) Everyone has the right to choose to respond or not to respond to others' questions. We do show mutual respect for each other. Bravo

With all the respect, what the fuck? :| Are you saying you're ignoring my questions and comments in this conversation as a revenge for not getting help with VPN two years ago by any of the three Finns on this forum, out of which two are only sporadically active? If that's the case, I'm sorry I couldn't help you, but there simply wasn't anything to say since I do not know anything about VPN and since I did not realise the question was targeted at me.

You do not have to talk to me if you don't wish to, and that's fine - but if you do want to show "mutual respect", you could have at least said you prefer not to answer instead of pretending my posts are invisible when there's a conversation going on.

It had nothing to do with the revenge stuff but I do feel a sense of hostility from the very beginning you started to address my posts & that's why i don't really want to reason with you. Do I have to beg you :shock: for the right of not responding without having to clarify that I was just kind of furious and was not "pretending" anything as what you accused me of?

>>but there simply wasn't anything to say since I do not know anything about VPN.
>>you could have at least said you prefer not to answer
---
I dont know anything about the answer to your Finnish question either, why should I be rushed to reply? Did you say it explicitly that you preferred not to answer my VPN question or at least "sorry I can't help here"? What is mutual respect in your eyes? Why the double standard?

>>any of the three Finns on this forum, out of which two are only sporadically active?
---
This is simply ridiculous. Are you telling me all those new threads with >0 replies above mine are ALL replied to by those Non-Finns or ones with no Finnish knowledge/skills to just understand what I was asking for (or tell me my Finnish is that bad for them to understand) and offer some basic help to the best of their ability? None of them ever saw my post beneath theirs? Nobody, over a total of 2 years. Lol

And no my VPN thread wasn't initially targeted at you (until you confirmed the hostility in this thread over and over again which is why I don't really want to reason with you) but had I been in your position, as a subforum moderator I would not have left any thread in my subforum unanswered over a long period of time, even if I could not resolve it on my own (which is at least part of our culture), so frankly speaking yeah I was annoyed (I think it's an obligation for each and every moderator to make the questioners feel easy & comfortable, and not make them feel "I am invisible in their subforum.They simply ignored me"), but I would not resort to "revenge" at least not the way as you think.

What the fuck? I'm really wondering what this Finnish forum moderator is saying. "Keep your mouth tidy". End
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Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby Naava » 2021-06-20, 13:46

stordragon wrote:It had nothing to do with the revenge stuff but I do feel a sense of hostility from the very beginning you started to address my posts & that's why i don't really want to reason with you. Do I have to beg you :shock: for the right of not responding without having to clarify that I was just kind of furious and was not "pretending" anything as what you accused me of?

>>but there simply wasn't anything to say since I do not know anything about VPN.
>>you could have at least said you prefer not to answer
---
I dont know anything about the answer to your Finnish question either, why should I be rushed to reply? Did you say it explicitly that you preferred not to answer my VPN question or at least "sorry I can't help here"? What is mutual respect in your eyes? Why the double standard?

>>any of the three Finns on this forum, out of which two are only sporadically active?
---
This is simply ridiculous. Are you telling me all those new threads with >0 replies above mine are ALL replied to by those Non-Finns or ones with no Finnish knowledge/skills to just understand what I was asking for (or tell me my Finnish is that bad for them to understand) and offer some basic help to the best of their ability? None of them ever saw my post beneath theirs? Nobody, over a total of 2 years. Lol

And no my VPN thread wasn't initially targeted at you (until you confirmed the hostility in this thread over and over again which is why I don't really want to reason with you) but had I been in your position, as a subforum moderator I would not have left any thread in my subforum unanswered over a long period of time, even if I could not resolve it on my own (which is at least part of our culture), so frankly speaking yeah I was annoyed (I think it's an obligation for each and every moderator to make the questioners feel easy & comfortable, and not make them feel "I am invisible in their subforum.They simply ignored me"), but I would not resort to "revenge" at least not the way as you think.

What the fuck? I'm really wondering what this Finnish forum moderator is saying. "Keep your mouth tidy". End


I am honestly surprised or rather shocked to hear you are furious at me. I had absolutely no idea. I had not thought I had wronged you either two years ago or in this thread, and could not imagine that was the reason for your reaction. I apologise that I have made you feel this way, and I hope you believe me when I say I have never intended to appear hostile, to insult, or to hurt your feelings in any way. I am truly sorry that's what has happened.

