Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

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linguoboy
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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby linguoboy » 2020-06-08, 15:33

(ca) ganyota grimace
(es) labriego farmhand
(fr) zoreille designation for someone from metropolitan France in overseas departments (in contrast to locals of European descent whose presence goes back several generations, such as the Caldoches in New Caledonia or the Petits and Gros Blancs of Réunion)
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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby Brzeczyszczykiewicz » 2020-06-11, 21:58

ʻōlaʻi - earthquake
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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby Brzeczyszczykiewicz » 2020-06-14, 20:10

hemelvuur - an alternative to the more usual bliksem ("lightning"), but somewhat more elegant, more poetic, if you will, literally translated as "sky fire" (or "heavenly fire" for yet more poetry, lads) 8-)
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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby Brzeczyszczykiewicz » 2020-06-15, 0:41

kīkeʻekeʻe - zigzag
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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby Gormur » 2020-06-16, 14:58

(sv) polis Obviously I know this word but I didn't know it was masculine. In Norwegian and Danish it's neuter, politi. Lögregla in Icelandic and løgregla in Faroese are feminine

This is funny to me though there's got to be an explanation :lol:
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby linguoboy » 2020-06-16, 15:10

(es) mofletudo chubby-cheeked
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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby Brzeczyszczykiewicz » 2020-06-16, 17:05

linguoboy wrote:(es) mofletudo chubby-cheeked


Interesting, that one must be used that way in Spain, I've certainly never heard it here in Mexico. Here, we would say cachetón. :mrgreen:
We do use the word mofle, but it pretty much always means "exhaust" (like a car's).
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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby linguoboy » 2020-06-16, 17:25

Brzeczyszczykiewicz wrote:
linguoboy wrote:(es) mofletudo chubby-cheeked

Interesting, that one must be used that way in Spain, I've certainly never heard it here in Mexico. Here, we would say cachetón. :mrgreen:
We do use the word mofle, but it pretty much always means "exhaust" (like a car's).

Peninsular Spanish would be escape. (More precisely, tubo de escape for the tailpipe itself and silenciador for the part corresponding to the "muffler" in English.)

I don't think mofle as such exists in Peninsular. The root of the word is mofletes, which means the cheeks themselves (in the same way as cachetes).
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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-06-16, 18:00

Brzeczyszczykiewicz wrote:
linguoboy wrote:(es) mofletudo chubby-cheeked


Interesting, that one must be used that way in Spain, I've certainly never heard it here in Mexico. Here, we would say cachetón. :mrgreen:

I never encountered mofletudo either, but I've heard both mofletes and cachetes. Cachetes are just cheeks, not necessarily chubby ones (and the same word can be used for buttocks too, which isn't true of mofletes).

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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby linguoboy » 2020-06-16, 18:29

Linguaphile wrote:I never encountered mofletudo either, but I've heard both mofletes and cachetes. Cachetes are just cheeks, not necessarily chubby ones (and the same word can be used for buttocks too, which isn't true of mofletes).

I suppose, since everyone has cheeks, if you describe someone as cachetón, the implication is that their cheeks are conspicuous in some way and being fuller than normal is one of the simplest ways to be conspicuous. So it's a quite natural extension. It's interesting that English cheeky can't be used literally, only metaphorically.

Incidentally, I came across mofletudo while reading Bolaño, a Chilean. He lived half his life in Catalonia, however, so it's possible he learned the word there. (Although moflete itself is thought to be borrowed from Occitan, there's no Catalan cognate in use; the equivalent would be galtaplè or galtut.)
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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-06-16, 18:49

linguoboy wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:I never encountered mofletudo either, but I've heard both mofletes and cachetes. Cachetes are just cheeks, not necessarily chubby ones (and the same word can be used for buttocks too, which isn't true of mofletes).

I suppose, since everyone has cheeks, if you describe someone as cachetón, the implication is that their cheeks are conspicuous in some way and being fuller than normal is one of the simplest ways to be conspicuous.

