[Sort of a log] All Things Communication (previously titled: the language called communication)

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Re: The language called communication: reading between the lines, avoiding misunderstandings, patterns of behavior

Postby langmon » 2018-11-06, 8:58

Some news:

Things already are starting to become more clear to me once again.

Not everything I am mentioning in this log is something that I haven't heard of up to now.
On the contrary. There is a number of things that I was aware of before, too, but to a lesser degree.
This is similar to being exposed to anything related to any other language again and again. This is strengthening the pathways. Dots waiting to be connected. Knots waiting to be untangled.

And if I was asked whether I still consider myself half of a geek, I'd even say: "now it is less than half of one, although it isn't zero, either".
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Re: The language called communication: reading between the lines, avoiding misunderstandings, patterns of behavior

Postby voron » 2018-11-06, 9:55

Off Topic
Why is this in the TAC forum? Can the mods please move this thread to the General Language forum?

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Re: The language called communication: reading between the lines, avoiding misunderstandings, patterns of behavior

Postby langmon » 2018-11-06, 10:48

voron wrote:
Off Topic
Why is this in the TAC forum? Can the mods please move this thread to the General Language forum?


Well... when I started this thread, I myself was thinking about where to exactly put it.
Both this subforum and the "General Language" forum came to my mind.
After pondering upon it, I personally came to the conclusion that I also mentioned in the first post :wink::

(Now why did I choose this subforum and not another one?
Because I am currently learning more about a language that I already know to some extent, but there still is room for improvement. And that one simply is called communication. Not kidding.)


And as for how it feels to myself at least, I'd say that I really am learning more about communication in the very same way I am learning other languages like Spanish or French. Immersion and exposure. Practice. Learning new things and revising others through spaced repetition (although without flashcards, but I also don't use them for Spanish, French and other languages).

[EDIT: I forgot to mention that a lot of this log's topic also is related to non-verbal actions, i.e. anything expressed without spoken words even. From that perspective, I could compare learning more about communication to learning how to use ISL/International Sign Language.]
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Re: The language called communication: reading between the lines, avoiding misunderstandings, patterns of behavior

Postby langmon » 2018-11-06, 11:32

This could become a log with much more silent than responding readers. :) And I do recognize that it differs from many others in several aspects. Still, there is a lowest common denominator between it and everything else that is labelled as "language", as explained in the previous post. :)

If there is anything one of the silent readers would like to be mentioned, they could also tell me the topic they want to read more about through a PM, even if it doesn't say more than "topic suggestion for your log: ...".
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Re: The language called communication: reading between the lines, avoiding misunderstandings, patterns of behavior

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-06, 17:39

admin

After reading through some of this thread, including voron's post and SGP's reply, I'm moving this post to the General Language Forum.
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Re: The language called communication: reading between the lines, avoiding misunderstandings, patterns of behavior

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-06, 17:53

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:(Now why did I choose this subforum and not another one?
Because I am currently learning more about a language that I already know to some extent, but there still is room for improvement. And that one simply is called communication. Not kidding.)


And as for how it feels to myself at least, I'd say that I really am learning more about communication in the very same way I am learning other languages like Spanish or French. Immersion and exposure. Practice. Learning new things and revising others through spaced repetition (although without flashcards, but I also don't use them for Spanish, French and other languages).

SGP, I want to respond to this. While I understand where you're coming from, the purpose of this thread doesn't quite fit in the TAC forum. The TAC forum is meant specifically for anyone who wishes to create a TAC. TAC's were initially an actual competition, but nowadays they are personal blogs where one can share about the various languages they are studying, as well as interact with other users regarding those languages.

