True false friends 2

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True false friends 2

Postby Ashucky » 2020-01-17, 21:29

Continuation of the True false friends thread, which can now be found in the Forum Archives. If you want to continue a conversation or a discussion from the old thread, post a quote and/or a link to the relevant post here.

To quote the original OP:
linguoboy wrote:[...] So here's a thread for actual false friends, i.e. words from different languages that seem like they should have the same meaning by don't--preferably illustrated with genuine examples of their use.

I'll start us off with a Spanish/Catalan example. The word is lloro. In Spanish, this is a verbal noun derived from llorar "to cry", but in Catalan it means "parrot". So when I was reading a short story by García Márquez and came across the line:

"...y hasta sus risas sonaban a lloros."

I read this as "and even his laughs sounded like parrots" instead of "and even his laughs sounded like weeping".
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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Ciarán12 » 2020-01-20, 19:31

Linguaphile wrote:A miúdo....


Bom, na medida em que (pt-BR) = (pt-PT), (pt-BR)/(pt-PT) = (gl).

Synalepha

Re: True false friends 2

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-23, 9:32

(lld) pra - at, with
(pt-BR) pra - for, through

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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Dormouse559 » 2020-01-29, 20:08

(fr) anglo-saxon adj - of or having to do with the United Kingdom and Ireland

I'm not sure how widespread this usage is, but I saw it in an article just now and was rather surprised. For me, "Anglo-Saxon" can be a narrow term based on heritage: "of English ethnic descent"; I'd tend to exclude Irish, Scottish and Welsh descent. "Anglo-Saxon" can also be a broad term for an intersection of language, history and race: "Western/white Anglophone" (French also has this sense). But I haven't seen it used as a collective term for the UK and Ireland before.

This is all ignoring the historical meaning of the terms — the Germanic people who settled in England — which both languages have.

Le Figaro wrote:Pour la presse anglo-saxonne, la France est la favorite du tournoi

WalesOnline a interrogé 26 journalistes anglais, gallois, écossais et irlandais, tous spécialisés dans le rugby.


For the Anglo-Saxon press, France is the favorite to win the [Six Nations] championship

WalesOnline interviewed 26 English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish journalists, all specializing in rugby.
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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Ciarán12 » 2020-01-29, 20:53

Dormouse559 wrote:(fr) anglo-saxon adj - of or having to do with the United Kingdom and Ireland


Not gonna lie, if I met someone using this in that way I would be fucking livid, regardless of what language they were supposedly using it in. I don't accept this as a false friend, but as ignorace to the point of offence.

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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Dormouse559 » 2020-01-29, 21:10

Ciarán12 wrote:Not gonna lie, if I met someone using this in that way I would be fucking livid, regardless of what language they were supposedly using it in. I don't accept this as a false friend, but as ignorace to the point of offence.

Yeah, I get that. :? It could be an error on the headline writer's part. I just can't think of a practical way to check other than a native speaker coming along and helping us out. Est-ce un bon usage ?
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Re: True false friends 2

Postby linguoboy » 2020-01-29, 22:05

(en) pee-pee
(haw) pipi (< (en) beef)
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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Car » 2020-01-29, 23:13

Dormouse559 wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:Not gonna lie, if I met someone using this in that way I would be fucking livid, regardless of what language they were supposedly using it in. I don't accept this as a false friend, but as ignorace to the point of offence.

Yeah, I get that. :? It could be an error on the headline writer's part. I just can't think of a practical way to check other than a native speaker coming along and helping us out. Est-ce un bon usage ?

IME in rugby French at least, it does mean Western/white Anglophone, they reduce it to the UK and Ireland here because those are the only English-speaking countries taking part in the Six Nations (yeah, odd wording considering it's them as the individual Home Nations plus France and Italy, I know). French rugby fans love to brag how they're the best non-Anglo-Saxon rugby country or the only big one. Not sure if the average Afrikaner rugby fan in South Africa is too happy about that, either.
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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Ciarán12 » 2020-01-29, 23:33

Car wrote:IME in rugby French at least, it does mean Western/white Anglophone, they reduce it to the UK and Ireland here because those are the only English-speaking countries taking part in the Six Nations


This is what I like to call "tudo-farinha-do-mesmo-saquismo".

Car wrote:Home Nations


I have always hated this phrase. Please, don't use it if you can avoid it.

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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-01-30, 2:12

Dormouse559 wrote:(fr) anglo-saxon adj - of or having to do with the United Kingdom and Ireland

I'm not sure how widespread this usage is, but I saw it in an article just now and was rather surprised. For me, "Anglo-Saxon" can be a narrow term based on heritage: "of English ethnic descent"; I'd tend to exclude Irish, Scottish and Welsh descent. "Anglo-Saxon" can also be a broad term for an intersection of language, history and race: "Western/white Anglophone" (French also has this sense). But I haven't seen it used as a collective term for the UK and Ireland before.