It's the -ón suffix that makes cachetón mean "big/chubby cheeks". One of the main uses of -ón is to indicate that something is larger than normal, hence cachetes "[normal] cheeks" and cachetón (‎cachete + ‎-ón) "[having] cheeks that are large". This is a common way to say that a baby (or any person) has chubby cheeks.
Similarly, a person with a big head (literally or figuratively) can be called ‎cabezón, for example (from cabeza + -ón).
A person who is bald is pelón and there it's used ironically (pelo + -ón would normally have meant something like "very hairy" or "having big hair" and presumably it did mean that at one time); its meaning has changed to the opposite, "having little or no hair; bald".
So with the word cachetes you have to change it to ‎cachetón to mean "chubby cheeks" since cachetes can be any size, while with the word mofletes you don't need to add the -ón suffix because mofletes on its own means "chubby cheeks" and never "non-chubby" ones.

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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby linguoboy » 2020-06-16, 19:06

Except pelón means "balding", not "hairy"!

The Honduran Spanish word cachetudo better exemplifies what I was getting at. It means "big-cheeked", not just "having cheeks", despite the lack of anything resembling an augmentative ending.
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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-06-16, 19:43

linguoboy wrote:Except pelón means "balding", not "hairy"!

Yes.... did you see this?
Linguaphile wrote:A person who is bald is pelón and there it's used ironically (pelo + -ón would normally have meant something like "very hairy" or "having big hair" and presumably it did mean that at one time); its meaning has changed to the opposite, "having little or no hair; bald".


linguoboy wrote:The Honduran Spanish word cachetudo better exemplifies what I was getting at. It means "big-cheeked", not just "having cheeks", despite the lack of anything resembling an augmentative ending.

Actually, -udo is an augmentative ending. Cf. peludo ("hairy"), panzudo ("paunchy"), cejudo ("having thick eyebrows"), etc. Here's how RAE defines it:
-udo, da
Del lat. -ūtus.
1. suf. En adjetivos derivados de sustantivos, indica abundancia, gran tamaño, o bien intensidad de lo significado por la raíz. Barbudo, carrilludo, cachazudo.

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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby linguoboy » 2020-06-16, 20:20

Linguaphile wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Except pelón means "balding", not "hairy"!

Yes.... did you see this?
Linguaphile wrote:A person who is bald is pelón and there it's used ironically (pelo + -ón would normally have meant something like "very hairy" or "having big hair" and presumably it did mean that at one time); its meaning has changed to the opposite, "having little or no hair; bald".

Irony is pragmatic; it doesn't make sense to say something is "used ironically" when the "ironic" meaning has been completely grammaticalised to the extent that any "non-ironic" meaning is nonexistent. There's nothing "augmentative" about adjectives like rabón, sesentón, or solterón, neither synchronically nor diachronically.

Linguaphile wrote:
linguoboy wrote:The Honduran Spanish word cachetudo better exemplifies what I was getting at. It means "big-cheeked", not just "having cheeks", despite the lack of anything resembling an augmentative ending.

Actually, -udo is an augmentative ending. Cf. peludo ("hairy"), panzudo ("paunchy"), cejudo ("having thick eyebrows"), etc. Here's how RAE defines it:
-udo, da
Del lat. -ūtus.
1. suf. En adjetivos derivados de sustantivos, indica abundancia, gran tamaño, o bien intensidad de lo significado por la raíz. Barbudo, carrilludo, cachazudo.

I think the RAE is overstating the case. Is there a contrast in size between the beards of someone who is barbudo and someone who is barbado? Is a person who's sombrerudo wearing a lot of hats, a very large hat, or just any hat at all? What about something's that ganchudo? All of these words could be translated with English equivalents in -ed (respectively, "bearded", "hatted", "hooked"), which doesn't have any augmentative significance and never did.
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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-06-16, 23:03

linguoboy wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Except pelón means "balding", not "hairy"!

Yes.... did you see this?
Linguaphile wrote:A person who is bald is pelón and there it's used ironically (pelo + -ón would normally have meant something like "very hairy" or "having big hair" and presumably it did mean that at one time); its meaning has changed to the opposite, "having little or no hair; bald".

Irony is pragmatic; it doesn't make sense to say something is "used ironically" when the "ironic" meaning has been completely grammaticalised to the extent that any "non-ironic" meaning is nonexistent.