However, because we also have language specific forums, any TAC/blog thread dedicated to a single language fits better into the associated language specific forum. This allows us to group all threads dedicated to a specific language together, and use the TAC forum for those studying multiple languages at once who wish to use one thread for all their studies. This same logic also applies to the General Language Forum and this particular thread of yours on communication. It (this thread) better fits in the General Language Forum.
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Re: The language called communication: reading between the lines, avoiding misunderstandings, patterns of behavior

Postby langmon » 2018-11-06, 18:16

(This post of mine is intended to be a reply to what dEhiN just wrote, there is nothing more to it.)

dEhiN wrote:SGP, I want to respond to this. While I understand where you're coming from, the purpose of this thread doesn't quite fit in the TAC forum. The TAC forum is meant specifically for anyone who wishes to create a TAC. TAC's were initially an actual competition, but nowadays they are personal blogs where one can share about the various languages they are studying, as well as interact with other users regarding those languages.


So there are a bit more details than I was aware of.
Because I remember that in the beginning, I didn't even know where my (first and multi-language) log could be put. Then you told me about the TAC subforum and that since its beginning, there has been a bit of a shift (not being used for real TACs only any more).

But I somehow didn't realize that for any specific language single-language log, people would use a subforum dedicated to that very language. I also wasn't aware of the fact that there, too, personal logs are possible.

Now the thread has been moved to the General Languages Forum. So this also means to me that you, at least, don't fully disagree with myself calling communication a language :).

And I hope that even if it is there now, the others will still understand that it is at least sort of a language log, because of the logging that is going on there. The input of others is very welcome, but for the purpose of the thread, I still do need to retain its "personal log" character. For that reason, I changed its title a bit, it simply starts with "[Sort of a log]" now.

dEhiN wrote:However, because we also have language specific forums, any TAC/blog thread dedicated to a single language fits better into the associated language specific forum. This allows us to group all threads dedicated to a specific language together, and use the TAC forum for those studying multiple languages at once who wish to use one thread for all their studies. This same logic also applies to the General Language Forum and this particular thread of yours on communication. It (this thread) better fits in the General Language Forum.


And that "grouping the threads together" thing has something like a welcome side-effect to me. :) Because now, I suppose it is a lot easier for others to find both the Swahili, the Swahili and the Japanese log. [NoShout] HAPPY! :D By the way, did I already mention the Swahili log??? :D
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby langmon » 2018-11-06, 18:48

Pattern of behavior: Considering All The World A Stage

Some people consider all the world a stage. (This also is a quote from a fictional Shakespearean character called Jaques...). They would be in an "actor/actress mode" all the time. And this also has certain consequences, including, but not limited to, a very fake-ish attitude, speaking of some of them.

But as usual, any discussion about whether this behavior is right or wrong is outside of the scope of this log. It is only about describing certain aspects of communication.

Questions:

- What are the possible reasons of those who consider all the world a stage and who are something like "24/7 actors" even when it comes to their private lives?

- What are the possible reasons of those who entirely abandon thoughts like considering all the world a stage?

- What are the possible reasons of those who do something in between?
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Re: The language called communication: reading between the lines, avoiding misunderstandings, patterns of behavior

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-06, 20:37

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:So this also means to me that you, at least, don't fully disagree with myself calling communication a language :).

I actually don't disagree at all; I do realize that language, in its most general or abstract sense, encompasses any and all forms of communication between humans. That's why, for example, phrases like "the language of music" or "the language of the heart" or "body language" are used. In this log, you are referring to the act of communicating, or the noun communication, and seeking to discuss about it - what is it, how to improve it, etc. - in much the same way one would about a "normal" language such as French. The TAC is after all, really a sub-forum of the General Language Forum.
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Re: The language called communication: reading between the lines, avoiding misunderstandings, patterns of behavior

Postby langmon » 2018-11-06, 21:05

dEhiN wrote:
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:So this also means to me that you, at least, don't fully disagree with myself calling communication a language :).

I actually don't disagree at all; I do realize that language, in its most general or abstract sense, encompasses any and all forms of communication between humans. That's why, for example, phrases like "the language of music" or "the language of the heart" or "body language" are used. In this log, you are referring to the act of communicating, or the noun communication, and seeking to discuss about it - what is it, how to improve it, etc. - in much the same way one would about a "normal" language such as French. The TAC is after all, really a sub-forum of the General Language Forum.


