True false friends 2

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linguoboy
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Re: True false friends 2

Postby linguoboy » 2020-01-30, 18:20

Ciarán12 wrote:We don't, to my knowledge, have separate terms for the various bundles of countires that entered the EU together

I've seen "founding members" for Benelux, Germany, Italy, and France and "A8" or "EU8" for the former Eastern Bloc countries that joined in 2004.

Ciarán12 wrote:Do the differences between Gaelic and Anglo-Saxon culture seem small to you?

I'm not sure what exactly is included in "Gaelic culture". IME, it's often used to refer specifically to those elements of modern Irish culture which aren't considered "Anglo-Saxon" (e.g. Gaelic football, Celtic Christianity, traditional Irish music). But, yes, the differences in culture between Ireland in the UK seem minor indeed when compared to pretty much any other country in Europe, let alone the rest of the world.
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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Ciarán12 » 2020-01-30, 18:30

linguoboy wrote:I've seen "founding members" for Benelux, Germany, Italy, and France and "A8" or "EU8" for the former Eastern Bloc countries that joined in 2004.


'Founding members' is hardly a term, it's literally used for any group of entities that start a group together...
I can imagine the "EU8" term having been used as a term at the time of their entry, when such a distinction was noteworthy. Maybe now in the strict sense of analysing the impact it's had on their economies and societies, but beyond that I couldn't imagine anyone using the term, and I've persoanlly never even heard it before.

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:Do the differences between Gaelic and Anglo-Saxon culture seem small to you?

I'm not sure what exactly is included in "Gaelic culture". IME, it's often used to refer specifically to those elements of modern Irish culture which aren't considered "Anglo-Saxon" (e.g. Gaelic football, Celtic Christianity, traditional Irish music). But, yes, the differences in culture between Ireland in the UK seem minor indeed when compared to pretty much any other country in Europe, let alone the rest of the world.


Seafóid.

I'm done with this shit...

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Re: True false friends 2

Postby linguoboy » 2020-01-30, 18:58

Ciarán12 wrote:Seafóid.

Ní lia duine ná tuairim.

I just got back from a part of the world where folks regularly go surfing before going to work, don't own any outerwear heavier than a windbreaker, and can buy sushi made with Spam in every drugstore. Somehow whether or not your traditional breakfast includes farls doesn't seem like such a huge distinction by comparison.

Do you seriously think English people are more culturally similar to, say, Spaniards than to Irish people? This is not a value judgment or a whitewashing of history, it's just a statement of how things currently are. Why does that upset you?
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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Ciarán12 » 2020-01-30, 19:18

linguoboy wrote:I just got back from a part of the world where folks regularly go surfing before going to work, don't own any outerwear heavier than a windbreaker, and can buy sushi made with Spam in every drugstore. Somehow whether or not your traditional breakfast includes farls doesn't seem like such a huge distinction by comparison.


So, you're using our weather and the ridiculous agrument of "Irish/English/Scottish breakfast" as your argument for our cutural unity? Yeah, 'cause those are the deep-seeded ancestral cultural foundations upon which our ethnic identity is based...

linguoboy wrote:Do you seriously think English people are more culturally similar to, say, Spaniards than to Irish people?


I'm suggesting all three are equally different.

linguoboy wrote:This is not a value judgment or a whitewashing of history, it's just a statement of how things currently are. Why does that upset you?


What this is is you asserting that our colonially enforced identities are who we really are, something I doubt you'd be so quick to do with other indigenous groups. Why aren't you so against Native American communities who assert their distinctiveness from Anglo-Saxon American culture? I don't see you shitting on them and their identity. You're just as ignorant as the rest, you have no idea what it's like to have the very people who took your identity from you do such a good job of annihilating your culture that the world can no longer tell you apart from them. Given the extent to which you've studied the langauge, I can only infer from this that you're either trolling or you blinded by...I dunno, bigotry? Maybe white, English-Speaking Europeans are fair game or something? Either way, fuck you.