The suffix -ón has several meanings:
1. suf. Forma sustantivos y adjetivos, derivados de sustantivos, adjetivos y verbos, de valor aumentativo, intensivo o expresivo. Barracón, inocentón.
2. suf. Forma también despectivos. Llorón, mirón.
3. suf. Forma sustantivos de acción o efecto, que suelen denotar algo repentino o violento. Apagón, chapuzón, resbalón.
4. suf. Forma adjetivos que indican privación de lo designado por la base. Pelón, rabón.
5. suf. Forma derivados numerales, que significan edad. Cuarentón, sesentón.

The first three seem similar (to me) because they are all intensifiers in some form whether of size, intensity, pejorativity, suddenness or violence. They're also the most common uses of the suffix; meanings 4 and 5 are used with a very small set of words.

As for meaning #4, "forma adjetivos que indican privación de lo designado por la base", I guess that's the question. There are very few words in Spanish that end with -ón with a diminutive meaning. I have always been under the impression that these words did start out as basically people saying the opposite of what was meant and it eventually became the primary meaning. Unfortunately, RAE is not detailed enough to say whether or not that is the case; it just acknowledges that in current usage there are some words which use -ón to mean "lacking whatever the suffix is attached to" and doesn't explain the etymology of how that came to be. But there really aren't that many words that use it that way. As examples it only gives the same two we've already mentioned: pelón and rabón. There's also ratón which is smaller than a rata rather than larger (and there's an interesting discussion about that one here).

Wiktionary describes this use this way: "for very few cases, -ón indicates small size of or a lack of something (such as an ironic augmentative)". This is what I was trying to say too. It's my belief that originally pelón and rabón were used in an ironic way (like calling a bald guy "Hairy" or a tailless cat "Tail") and at some point it just became the actual word. (RAE points out that pelón in Ecuador means "que tiene mucho pelo" even now.) But no, I don't know that for sure, and unfortunately RAE's etymological information isn't detailed enough to tell us whether or not that is the case. I'd have to do more research to be able to say for sure.

Wiktionary gives a few other "lack of something" uses of -ón, but tapón is actually a borrowing from French tapon (so its -ón isn't being used as a Spanish suffix here, it's just borrowed from French) and montón actually does refer to a large amount and not a small one (i.e., "a big mountain of paperwork"; no, it's not as big as an actual mountain, but when I use the word my intent is to emphasize that it's a large amount, not a little pile, but a big heap).

In any case, regardless of how words like pelón and rabón came to use the suffix -ón, we can say for sure that there are a few words that use -ón in a diminutive sense rather than an augmentative one, but not very many.

linguoboy wrote:There's nothing "augmentative" about adjectives like rabón, sesentón, or solterón, neither synchronically nor diachronically.

Rabón is like definition #4 discussed above.
A solterón is older than a person who is merely soltero, so it's a form of augmentative (not physically larger in this case, but older, having more years).
Sesentón is meaning #5 ("forma derivados numerales, que significan edad") and is the meaning the suffix takes when added to numbers. Personally I would have thought that the reason for this use is also usually augmentative and sometimes even pejorative, emphasizing the person's increasing number of years in either a positive or negative way, depending on intent. You can also say sexagenario and it sounds more neutral. With lower numbers it sounds really wrong (veintón, treintón) - it would sound like an insult. You can say veinteañero (person in their twenties) or as an adjective veintipocos (early twenties) or veintimuchos (late twenties) or veintitantos (twenties) etc. instead. Just like with solterón, the -ón suffix emphasizes the larger number of years.

Linguaphile wrote:
linguoboy wrote:The Honduran Spanish word cachetudo better exemplifies what I was getting at. It means "big-cheeked", not just "having cheeks", despite the lack of anything resembling an augmentative ending.