Now there is another topic for this log even: the language of the heart.

@all: What comes to your minds when thinking of the relation between the language of the heart and any type of communication, like spoken or written words, or anything non-verbal, too?
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby langmon » 2018-11-06, 22:12

Yes I do know that this thread is rather new, but up to now, there wasn't as much feedback as I could have expected.

So... maybe there simply is something missing. Maybe this thread is like a soup lacking salt to some.
For those of you might have this point of view: What kind of salt exactly would you like to have?
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby langmon » 2018-11-07, 1:45

I still definitely plan to include a certain number of questions in most, if not all, of my posts in this thread.

However, there has been a shift of some kind.
From now on, I intend to continue writing this log as if I would know with the utmost certainty that nobody even will reply even one time only :). Yes, really.

This is being done for the sake of the writing flow. I am not at all expecting any answers, although anything useful which helps finding as many Communication Bigger Picture Mosaic Stones as possible still is very welcome.

And I do realize that there are some who would prefer not to post any reply.
There are many (both possible and certain) reasons that would prevent some of you from doing so anyway. Pure factual statement only, there is nothing more to it.
One of the major reasons in the eyes of a rather large number of persons could also be that they wouldn't even want to cause the mere impression of themselves, too, being still in need of learning more about some aspects of communication, even if they wouldn't be the same ones that I need to learn more about.

[NoBoast, NoBrag, merely explaining because otherwise this information would be incomplete, even if I expect some to directly deny what I am saying right now:]
While I still have a Partially Geeky Attitude, some of you really could be surprised how much someone like, for example, myself, could also teach you about some aspects of communication because of having a different perception of some matters. What I just said doesn't at all contradict the fact that there is still much that I need to take a very, very close look at. This is because that whole thing isn't at all something like A Black And White Picture. Instead, there is an incredibly stunning multitude of different colors, shades and sub-shades. There are things that most of you know while I currently don't know them, or don't know them in the same extent. But this also is true in a Vice-Versa Way.
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby langmon » 2018-11-07, 3:15

Pattern of behavior: Not Believing Someone Who Denies Multiple Times That He Did Something

In addition, something else: a major clarification on what this log is about and what is entirely off-topic.


As always, any "right or wrong" discussion would be Entirely Outside This Log's Scope. This applies to all of this thread's posts, including the one you are reading right now. Even if this one contains a few occurrences of "logical/illogical/valid/invalid". The difference between them being mentioned and between a "right or wrong" discussion in the way I use that term here is as follows:

[1] As for describing something as "logical/illogical" here, this is about something that is applied by both others and myself when it comes to any other language, too. But it isn't applied only, it also is something that we are writing about all the time. For example, someone could say that it couldn't be that all European languages are of Latin origin, because there are some that greatly differ from the lingua latina, then mentioning the exact reasons. This is an example of a valid logical conclusion which isn't at all outside of this log's scope (even if this particular Latin matter would only be mentioned when there is a big and direct connection to this log's very topic.)

[2] And as for a "right or wrong" discussion in the way I am using this term here, this is about a POV (point of view) related to anything beyond that. This would be like saying, for example, "it is fully appropriate to drink green tea without sugar, but it is entirely wrong to drink black tea without sugar unless you do it when you are alone". Sayings like these are what might be called "social judgements" or "judgements of society" and so on. When it comes to those, some say that they stick to them because, "it is plainly wrong to differ from the majority" (which would be another "social judgement" that not everybody would agree to). Others say something else, whatever it would be exactly. This log isn't at all meant to mention any of those POVs, whatever they are, also including my own ones. All of this would be Entirely Outside Of This Log's Scope.


So these thread's posts aren't at all about [2].

They are about [1]. And as for this post specifically, I wrote it for the purpose of illustrating that when it comes to communication, sometimes there are other possibilities of interpretation too, other than those that are very obvious to everyone or most persons.