When I was asked to become a moderator, I was instructed to keep the subforum clean of spam, which I have done. It had never occured to me that as a part of this role I would be expected to comment on new threads if I had nothing to say or that not doing so could cause resentment. From my experience, it is quite normal to not get any answers online if nobody knows how to help and that's why I did not think it'd be impolite. I think your idea (or expectation) is a very good one though. I'll start doing it from now on! Thank you for pointing it out.

For what it's worth, I have tried to answer any question when I have known the answer or known where the answer can be found (even outside the Finnish subforum). I hope you do not think of that as a sign of me not wanting to help you specifically. If you had asked or ever in future wish to ask anything about Finnish language, linguistics, or culture, I promise I will be just as happy to give you the most detailed answer I can as I would do to anyone else here. (I know now that you are angry and perhaps never wish to speak to me again, but I still want you to know that if you ever change your mind or need help, I have no ill feelings towards you.)

If you or anyone else reading this would wish to explain what made me seem hostile in this thread, I'd be very grateful. I believed I had written to you the exact same way I have talked to everyone else here, but I must have been wrong. Like I've said, I did not and do not want to insult people, and I would like to avoid repeating the same mistakes in future. (Just to be sure, I'm not expecting or demanding it from you stordragon. I am already glad you let me know how you feel.)

________________________

I see you have edited your post while I was writing this, so I'll answer to these new points you made before sending this.

I dont know anything about the answer to your Finnish question either, why should I be rushed to reply? Did you say it explicitly that you preferred not to answer my VPN question or at least "sorry I can't help here"? What is mutual respect in your eyes? Why the double standard?

I thought you would have an answer because it was a post made by you, but more than anything else I wished you would have in some way acknowledged I was talking to you. I thought you might not have realised I was asking about it, which is why I asked again. It did not sound hostile to me, but I can see we interpreted my words in very different ways. I'm sorry I could not convey the right tone.

I did not write a post to your thread for the reason I explained above: I did not think I was expected to because I was not addressed directly and did not think or know it was my duty. I addressed you directly here, and that is why I thought you would answer - just like I would do myself. I see we have different expectations of how to behave online, and maybe it has something to do with culture or our previous experiences. In any case, I apologise for appearing rude and maybe inconsistent to you.

This is simply ridiculous. Are you telling me all those new threads with >0 replies above mine are ALL replied by those Non-Finns or ones with no Finnish knowledge/skills to just understand what I was asking for (or is my Finnish that bad for them to understand) and offer some basic help to the best of their ability? Nobody, over a total of 2 years. Lol

If you look at those threads, you can see the comments are made by me, Varislintu (who's inactive most of the time), or the original poster answering to us. These posters rarely go to other threads.

There's also occasionally the language learners Woods, suruvaippa, and Mats Norberg. I can only assume they haven't had a need for VPN, but they are also not very active commenters.

If you also look at the topics of the threads that have gotten replies, you can see that they are about Finnish language. The questions about books/manga or request for corrections have not gotten any replies. I sincerely hope you believe me that the number of replies is not related to who is asking but what the topic is, and that I have not treated you differently from everyone else. (Or, if I have, I am not aware of it and I have certainly not meant it.)

Linguaphile
Posts: 3553
Joined: 2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-06-20, 16:16

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:
stordragon wrote:I simply cannot come up with a Finnic verb which can serve exactly as a counterpart of "to lie" in the sense of "to be in horizontal position".

If you mean non-loanwords, there's these, but again, primarily for people lying down, not things like books:
(et) pikutama, pikali olema
(vro) pikutama, pikäle olõma
(liv) pitkāltõ, pitkālõz vȱlda

Same in Finnish!
Olla/maata pitkällään, kyljellään, vatsallaan, mahallaan, selällään... I coud use the first one with objects too, like in this random sentence I found by googling: masto makaa pitkällään Baltic Yachtsin sataman pihamaalla - a mast is lying in the yard of the Baltic Yacths harbour.

