Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby sa wulfs » 2010-12-18, 12:59

邪悪歌 wrote: :lol: I was kidding about all the other european languages in favor of romance loanwords... if I was really trying to be racist I would've been more serious about it... although I do favor germanic loanwords in general over others

That's the thing, it's stuff many people say half-kidding, but which betrays a very real bias underneath. Often it's like racist jokes told by an otherwise not racist (or not particularly racist) person - they're funny only insomuch as there's real racism justifying it.

I like Old English better than Spanish (although I like Spanish a lot), by the way. But I feel people who favour Germanic loanwords and who would want to get rid of Romance words in English have no understanding of what English is, of its history and character.
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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby Æxylis » 2010-12-18, 13:19

sa wulfs wrote:
邪悪歌 wrote: :lol: I was kidding about all the other european languages in favor of romance loanwords... if I was really trying to be racist I would've been more serious about it... although I do favor germanic loanwords in general over others

That's the thing, it's stuff many people say half-kidding, but which betrays a very real bias underneath. Often it's like racist jokes told by an otherwise not racist (or not particularly racist) person - they're funny only insomuch as there's real racism justifying it.

I like Old English better than Spanish (although I like Spanish a lot), by the way. But I feel people who favour Germanic loanwords and who would want to get rid of Romance words in English have no understanding of what English is, of its history and character.

I actually don't have any issues with romance languages (well, besides french, but I have personal reasons for that which have nothing to do with the language itself) and actually have a bit of an interest in Brazilian Portuguese and Aromanian/Romanian... I was raised by somebody who is incredibly racist so sometimes the jokes may come out, but I personally have no issues with any race and if I do have a problem with a language or a group of languages it's because of the languages themselves and not because of the people that speak them. You may notice in one of my other responses I actually said that I find it sad when people do judge others simply because they may have an accent or something like that...
In either case, like I said, I have no issues with romance languages and actually find some of them to be somewhat interesting... I just don't feel that they belong in English... as far as the history or the culture of English goes, yeah, I do feel that the whole "prestige of latin and french" thing was wrong and that they should have stayed true to their own language instead of taking somebody else's... once again, this has nothing to do with the languages themselves, I just don't feel that they belonged there...
The way I see it they corrupted the language by changing its grammar and syntax so much that it's barely recognizable compared to other germanic languages and this is the part that irks me... so don't go off all high and mighty thinking that you know me or that you know for certain that I must be a racist just because I happen to believe that romance languages have no place in English :?
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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2010-12-18, 14:16

Well, I've got to admit, 邪悪歌 it does sound a bit racist..

邪悪歌 wrote:I have no issues with romance languages and actually find some of them to be somewhat interesting... I just don't feel that they belong in English...


average racist wrote:I have nothing against blacks, I just feel they don't belong here. As long as they live on trees in Africa, I'm happy.

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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2010-12-18, 16:08

loqu wrote:I agree, but I accepted long ago that 80% of this forum is anti-Romance in every aspect.


I don't know. France and French people don't have a good reputation for sure but the French language has a lot of aficionados here... and so has Spanish. No ?

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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby Kenny » 2010-12-18, 17:49

Aficionados of French? I can really only think of myself, Dingbats and Narbleh, whom ( :) ) we rarely ever see here anymore (but that's due to lack of time, I suppose). Also, Narbleh once said something about him not really loving French but rather just not wanting to waste all the years he had spent studying it. As for Formiko, he explicitly stated that he's not into it at all and it's just about not forgetting what he knows.

Oh...almost forgot about JackFrost. Okay, that's one more? Who else? :D
Modus.irrealis, maybe, but it's just one of his many languages (which is not to say that he doesn't speak it well, it's just that he's not all crazy about it). Same for Talib.

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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby Æxylis » 2010-12-18, 21:20

Rumpetroll wrote:Well, I've got to admit, 邪悪歌 it does sound a bit racist..

邪悪歌 wrote:I have no issues with romance languages and actually find some of them to be somewhat interesting... I just don't feel that they belong in English...


average racist wrote:I have nothing against blacks, I just feel they don't belong here. As long as they live on trees in Africa, I'm happy.

I said the languages, not the people that speak them... feeling as though the languages themselves don't belong in English doesn't have anything at all to do with the people that speak said languages... I couldn't care less if it was a US speaker, a Canadian speaker, a European speaker, whatever, that doesn't matter, I'm saying the language doesn't belong there... quit trying to read into something that's not there, silly people :nono:
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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby sa wulfs » 2010-12-19, 1:28

I didn't say you're racist. I said I believe your attitude and that of many other people here betrays a subconscious racist way of thinking that is present in your culture, upbringing, personality or what have you. Big difference.
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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby mōdgethanc » 2010-12-19, 2:34

It hasn't occurred to anyone yet that languages aren't people?

Disliking Romance languages might be chauvinistic, but I hardly see how it's racist, unless it's prefaced with "I hate Romance languages because they're mostly spoken by black and Hispanic people".
Modus.irrealis, maybe, but it's just one of his many languages (which is not to say that he doesn't speak it well, it's just that he's not all crazy about it). Same for Talib.
I don't speak it well, but I really wish I did. So far that's mostly been due to laziness on my part.

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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby Francisco » 2010-12-19, 2:41

Talib wrote: "I hate Romance languages because they're mostly spoken by black and Hispanic people".


Doesn't that happen with English too? Disliking Romance languages is like disliking expensive parfum, just a personal choice.

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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby mōdgethanc » 2010-12-19, 2:44

People do hate English as spoken by black people, but not because a majority of its speakers aren't white (although they are). I don't think that's why people hate Romance languages either. I just think that's the only way you could say people who dislike them do so because it's racist.