Describing the above mentioned pattern of behavior (Not Believing Someone Who Denies Multiple Times That He Did Something):
There are some (certainly not referring to any specific persons) who tend not to believe someone who denies having done something multiple times. Among their reasons for not believing him/her could be that they say, "If you wouldn't have done it, you wouldn't have a reason to deny it so often. But because you denied it so often, it is Plainly Crystal Clear that you did it".

But isn't there the possibility of himself/herself denying it many times because of some other reasons, even if we sometimes wouldn't know them?

And in case we really would know that a behavior like this one (denying it multiple times) automatically includes a proof for that person having lied, what what be the source of our knowledge? It wouldn't be enough to simply say that, "this is known through common sense, period".

Conclusions, even when they are made in a valid and fully logical way, aren't the same as something that can be perceived through the five senses. What I just wrote doesn't mean at all that I would have misunderstood the word "sense" which is a part of "common sense". I fully and entirely realize that this term is used for something differently than "the five senses". But what I mentioned right now is about something else. It is about making a difference between what automatically is known by, for example, seeing an elephant (i.e. realizing that there is an elephant rather than an empty space of air only), and between making (logical or illogical) conclusions by stating, for example, that this elephant certainly used to be part of a circus. (These examples are meant very seriously, even if it could seem to some that they aren't.)

Even when it comes to logical conclusions (rather than illogical ones), they still differ from merely realizing that a certain space is occupied by an elephant rather than air only. Whoever says that it would "be known by basic common sense that this elephant used to be part of a circus" isn't referring to something as straight-forward as simply looking at the elephant in order to realize that he is present and not absent. Even if his conclusions are valid, he is referring to something beyond the five senses. Or more specifically, if his conclusions really are valid, then he is referring to some valid logical principles. Because of that, it wouldn't be sufficient to claim that it is "is known by common sense that this elephant must have been part of a circus, period" when there isn't anything behind his claim. Otherwise it also would be possible for someone who disagrees to claim that "it is known by common sense that this elephant simply couldn't have been part of a circus, period".

In the end of this post there is one more thing I would like to mention:
It also would be Entirely Outside This Log's Scope to either say that it can be proven through the basics of pure logic that "it simply is appropriate to stick to whatever the majority says" or that it can be disproven through the basics of pure logic. I am here for languages, not for the purpose of discussing topics like these. Whatever my POV on them and their significance to me is, I am not even mentioning it here.

On the other hand, I fully agree to discuss something else if it is in accordance to this log's purpose. This is about anything related to things like:

- How to express oneself very clearly in order to be fully understood?

- How to avoid reading something between the lines that isn't there?

- How to prevent others from doing so when it comes to one's own sayings?

- What are some possible effects of using some rather uncommon words, does it hinder communication, or are there also many people who appreciate it because it fuels their curiosity?

- Does the vast majority really like/dislike drinking tea with/without sugar? And why do/don't they like it?
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby langmon » 2018-11-07, 6:56

Way of written speech: Capitalizing All Words In An English Phrase

Before mentioning anything else, yes, I do realize that some of you could laugh a bit right now, because the person writing this himself is using it rather often.

And yes, to at least a few it even could seem as if I was parodying myself or even "trolling myself" in case such a thing even exists :roll:... But it isn't about any of that. This post is being written because I like this log to be as broad-scope as possible (within its limits), for the sake of breaking down communication as much as possible. And as for "breaking it down", this of course is about analyzing and "decoding" it, not about destruction :).

Some people tend to capitalize all words in an English phrase sometimes.
This is being done through various reasons, one of them simply is the desire to emphasize something.

And it doesn't seem to me at all as something that even the majority of any country's population has one single shared point of view on.

But these are some possible perceptions of that way of speech (Capitalizing All Words In An English Phrase), while it of course also depends on several other factors, like the context, the person using it, and also on what the reader knows/thinks to know/doesn't know about the person applying this written language pattern:

- Being reminded of other already known phrases that also are frequently capitalized.

- Thinking of advertisements.

- Or also being reminded of those who try to sell useless but over-prized items, otherwise known as "snake oil".

- Simply not knowing why a specific person uses this way of written speech.