Oh, good point! Yes, you could use pikutama or pikali olema in Estonian with things like masts, poles, trees, statues, pillars, mattresses, and so on - anything that is longer than it is wide and in a horizontal position. And külili olema works for boats, other vehicles, propane tanks, refrigerators, basically anything that can be lying on its side. With objects it's often (but not exclusively) things that shouldn't be lying that way but are, so it can have a kind of "it's-lying-the-wrong-way" connotation, depending on the object involved.

Naava wrote:You said "In the Circum-Baltic area the use of "to lie" (on the table) is quite common, be it in Uralic, Balto-Slavic or Germanic languages".
[...]
Why do we need to know that maata is a cognate of magama when talking about how Estonian uses the verb lebama? I don't want to press on this in order to be mean to you by the way. I only wish to know what your point was, because I haven't understood it yet.

Yeah, I think if it were not for those two points, this whole discussion would not have happened because there would have been nothing to ask about or discuss. (I mean if the five sentences "Raamat lebab laual, Grāmata guļ uz galda, Gruomota guļ iz golda, Kninga gol ont stala, Knyga guli ant stalo" had just been added to the list without those comments, I would have seen no reason to respond at all.)
The questions were directed at Stordragon because they were questions about why Stordragon had made those comments or what was meant by them, since we didn't understand the reasoning; no one else could answer that except for Stordragon. Not that Stordragon has to answer either. But I agree with you Naava, it is the part I was curious about and (from my point of view) the reason for all the posts that followed.

stordragon wrote:I posted a question about 2 years ago in the Finnish subforum asking for help with my VPN issue:
https://forum.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=57238

Not a single Finn in that subforum offered any help or at least show any passion for trying to offer a solution; that thread is now still standing there with an embarrassing 0 reply.

Even though I finally figured out an alternative workaround by tethering my mobile VPN network to my PC, that incident still does leave a deep impression on me. (Chances are that it was simply because there hasn't been a single Finn living abroad who has ever browsed my post over these 2 years or that some might think my question is absurd and is not worth a single reply. Who knows.)

I remember seeing that post (and some others on a similar topic on other subforums, I think) and being curious about them. Your question asked if any Finns living abroad could help, and I don't know of any Finns living abroad on this forum. I had absolutely nothing to contribute because not only am I not a Finn living abroad, not a fluent Finnish speaker, not a frequent contributor to that forum and don't watch the videos you were trying to access, I've also never used a VPN and I didn't even really know what a VPN was until seeing references to it here. Your post made me realize that when I see "this video is not available in your region" there is a way around it which some people use, which is something I didn't know, but still it's not something I've been inclined to try. I think the restrictions, at least in the situations I've personally come across them, are often for copyright or monetary reasons which I'm not inclined to circumvent (in other words, they're things which the people who have put them online don't want me to access freely from here and I'll respect that). I've gathered that your situation is rather different from most of ours.
Basically I think you'll find that people who don't use VPNs really don't know anything about them or at least that's true in my case. In any case, you asked your question in Finnish, which is logical for the Finnish forum but also limits the audience. It was a highly specific thing on a forum with only a few Finnish-speakers; the chances of anyone here both understanding the question and knowing the answer are really small. It's certainly worth asking, but not surprising when no one can answer, and not surprising that people who don't know the answer don't jump in to say so.
Most people here don't respond if they have nothing to contribute. Sometimes I'll answer part of a question and say "maybe so-and-so can weigh in on this other part" in response to part I can't answer, but it wouldn't occur to me (or even seem appropriate) to do that if I wasn't able to answer at least part of the question, unless the question was directed specifically to me.

User avatar
stordragon
Posts: 458
Joined: 2004-10-14, 13:09
Country: CN China (中国)

Re: The book is on the table. There is a book on the table.