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Re: True false friends 2

Postby linguoboy » 2020-01-30, 20:12

Ciarán12 wrote:So, you're using our weather and the ridiculous agrument of "Irish/English/Scottish breakfast" as your argument for our cutural unity? Yeah, 'cause those are the deep-seeded ancestral cultural foundations upon which our ethnic identity is based...

I was being a bit facetious, but the fact is that climate does have a huge influence on the culture of a place and foodways are an important element in any culture.

Ciarán12 wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Do you seriously think English people are more culturally similar to, say, Spaniards than to Irish people?

I'm suggesting all three are equally different.

There's a case to be made there, but I don't see you making it. All I see is you asserting it as an article of faith and abusing anyone who disagrees.

Ciarán12 wrote:
linguoboy wrote:This is not a value judgment or a whitewashing of history, it's just a statement of how things currently are. Why does that upset you?

What this is is you asserting that our colonially enforced identities are who we really are, something I doubt you'd be so quick to do with other indigenous groups.

I'm a materialist in these matters. "Who we really are" is a product of how we live. There is no mystic core of "true Irishness" or "true Englishness" apart the ordinary lifeways of Irish and English people. And from where I sit, those lifeways are extremely similar.

Ciarán12 wrote:Why aren't you so against Native American communities who assert their distinctiveness from Anglo-Saxon American culture? I don't see you shitting on them and their identity.

I don't see me "shitting on" the Irish, to be frank. Dá mba a leithéid de dhrochmheas agam ar an gclann Gael, d'fhoghlaimeoinn bhur dteanga?

I never said the Irish were indistinguishable from anyone else, I just said that the differences between them and citizens of the UK are minor enough in light of the internal diversity of Europe that having a term which groups the constituent nations of the UK and them together doesn't seem outrageous.

After all, you freely make use of the term "Native American communities" and there is far more cultural diversity among Native American nations than there is in all of Europe, let along just the northwestern corner of it.
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Re: True false friends 2

Postby OldBoring » 2020-01-31, 15:03

Did Ciaran delete his account because he got offended by this thread?

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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Luís » 2020-02-01, 15:55

That escalated quickly... :para:
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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-02-01, 16:59

Luís wrote:That escalated quickly... :para:

No kidding. :doggy: Especially for having occurred in the True False Friends thread, where the whole point is that words in one language donät necessarily have the same meanings or connotations that they have in another.

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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Naava » 2020-02-01, 19:00

Linguaphile wrote:
Luís wrote:That escalated quickly... :para:

No kidding. :doggy:

I was surprised, too. I was about to comment that I could understand how Ciarán felt because I get frustrated/annoyed/tired when I see people calling Finland 'a Scandinavian country' but... I guess it's too late now...? :shock:
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Re: True false friends 2

Postby md0 » 2020-02-01, 20:48

For what is worth, in Greek the calque of Anglo-Saxon means "white Anglosphere" (including the settler colonies in the New World - especially USA), unless it is used in a narrow historical context.
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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-02-01, 21:17

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:
Luís wrote:That escalated quickly... :para:

No kidding. :doggy:

I was surprised, too. I was about to comment that I could understand how Ciarán felt because I get frustrated/annoyed/tired when I see people calling Finland 'a Scandinavian country' but... I guess it's too late now...? :shock:

Yeah, I get it too. As I said in my post earlier, I don't think it was meant that way in the article that was posted, or at least it wouldn't have been if it had been used like that in Spanish. I'm confident they were talking about English-language press, referring to the language used (which was English), not to any geographic or cultural commentary. How it got from that to a debate about how cultures are or aren't different from each other and what people eat for breakfast, I'm really not even sure. It kinda went downhill fast.

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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Vlürch » 2020-02-02, 23:28

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:
Luís wrote:That escalated quickly... :para:

No kidding. :doggy:

I was surprised, too. I was about to comment that I could understand how Ciarán felt because I get frustrated/annoyed/tired when I see people calling Finland 'a Scandinavian country' but... I guess it's too late now...? :shock:

Yeah... :doggy:

Also, at one point in the Brexit wake (or whatever) on Yle, the Irish were seemingly included in "Brits"; I don't remember the exact wording or even the context, though, and I realised after maybe five seconds of "wait what" that it was probably a reference to Northern Ireland being a part of the UK. But still, I wouldn't expect most Finns to know that Ireland isn't part of the UK...