- Sensing a mild breeze of air, i.e. something refreshening.

- Possibly (or almost certainly even) many more that I am not aware of.

If anyone would ask me why I use this pattern of written speech even if some could get it wrong, I'd simply say that the possibility of being misunderstood always is there, but just as this sole fact doesn't make others entirely quit any verbal or written communication, it also doesn't make me quit it either.
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby langmon » 2018-11-07, 7:05

This log isn't taking up all of my language-related energies, but, currently and right now, most of it.
Yes, I mentioned elsewhere (in the Swahili log) that I have a certain amount of both Japanese and Swahili energy that are rather unrelated to each other. But this log's topic is different, because it also is interlinked to all of those languages.

Pattern of behavior: Saying "I'll do it later" or "I'll do it tomorrow", but wanting to say "I'll never do it"

This pattern is about those who use the words "later" and "tomorrow" when they mean "never". Sometimes they also, in addition, want to let the other person know that they mean "never" and not anything else, but they wouldn't agree to explicitly state it even when asked.

What are their reasons for saying "later" and "tomorrow" but meaning "never"?

What exactly prevents them from openly stating it even when asked?

And what can their listeners do for the most possible degree of disambiguation?

Side note: It wouldn't be enough of an answer to say that it simply depends on the context.

Another side note: I also am sometimes asking questions while knowing the answer myself, or knowing parts of it. But this log isn't meant for me only, otherwise I simply could write it without ever "publishing" (posting) anything.
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby langmon » 2018-11-07, 7:12

Pattern of behavior: Outruling The Possibility Of Someone Forgetting Something That Is Important To Him/Her

Some say, "if this was important to you, you simply wouldn't have forgotten it".

Why do they say so?

Do they have any particular information that is backing up their idea, and if so, what would that be?

And is it more common to say something like this while also admitting that there can be some exceptions, or would it be more common even to fully negate the mere possibility of any exceptions, too?
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby langmon » 2018-11-07, 7:39

Pattern of behavior: Not Doing What One Personally Would Like To Do Because Of Something Called "Political Correctness"

Some people do not do certain actions that they personally would like to do because of the sole existence of something called "political correctness".

Among their reasons for not opposing it is a certain kind of fear that even could feel similar to inner paralyzation sometimes. A person I had a conversation with said, "the fear of most people of death or being imprisoned is less than their fear of publicly loosing their faces".

Now it would be interesting to analyze that one a bit more. Or also to take a very close look at it.

And what other reasons are there, too?
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby langmon » 2018-11-07, 7:45

Pattern of behavior: Speaking Like A Kid Sometimes

It can happen that someone intentionally decides to say one or two sentences in the very same way a kid would do it, too.

This could happen, for example, when

- speaking to kids

- wanting to express really being very happy, because the "very normal" way of telling it wouldn't convey all of this situation's specific emotions sometimes

- wanting to do something that is a bit unusual for the purpose of surprising someone
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby langmon » 2018-11-07, 7:46

Pattern of behavior: Always Blaming The Others Only But Not Oneself

This pattern could be rather clear by reading its description only :).

What are the possible or actual motivations of those doing so?
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby langmon » 2018-11-07, 7:53

Pattern of behavior: Expecting Everyone To Act Entirely "Mainstreamish" Just Like "Everyone Else Does It, Too"

A large number of people expects everyone to act very "mainstreamish" without differing from "The Way That All Humans Simply Got To Do Certain Things".

Why (= for what reason) exactly do they expect others to do so?

What are some possible explanations for themselves not wanting to differ from "everyone else"? Habits? Tradition? An idea that they simply stick to without knowing themselves why they do so?

And what are some possible explanations for the behavior of those who do not agree to these thoughts?

(As always, this thread isn't about a "right or wrong" discussion. For more detail on that, everyone can refer to this post:

Pattern of behavior: Not Believing Someone Who Denies Multiple Times That He Did Something
In addition, something else: a major clarification on what this log is about and what is entirely off-topic.


https://forum.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56140&start=20#p1123611 )
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