This is all ignoring the historical meaning of the terms — the Germanic people who settled in England — which both languages have.

Le Figaro wrote:Pour la presse anglo-saxonne, la France est la favorite du tournoi

WalesOnline a interrogé 26 journalistes anglais, gallois, écossais et irlandais, tous spécialisés dans le rugby.


For the Anglo-Saxon press, France is the favorite to win the [Six Nations] championship

WalesOnline interviewed 26 English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish journalists, all specializing in rugby.


Ciarán12 wrote:
Dormouse559 wrote:(fr) anglo-saxon adj - of or having to do with the United Kingdom and Ireland


Not gonna lie, if I met someone using this in that way I would be fucking livid, regardless of what language they were supposedly using it in. I don't accept this as a false friend, but as ignorace to the point of offence.



I don't think they do use it that way ("of or having to do with the United Kingdom and Ireland"). I think it's used to refer to any English-speaking places or situations, whether they are from the UK, Ireland, the US, Canada, Australia, etc. In this case, the press which reported on the interviews happened to be from Wales. (The interviewees from were the UK and Ireland, but I don't even think the adjective "anglo-saxonne" referred to their origins, just to the press.)
In Spanish, anglosajón can be used to mean "English-language" or "English-speaking" (as adjectives). Looking at your examples, I'm pretty confident that's what was meant here too. They used the word specifically to refer to the press (la presse anglo-saxonne), not actually the people who were interviewed. I'd translate it as "For the English-language press, France is the favorite to win the championship."
I don't know how common that is in French, but it's definitely used that way in Spanish, and it wouldn't surprise me a bit to see a Spanish version of this article say la prensa anglosajona here. In fact, in Spanish saying anglosajona clarifies that they are talking about the language used by the press rather than the nationality or geographic location of its offices or journalists (or interviewees). In Spanish they couldn't say la prensa inglesa for "the English-language press" here because it would give the impression that they were talking about press from England, and the press in question is an English-language one from Wales (not from England), so anglosajona is more precise and correct. (It's not the only way to say "English-speaking" or "English-language" in Spanish, but it's one of the ways.)
So the way I understand it, they are just saying that the site WalesOnline (maybe also the referenced journalists' publications) are part of the "English-language press" (as opposed to, say, the French-language press), not commenting on the nationality or origin of the interviewees. I don't know how common it is in French (I would have expected it to say anglophone myself, but the way I understand it, they're using anglo-saxon here with the same meaning as anglophone). I found other examples of this, including this book in French called "Lire la presse anglo-saxonne", about the language used by "la presse anglo-saxonne"; the book with that title includes examples from both English and American press, so in other words there they are clearly using the phrase "la presse anglo-saxonne" to refer to the English language (regardless of national origin) and not to English nationality or to England (nor to "United Kingdom and Ireland").

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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Luís » 2020-01-30, 10:00

Linguaphile wrote:I don't think they do use it that way ("of or having to do with the United Kingdom and Ireland"). I think it's used to refer to any English-speaking places or situations, whether they are from the UK, Ireland, the US, Canada, Australia, etc


That's more or less how we use it in Portuguese as well*. Actually, I'd say it's more of a cultural thing. So in that sense it's different from anglophone. Australia and the US would be considered anglo-saxon countries, but not India or South Africa. There are certain things in common, apart from the language (the usage of common law instead of civil law, for instance). So sometimes it's useful to make distinctions between the (Continental) European way and the Anglo-Saxon (British-influenced) way

* Yeah, probably a French influence :P
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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Ciarán12 » 2020-01-30, 11:02

Luís wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:I don't think they do use it that way ("of or having to do with the United Kingdom and Ireland"). I think it's used to refer to any English-speaking places or situations, whether they are from the UK, Ireland, the US, Canada, Australia, etc


That's more or less how we use it in Portuguese as well*. Actually, I'd say it's more of a cultural thing. So in that sense it's different from anglophone. Australia and the US would be considered anglo-saxon countries, but not India or South Africa. There are certain things in common, apart from the language (the usage of common law instead of civil law, for instance). So sometimes it's useful to make distinctions between the (Continental) European way and the Anglo-Saxon (British-influenced) way

* Yeah, probably a French influence :P


But it's this conflation of cultural identity with language that's the problem (and the fact that you don't recognise the other, indigenous language, which is as non-anglo-saxon as yours is) - Ireland is not "Anglo-Saxon" ethnically or culturally, we're just as much a different place from England as you guys are as far as we're concerned and the implication that we are somehow culturally "British" or "Anglo-Saxon" is exactly the thing that causes the offence. You need to get that we are not any more like them than you are*.

