What type of rhotic is this?

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What type of rhotic is this?

Postby aaakknu » 2020-12-19, 12:54

https://voca.ro/15FSwik2AbvV

Is it a uvular trill?
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Re: What type of rhotic is this?

Postby vijayjohn » 2020-12-19, 14:14

Maybe. I can't tell just from hearing it. :hmm:

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Re: What type of rhotic is this?

Postby aaakknu » 2020-12-19, 15:20

vijayjohn wrote:Maybe. I can't tell just from hearing it. :hmm:

Should I post a video?

I am curious what kind of rhotic I pronounce. I am not able to do any alveolar rhotics (whether tap, trill or approximant). I am trying to learn, but fail. From what I see in the mirror, I do it with the back of the tongue, not the tip.
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Re: What type of rhotic is this?

Postby vijayjohn » 2020-12-19, 15:28

aaakknu wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Maybe. I can't tell just from hearing it. :hmm:

Should I post a video?

It might help.
I am curious what kind of rhotic I pronounce. I am not able to do any alveolar rhotics (whether tap, trill or approximant). I am trying to learn, but fail. From what I see in the mirror, I do it with the back of the tongue, not the tip.

I suspect it could be doubly articulated at both the alveolar ridge and the uvula.

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Re: What type of rhotic is this?

Postby aaakknu » 2020-12-20, 19:44

vijayjohn wrote:
aaakknu wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Maybe. I can't tell just from hearing it. :hmm:

Should I post a video?

It might help.

I don't feel comfortable posting a video publicly, though.
vijayjohn wrote:
I am curious what kind of rhotic I pronounce. I am not able to do any alveolar rhotics (whether tap, trill or approximant). I am trying to learn, but fail. From what I see in the mirror, I do it with the back of the tongue, not the tip.

I suspect it could be doubly articulated at both the alveolar ridge and the uvula.

The tip of my tongue is relaxed and does nothing, as far as I can see.
I actually pronounce two different types of rhotics:
1. I replace [ɾ] or [r] with a uvular flap, I think.
2. I replace [r] or [r:] (in Spanish and Finnish) with a sound that I now suspect to be a palatal trill (the one that I posted a sound recording for). Or maybe it's a uvular trill (at least sometimes; I don't think I am very consistent. I need to observe it in connected speech, rather than isolated sounds. Then I could be more certain).
If I were more knowledgeable about phonetics, it would be easier to determine.
(By the way, I am now learning to pronounce proper alveolar rhotics).

Edit:
Do you think it's a trill, though? Or something else (flap, approximant, fricative)? I think it is sonorant, but I might be mistaken. Phonetics is my weakness. Especially when it comes to the practical, rather than theoretical, side.
I've always tried to avoid learning languages that are too complex on the phonetic level.
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Re: What type of rhotic is this?

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-10-08, 20:58

I just listened to it again, and it does still sound like a trill to me.

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Re: What type of rhotic is this?

Postby Vlürch » 2021-12-18, 3:00

In that recording, I think it varies and kinda bounces between velar and post-velar/pre-uvular? Even though velar trills are officially considered impossible, you can find discussions of people saying they can pronounce it, and personally I also think I can if I try hard, but it's not going to come out consistently and either the point of articulation or trilledness gets really easily messed up.

But if velar trills really are physically impossible without a shadow of a doubt for "normal people", maybe all the people who think they can pronounce them are either delusional or have physically deformed mouths. Dunno. I know I have a small-ish tongue, at least, but I don't think it's abnormally small. No idea about your tongue, of course, but maybe tongue size is a factor on the pronunciation of trills. In any case, it might just be pre-uvular [ʀ̟] or velarised uvular [ʀˠ]?


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