The real reason people dislike them so much is probably because of their overexposure. 95% of materials targeted towards second language learners seem to feature this family or German.

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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby Varislintu » 2010-12-19, 8:25

Talib wrote:The real reason people dislike them so much is probably because of their overexposure. 95% of materials targeted towards second language learners seem to feature this family or German.


Comments like these don't help either :lol::

Francisco wrote:Disliking Romance languages is like disliking expensive parfum, just a personal choice.


Being basically taught your whole life that something is high class and beautiful makes you dislike it at some point ;).
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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby Æxylis » 2010-12-19, 9:10

Varislintu wrote:
Talib wrote:The real reason people dislike them so much is probably because of their overexposure. 95% of materials targeted towards second language learners seem to feature this family or German.


Comments like these don't help either :lol::

Francisco wrote:Disliking Romance languages is like disliking expensive parfum, just a personal choice.


Being basically taught your whole life that something is high class and beautiful makes you dislike it at some point ;).


I agree that indeed there is too much overexposure of the languages... anytime I try to find materials for say, Finnish or Swedish, the first ones that usually pop up are Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese, and German... where's the love for Finnish and Swedish? :doggy:

I agree on the second point too... I see nothing "high class" or inherently "beautiful" about French or Italian or the like, even though everybody tells you it is so... that doesn't mean I hate them :lol:

I don't see what's necessarily chauvanist about feeling as though a language, such as English, should remain with its brethren languages... what I mean is that although English is called a germanic language, there is very little evidence left of this, it's practically a germanic/romance hybrid nowadays... now if at the very least we can get back letters like þ and wynn and the like, and perhaps even write it in runes altogether, then that would be a step in the right direction ;)
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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby sa wulfs » 2010-12-19, 10:16

Talib wrote:People do hate English as spoken by black people, but not because a majority of its speakers aren't white (although they are). I don't think that's why people hate Romance languages either. I just think that's the only way you could say people who dislike them do so because it's racist.

The real reason people dislike them so much is probably because of their overexposure. 95% of materials targeted towards second language learners seem to feature this family or German.

I'm not saying people who dislike Romance languages are racist. Aside from Spanish, I'm not a fan of any Romance language and I actively dislike French.

I'm talking about the kind of people who would want to go ethnic cleansing on English's ass.
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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby kibo » 2010-12-19, 10:32

That's what purism (even the selective kind) is all about.
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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby mōdgethanc » 2010-12-19, 12:01

Being basically [taught your whole life that something is high class and beautiful makes you dislike it at some point.
For some people. Despite having been told this about French my whole life, I still like it, yet I don't really like Italian.
I agree that indeed there is too much overexposure of the languages... anytime I try to find materials for say, Finnish or Swedish, the first ones that usually pop up are Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese, and German... where's the love for Finnish and Swedish?
They have far fewer speakers and are only official in those two countries. It's not surprising there would be more material for French and Spanish. Having said that, there should be at least some materials for them.
I'm not saying people who dislike Romance languages are racist. Aside from Spanish, I'm not a fan of any Romance language and I actively dislike French.

I'm talking about the kind of people who would want to go ethnic cleansing on English's ass.
Who are they racist towards? Other white people?

It's chauvinistic indeed, but that's not the same as being racist.

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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2010-12-19, 12:39

Talib wrote:
It's chauvinistic indeed, but that's not the same as being racist.


Yes. Chauvinistic. That's the term that explains it best.

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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby mōdgethanc » 2010-12-19, 13:00

All right. I understand you're not native speakers and the distinction between all these different kinds of discrimination might seem pedantic. In fact, I doubt many English speakers could tell you the difference between ethnic chauvinism and racism.

But I don't think that's what motivates English purists at heart. Anglish is a word game done for fun; nobody really thinks we can purge English of all its foreign influences. Do they?

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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby sa wulfs » 2010-12-19, 14:13

All right. I understand you're not native speakers and the distinction between all these different kinds of discrimination might seem pedantic.

Well, that's quite condescending of you.

The reason why I used the word "racism" was to illustrate the Rule Germania vibe. And to some extent, I must admit, to rile people up. But it's mostly the former. Obviously if you got to the root of the problem, 95% of it would be plain snobbism mixed with ignorance.

English has been taking Latin loanwords since before its written record began, and it's been doing so en masse for most of its recorded history. To claim that Romance words are somehow foreign or don't belong in the English language is ridiculous. What would people think if I went around saying I wished Spanish got rid of its Arabic loanwords? Hello, that's what makes Spanish Spanish (among other things).
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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby Æxylis » 2010-12-19, 15:40

sa wulfs wrote:I must admit, to rile people up. ... What would people think if I went around saying I wished Spanish got rid of its Arabic loanwords?

people would give you props for wanting to make spanish cool again ;) :twisted:
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Re: Your attitudes towards “purity” and loan-words

Postby mōdgethanc » 2010-12-19, 15:44

Well, that's quite condescending of you.
I explained right after that these are terms most native speakers aren't sure about. So it's really not at all, but if you want to take it that way I can't stop you.
The reason why I used the word "racism" was to illustrate the Rule Germania vibe.
Britannia.

...oh I see. That's a loanword.
English has been taking Latin loanwords since before its written record began, and it's been doing so en masse for most of its recorded history. To claim that Romance words are somehow foreign or don't belong in the English language is ridiculous. What would people think if I went around saying I wished Spanish got rid of its Arabic loanwords? Hello, that's what makes Spanish Spanish (among other things).
It's probably more about the sheer volume of them. There are many more Romance words in English than Arabic words in Spanish, right? And they only really started borrowing in droves relatively recently. If Latin words appear in Anglo-Saxon, they are probably acceptable to Anglish users.


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