Actually, -udo is an augmentative ending. Cf. peludo ("hairy"), panzudo ("paunchy"), cejudo ("having thick eyebrows"), etc. Here's how RAE defines it:
-udo, da
Del lat. -ūtus.
1. suf. En adjetivos derivados de sustantivos, indica abundancia, gran tamaño, o bien intensidad de lo significado por la raíz. Barbudo, carrilludo, cachazudo.

linguoboy wrote:I think the RAE is overstating the case. Is there a contrast in size between the beards of someone who is barbudo and someone who is barbado? Is a person who's sombrerudo wearing a lot of hats, a very large hat, or just any hat at all? What about something's that ganchudo? All of these words could be translated with English equivalents in -ed (respectively, "bearded", "hatted", "hooked"), which doesn't have any augmentative significance and never did.

And I think you're being fairly stubborn about it... I agree with RAE's definition here. I'll give you ganchudo, but I do think that a person who is barbudo has a fairly large beard, not just a little tiny one. If I just want to say that a person has a small beard I'd say he's barbado (actually IRL I'd probably say tiene barba but that's beside the point); to be barbudo it would probably have to cover his whole chin and even better if it hangs down like Santa Claus (note that I could still refer to him as barbado "bearded" but with the larger beard I'd have the option of also choosing to call him barbudo (big-bearded) whereas barbudo wouldn't come up if it was small. I'd say the same of sombrerudo; it's a person wearing a large hat, or a stereotypical way to refer to a person who wears such a hat.

Back to RAE:

barbudo, da
1. adj. Que tiene mucha barba. Apl. a pers., u. t. c. s.
(+ other meanings that have to do with plant shoots and fish, not relevant here)


barbado, da
1. adj. Que tiene barbas. Apl. a pers., u. t. c. s.
(+ other meanings that have to do with plant shoots and fish, not relevant here)


sombrerudo, da
1. adj. Hond. y Méx. campesino (‖ que vive y trabaja en el campo). U. t. c. s.
2. adj. Méx. Que lleva sombrero grande. U. t. c. s.

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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby Brzeczyszczykiewicz » 2020-06-17, 3:55

Interestingly enough, I've also heard the -udo suffix employed in a way that doesn't have to do with augmentation (or not exclusively).

Two examples of what you might hear here in Mexico may be of help:

"Hoy que fui al tianguis vi a tu amiga discutiendo con la señora de los jugos, la cejuda esa."

"Hoy que fui al tianguis vi a tu amiga discutiendo con la señora de los jugos, la chancluda esa."

In the first sentence cejuda is definitely being used to imply that the lady who sells juices has bushier-than-average eyebrows, but it also has pejorative overtones.
On the other hand, the chancluda from the second example is also being used pejoratively, but it doesn't necessarily mean that that lady is wearing particularly large flip-flops (we use to call those "chanclas" here in Mexico).
I would even say that, in at least most cases, the size of said flip-flops would hardly be in the speaker's mind at the time of saying such a thing; it's far likelier than they are referring to the fact that that lady wears flip-flops a lot of the time, or just that she does but, again, with pejorative overtones.

And even the -ón suffix has its quirks from time to time (or from Spanish-speaking region to Spanish-speaking region). Once more, I'm talking about Mexico here. If someone told me something like:

"El otro día vi en la parada del pesero a un tipo barbón que iba con una chava de ojos grises."

unless they added anything that might make me think otherwise, I wouldn't necessarily picture that guy from the bus stop as having a Santa beard, perhaps not such a teeny-tiny one, either, but just your average only-a-few-days-long beard. :mrgreen:

A very interesting and complex topic, to be sure, guys! 8-)
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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby Yasna » 2020-06-17, 20:17

(nds) quaad evil
(nds) Vos fox
(nds) Deif thief
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby Brzeczyszczykiewicz » 2020-06-17, 22:45

Yasna wrote:(nds) quaad evil
(nds) Vos fox
(nds) Deif thief


It's always a pleasure to learn some more Low German words! :partyhat:

hofrennydd - helicopter
僵尸 / 殭屍 (jiāngshī) - Chinese vampire; zombie
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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby Brzeczyszczykiewicz » 2020-06-17, 23:49

tastblindheid / stereoagnosie - Onvermogen om door de tastzin voorwerpen te herkennen / Inability to recognize objects by the sense of touch
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Re: Last word in a foreign language that you learnt 2

Postby Brzeczyszczykiewicz » 2020-06-22, 5:10

kibwengo - elf
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