Pet Peeves

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linguoboy
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Re: Pet Peeves

Postby linguoboy » 2012-05-18, 13:28

имен wrote:You make a good point. However, unless you assume that there was a proto-human language, which is highly controversial at best at the moment, the odds are that languages in NA and Eurasia emerged at different time.

What do you mean "emerged"? You're confusing the map with the territory. "Languages" are abstractions; just because we give distinct names to various varieties and stages, that doesn't mean there are any actual breaks in the continuum.

The only exception are creoles and conlangs, which can truly be said to have "emerged" at a particular date. Everything else just represents an incremental change from what came before it.
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Re: Pet Peeves

Postby language learner » 2012-05-18, 13:35

I simply lack vocabulary; I meant that different proto-languages are likely to have been formed in different milleniums.

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Re: Pet Peeves

Postby linguoboy » 2012-05-18, 14:29

имен wrote:I simply lack vocabulary; I meant that different proto-languages are likely to have been formed in different milleniums.

Are you talking about polygenesis of human language? Because otherwise my point still stands. (I'm not dogmatic about humans having language before they expanded out of Africa, but it does seem the most likely explanation given the degree of organisation that would most likely have required.)
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Re: Pet Peeves

Postby ling » 2012-05-18, 15:05

Luke wrote:I don't like it when someone compares two languages spoken at the same time and say that one is older than the other. What?

Sometimes they mean "This one deviates less from their ancestral or proto language than that one".
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Re: Pet Peeves

Postby Lur » 2012-05-18, 15:09

But that's a different thing altogether! One thing is time, other thing is derivation.

If we take into account the human lineages that don't include Homo sapiens then we could have multiple protolanguages. But I also see multiple protolanguages as possible for the sapiens lineage itself as well.

But I see no reason to think of a protolanguage appearing on the way to America, for example. These were modern humans just like us. I'd put the protolanguage way back, appearing in paralell with other characteristics, the inevitable conclusion of slowly comunicating to each other in a more complex manner with the passage of time, as humanity evolved.

I see languages as a continuum too. That's why I said spoken at the same time. However, if I take 14th Century English and compare it to 17th Century Portuguese, to put an example, then I'll consider the former to be older than the later.
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Re: Pet Peeves

Postby ling » 2012-05-18, 15:21

I'd surmise (note: I'm no expert or scholar) that human language developed in Africa before the first major migrations of Homo sapiens out of Africa. If this is true, then the world's language families outside of Africa may well have originated from the migrating tribes, and developed in a more or less continual fashion, but so many changes have taken place in the intervening tens of thousands of years that almost all traces of common origin are lost.

Could languages pop put of nowhere? Possibly: imagine one tribe attacks another, killing almost everyone. There are only a few survivors, none of whom have well-developed language skills. Perhaps only a handful of children survived. Many features of their language would be simplified, and they may have to invent vocabulary out of the blue. The language would be at its heart belong to its ancestral family, but there would be radical changes taking place within a generation.
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Re: Pet Peeves

Postby Lur » 2012-05-18, 15:34

Better. That's only for the sapiens, but when they were in Africa there were people everywhere, who would have languages with their own distinct sounds (different species)(*). When, for example, the sapiens got out of Africa, they could have started to receive influence (or the other way around) from Neanderthal and Denisovan languages groups. And further east, from Red Deer People, and Homo floresiensis. And I don't know if at some point during the existence of sapiens there were still late forms of Homo erectus. Given that there was exchange of genetic material, I think it's fairly possible these "main modern" linguistic groups, which maybe had distinct protolinguistic origins, influenced each other before the sapiens people entered America from the North.

Now. All these other people, they came from Africa too, apparently. But I don't know if when their ancestors got out of Africa they had a protolanguage or not. If they didn't then we could have entirely different language families that appeared outside of Africa.

But in the end, their non sapiens protolanguage would have come from a pre-protolanguage of African origin. And I don't think there's even a clear point of language apparition. When I see other primates interacting, I'm under the impression that I'm seeing a sort of pre-pre-pre-protolanguage...

(*) Now this is an amazing thought. Today, when only one species remains, all our languages are within our phonetic borders, they belong in the sapiens group. But go back a few thousand years and there are entire biological groups of languages, containing each their own language lineages. For example, Neanderthal language is supposed to have a more general nasal sound that ours, because their way of producing sounds would be a bit different to ours.
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Re: Pet Peeves

Postby ling » 2013-05-14, 3:25

OK, pet peeve:

When I'm using recorded materials to learn a language, and each lesson starts out with a needless bit of music, plus the lessons themselves contain long, boring intros in English and too much English explanation.

One recording I listened to didn't get to the meat of the lesson until the timer read 1:26.

I'm fine with a little bit of English, but please: let's get right to the learning.
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Re: Pet Peeves

Postby Gormur » 2020-08-21, 18:15

I figured out what I instinctively say in this construction

My friend and I
Me and my friend

Mine is my friend and me or if emphasized Both my friend and I which is equal to saying (the) both of us for me

On topic, I think my pet peeves remain pretty much untouched. I honestly don't even try to figure out what people are saying anymore. If they're going to use slang with me they should explain themselves or I won't listen to them anymore :)
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

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Re: Pet Peeves

Postby languagepotato » 2020-08-24, 18:06

I can think of three pet peeves I have in Dutch
people pronouncing puzzel with a long u (/y/), and when people say bijgekomen instead of aangekomen for gaining weight and the "Gooische R"

In Moroccan Arabic, I can think of one thing that really stands out as a pet peeve of mine, affricating stuff
For example the word for apple is usually pronounced /də.fɛħ/, but more and more frequently /t͡sə.fɛħ/, another example of this is flipping s and t, the word for wait is normally pronounced /stə.nʌ/ but this gets pronounced as /t͡sə.nʌ/ by the same people who affricate the regular t
native: (ar-MA) (nl)
very comfortable: (en-US)
somewhat comfortable: (de) (es) (af)
forgetting: (fr) (ar-arb)
touristy level: (ro) (sv)(ber)(pl)
someday hopefully: (ja) (sq) (cs) (tr) and many others

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Re: Pet Peeves

Postby Gormur » 2020-09-08, 17:49

I don't like and almost don't understand English speakers when they insert affricates. Things like got you, bet you; pronunciation spellings are gotcha' and betcha'

I can't accept hafta' as being correct either, even if I've heard it a few times. Mine is always with a v so you have have to [hæv tu], never with an f. That'd sound like you were talking about a half of something :hmm:

Even things like coulda' are just plain off to my ears. I sometimes even stress it, I could have. Coulda' shoulda' woulda' - No, I wouldn't've :hmm:

Lastly, I've been reading the of construction in peoples' typing lately. It gets tiresome to figure out what they're trying to express. I know it's a Midwestern dialect (or several) but it gets annoying. I should of done it. My question is why? You can't be two places at the same time :lol: :hmm:
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma


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