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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Johanna » 2020-02-03, 1:16

To be fair, I just had a discussion with people from Finland about how Swedes really dislike how the terms rikssvenska and rikssvenskar are used in Finland-Swedish.

In Sweden, the former is analogous to högsvenska, except it also have a history of oppression; there was an entire program whose sole purpose was to replace all the minority languages, dialects and accents with only the approved version of the standard language, called rikssvenska. As a grandchild of a Meänkieli speaker, and speaker of a genuine dialect myself, that is like a slap to the face, but I am of course told that "things are just different in Finland."

Yeah, the kind of oppression a lot of Finnish people are still going on about? Swedes not from the elite have had to live with and even harsher version for another 170 years or so. And we still feel the effects of it, even if the program is defunct, because I can't use my own mother tongue as my everyday language without being seen as the village idiot!

The other term, rikssvenskar, doesn't really exist here, though it does sound derived from the linguistic stuff.

But honestly, how hard could it be to call the Swedish of Sweden sverigesvenska, which, is completely analogous to finlandssvenska, the Finnish of Finland. And the people speaking the language are of course sverigesvenskar on this side of the Baltic Sea, and finlandssvenskar on the other. That way, it doesn't belong to either one country, or gets tangled up in nasty old policies, which should make everyone happy :)
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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Synalepha » 2020-02-16, 14:31

(pt) gavião - hawk
(it) gabbiano - seagull
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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-02-17, 2:44

(et) kohtu court, duty
(fi) kohtu womb, uterus
(olo) kohtu place, location

(vot) halva cheap
(izh) halva bad
(et) halb bad
(fi) halpa cheap

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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Lutrinae » 2020-02-17, 11:59

Linguaphile wrote:I don't think they do use it that way ("of or having to do with the United Kingdom and Ireland"). I think it's used to refer to any English-speaking places or situations, whether they are from the UK, Ireland, the US, Canada, Australia, etc. In this case, the press which reported on the interviews happened to be from Wales. (The interviewees from were the UK and Ireland, but I don't even think the adjective "anglo-saxonne" referred to their origins, just to the press.)


I've heard it usually to refer to UK, Ireland, Australia, but never for Canada or USA, so I assumed that it was the regular term for countries from the Commonwealth and the UK/Ireland islands.

However I've done some research and visibly the French use for that word completely derived from the original/historical one from English.
I even checked dictionaries, and the definition I found was "related to Britannic civilizations" and "Person with English language and culture". Which leave me very confused because language and culture don't have to be related. Like Spanish and Chileans share the Spanish language but there are a lot of cultural differences.

They seem to explain here how the use of that term derived, but i don't have access to the full article

https://www.courrierinternational.com/article/le-terme-anglo-saxons-miroir-des-peurs-francaises
Thanks for any correction :)

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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Lutrinae » 2020-02-17, 12:00

Linguaphile wrote:(vot) halva cheap
(izh) halva bad
(et) halb bad
(fi) halpa cheap


What about the dessert? :)
Thanks for any correction :)

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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-02-17, 15:35

Lutrinae wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:(vot) halva cheap
(izh) halva bad
(et) halb bad
(fi) halpa cheap


What about the dessert? :)

I didn't think of it because my list was made of words that are etymologically related and that can easily cause confusion, but you're welcome to add to my list!
:mrgreen:

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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Lutrinae » 2020-02-17, 18:36

Linguaphile wrote:
Lutrinae wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:(vot) halva cheap
(izh) halva bad
(et) halb bad
(fi) halpa cheap


What about the dessert? :)

I didn't think of it because my list was made of words that are etymologically related and that can easily cause confusion, but you're welcome to add to my list!
:mrgreen:


Aw sorry I didn't pay attention to that! (Probably because I don't know those languages :oops: )
Thanks for any correction :)

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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-02-20, 22:19

(fi) sammua to die down; to shut off; to conk out; to pass out from drinking (1s sammun: I conk out, etc.)
(et) sammuda to step, to walk, to tread (1s sammun: I walk, etc.)


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