Postby stordragon » 2021-06-21, 12:08

Many thanks to both of you, @Naava and @Linguaphile for your elaborated clarification. I really appreciate your time and sincerity in helping dispel the misunderstanding. :yep: But I'm very sorry I cannot go too far into every single bit of your response and have to merely state the facts from my end.

btw some background stories here: (please don't quote any sensitive words in my post which I'll need to remove from the thread to prevent potential issues that I'm going to explain hereinafter)
I actually posted many threads on similar topics in a lot of other subforums, most of which are related to the reception of geoblocked subtitled foreign language TV series:

https://forum.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=52473
(I put exactly the same question on italki https://www.italki.com/post/question-420259 and received a warm response from Damian, who subsequently became a good friend of mine. Nevertheless, he's somehow no longer reachable on WeChat now)
https://forum.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=58000
https://forum.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=54031
(I really appreciate the Latvian forum moderator Sol Invictus for her(? I remember she's too a female moderator despite of her username) time & effort in responding to my thread above but this time I had to say sorry to her for not having replied in time simply due to not having had enough bandwidth on forum discussion then and thereafter forgot to go on with the discussion. What an embarrassment)

Although Damian@italki and SolInvictus@unilang did respond to my thread and offered warm help to my questions (Much appreciated :yep: ), most of the time, my threads are left hanging with no response or very few, brief response.

Why am I always facing this embarrasing situation? I once seriously suspected if it had something to do with something beyond the thread content itself: I suspect it was the n@tional flag (PRC) that Unilang imposed on me like on every other forum member, the flag beneath my avatar that was the reason why I was discriminated against & the reason why some forum members from Poland & Czech Republic are reluctant to respond to my post because they saw the PRC flag beneath my avatar which represents "c*mm**ism" -- some of their ancestors were deeply hurt by the totalit***ist c*mm**ism -- I'm using asterisk symbols to avoid being dectected by the internet cens*rship programme launched by the C*P regime of China. The C*P regime is now entering an new era of the so-called "sophisticated totalit***ism" featured by highly developed AI surveillance cameras throughout the entire society where one might be arrested or even thrown into prison on grounds of his words on internet as a preventive means against revolutions of its people; therefore one must pay extreme attention to his words -- and they are disgusted by the flag I placed under my avatar). Maybe my assumption is wrong but one of my ex-colleagues did tell me what a difficult situation many Chinese descendants living abroad had been facing: once a Danish airline put a notice board at the entrance saying: "Chinese (=totalit***ism lovers? =COVID19 manufacturers?) (On the one hand, they do not distinguish between the regime and its people; on the other hand, this regime's brai*washing education system is indeed severely undermining the quality of its new generation both in terms of IQ and EQ levels, and therefore a whole group of people are being distortedly represented by a small-bunch of bad individuals) and Turks (=terr**ism lovers?) are banned from boarding!".. I was really shocked upon hearing that story.

(btw my grandpa was a member of KMT party!! and NONE of my family has anything to do with the thuggish gang)

Many CN descendants living abroad are struggling with their "dual-or-null" identity: on the one hand, they hate the CN regime which deprives them of the right of having "dual citizenship" which forces them to make a difficult decision:

EITHER
To go back to CN to enjoy a life with the lack of freedom of speech, a life with GFW (GreatFireWall) to ensure Chinese citizens have NO access to GOOGLE to obtain the true information from the external world (including how their gov is rated by people from around the world), a party-run BAIDU search engine with brai*washing articles full of praises for C*P and the so-called "社会正能量" (the younger generation esp most of those born after 1995 never had any idea of the 1989 Ti@n@anmen Event), a search engine full of negative news about almost all other countries around the world except Russia (which I call "Putinland"), Belarusia ("Lukashenkoland"), Cuba ("Castroland") North Korea ("Kimland"), Iran ("Khameneiland") etc that the r*gime considered as "closest buddies".
OR
To stay in their country of residence (of which most are Western countries) full of negative news & exaggerated prejudice against CN.
What decision would you make if you were in their position?

(Im just curious: When can we expect a genuine breakthrough in Elon Musk's Starlink programme to tear down the disgusting GFW that is mind-controlling the new generation of China and rescue them from being brai*washed?

COVID19 manufactured by a gang of devils has inflamed a
a even bigger wave of discrimination against some specific ethnic groups throughout the world. I'll spare no effort fighting with it, definitely)

What a long story! Now lets put a stop here, I dont want to sophisticate a simple forum thread, it would be too time-consuming, both for you guys and me, which is why I have to say let's leave it as is for now..!
Last edited by stordragon on 2021-06-24, 12:40, edited 1 time in total.
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