*I'll accept that we share a common language due to imperial rule, but it's exactly that imperial rule that is the reason we most detest being lumped in with them. Seriously, stop thinking of us as somehow being part of the same culture as them...

And before anyone says "well if the Irish actually spoke Irish..." - yeah, I know. I agree, but still. Also, not actually sure that would solve the problem, because a lot of people lump the Finns in with the Germanic-Speaking Nordics in a way that, were I Finnish, I would be furious, and they do speak their language...

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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Car » 2020-01-30, 13:11

Ciarán12 wrote:
Car wrote:Home Nations


I have always hated this phrase. Please, don't use it if you can avoid it.

Why not? What should I call them instead?
Please correct my mistakes!

Ciarán12

Re: True false friends 2

Postby Ciarán12 » 2020-01-30, 13:35

Car wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:
Car wrote:Home Nations


I have always hated this phrase. Please, don't use it if you can avoid it.

Why not? What should I call them instead?


Why would they have a name? What have they got in common that necessitates them being grouped together at all?
What do you call Germany, Italy, Poland and Hungary?

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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Luís » 2020-01-30, 14:20

Ciarán12 wrote:Seriously, stop thinking of us as somehow being part of the same culture as them...


Don't worry, I'm pretty sure nobody is actually thinking of Ireland when they use this expression :P
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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Ciarán12 » 2020-01-30, 14:25

Luís wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:Seriously, stop thinking of us as somehow being part of the same culture as them...


Don't worry, I'm pretty sure nobody is actually thinking of Ireland when they use this expression :P


Espero que não. Melhor eles esquecem de nós por completo do que ver-nos como ingleses.

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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Car » 2020-01-30, 17:15

Ciarán12 wrote:
Car wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:
Car wrote:Home Nations


I have always hated this phrase. Please, don't use it if you can avoid it.

Why not? What should I call them instead?


Why would they have a name? What have they got in common that necessitates them being grouped together at all?
What do you call Germany, Italy, Poland and Hungary?

They were the original participants. Could you think of any context where it might make sense to group those four together? Because people clearly feel the need to do it for the UK and Ireland.
Please correct my mistakes!

Ciarán12

Re: True false friends 2

Postby Ciarán12 » 2020-01-30, 17:30

Car wrote:They were the original participants.


I really dont think that's such a compelling reason to have a whole term just for them. You can always just say "the original 4 nations" if you needed to specifically refer to them.

Car wrote:Could think of any context where it might make sense to group those four together?


Not enough to warrant a term. We don't always have concrete, shorthand terms for specific sets of nations, only when we need to refer to them as a unit frequently, I'd say.

Car wrote:Because people clearly feel the need to do it for the UK and Ireland.


This term is almost never used inside Ireland, from my experience. We seem to get along just fine without having a term for it.
People don't 'feel the need' to have a term for this, they have one because they think they are all the same thing somehow, which is ignorant and offensive, hence my objection to the term.

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Re: True false friends 2

Postby linguoboy » 2020-01-30, 17:44

Honestly, this feels like a classic case of the narcissism of small differences. I'd be more bothered by the colonialist overtones of "home" (cf. "Home Counties") than about having a dedicated term just for sports league groupings. There are dozens if not hundreds of them and IME people don't read too much into them. (At least, I don't see folks losing their shit about, say, a team from Kentucky being included in the "Midwest League", but maybe they do? I dunno.)
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Re: True false friends 2

Postby Ciarán12 » 2020-01-30, 17:56

linguoboy wrote:Honestly, this feels like a classic case of the narcissism of small differences. I'd be more bothered by the colonialist overtones of "home" (cf. "Home Counties") than about having a dedicated term just for sports league groupings. There are dozens if not hundreds of them and IME people don't read too much into them. (At least, I don't see folks losing their shit about, say, a team from Kentucky being included in the "Midwest League", but maybe they do? I dunno.)


I AM bothered by the colonial overtones of the term "home". Moreover, I'm bothered by the colonial overtones of having any kind of term that links Ireland and the UK for no other apparent reason than that people can't differenciate them (you know, because of the excellent job the colonial power did of erasing the identity of the colonised...).
We don't, to my knowledge, have separate terms for the various bundles of countries that entered the EU together, so why would we have terms for the sets of countries that entered into participation in Rugby together? As far as I'm aware, there is no league or division within the sport that includes only the "Home Countries" (as would presumably be the case for your Midwest League example), so I don't think the analogy fits here.

linguoboy wrote:Honestly, this feels like a classic case of the narcissism of small differences.


Do the differences between Gaelic and Anglo-Saxon culture seem small to you?


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