Random language thread 6

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby md0 » 2019-06-23, 7:22

I saw this image in an article about just now, and the мир и мiръ title confused me. At first I thought мiръ was the Ukrainian spelling (because of 'i') and this was some sort of bilingual pun. But it looks like that's not it, and that мiръ is still Russian, and it's used to disambiguate the two definitions of мир?
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Naava » 2019-06-23, 7:53

md0 wrote:But it looks like that's not it, and that мiръ is still Russian, and it's used to disambiguate the two definitions of мир?

I checked Wiktionary and looks like that's the pre-reform orthography spelling that was used over 100 years ago. :shock: I wonder if it's still common to write мiръ for 'world' or if Russians are just as puzzled as you were.

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby md0 » 2019-06-23, 9:51

It never crossed my mind that 'i' was once part of Russian Cyrillic. I'm very curious about the pragmatic effects here too. I wonder if its like the sporadic use of Chinese characters in modern Korean in order to disambiguate homophones, or if it has a primarily political function like the use of older spelling conventions in Greek (if we are talking Russia over a hundred years ago, maybe an appeal to monarchist/imperial sentiments?)
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-06-24, 8:00

Well, I did a Google search for "мiръ" in quotes and got 443,000 results. It seems they mostly have to do with the correct spelling of the original title of War and Peace. So I'm guessing it's a pretty well-known spelling among Russian-speakers.
Vlürch wrote:
Naava wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Where are you seeing that? Wiktionary says the plural is banyak kupu-kupu.

I tried to google it and the preview says kupu-kupu-kupu-kupu but the actual page has banyak kupu-kupu. :hmm:

Yeah, same, I saw that when I googled the quadruple "kupu" after seeing on Wiktionary's translations for butterfly that it's kupu-kupu in Malay/Indonesian; I could've sworn I also clicked on it afterwards and that it said exactly that, but looking at the entry's history reveals it supposedly never said that. :para:

Weird. I see the same. Must be something screwy with Google's search algorithm or something again.
Is there any language that uses only reduplication for plurals?

Possibly some Salishan languages, such as Shuswap. For whatever it's worth, I can't find any evidence yet that those languages have any other means of pluralization.
Osias wrote:Why?

"To fix my soul"? "To arrange my soul"?
Linguaphile wrote: :noclue:

I know I've said this before, but that smiley does not look to me like someone shrugging their shoulders, dammit. It looks to me like someone getting electrocuted at regular intervals or something. :P

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Naava » 2019-06-24, 8:05

vijayjohn wrote:
Linguaphile wrote: :noclue:

I know I've said this before, but that smiley does not look to me like someone shrugging their shoulders, dammit. It looks to me like someone getting electrocuted at regular intervals or something. :P

Thanks, now I can't unsee that.

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby księżycowy » 2019-06-24, 8:10

vijayjohn wrote:
Linguaphile wrote: :noclue:

I know I've said this before, but that smiley does not look to me like someone shrugging their shoulders, dammit. It looks to me like someone getting electrocuted at regular intervals or something. :P

You need to get your eyes checked.....

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Osias » 2019-06-24, 11:07

vijayjohn wrote:
Osias wrote:Why?

"To fix my soul"? "To arrange my soul"?
Is his difficulty to learn to sing the lyrics or to understand their meaning? BTW, I think is 'to fix'.
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby france-eesti » 2019-06-24, 12:03

Hey about this! My daughter has to learn a song in English for end of school celebration. She has to learn it by phonetics, not understand what she's saying... Which makes it hard for her! For us (my husband and I) it's very easy as we understand it easily...
Has any of you any tip I could use so as to make easier for her?
I remember when I was a kid (under 10) I had to learn a song in Russian, same problem, and when I was 12 I saw kids learning "manhã de carnaval" in Portuguese, only by pronouncing... now I don't think I could learn a song without understand its lyrics and knowing exactly how to write every word I sing! :shock:
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby linguoboy » 2019-06-24, 14:20

Linguaphile wrote:
linguoboy wrote:I've been trying to learn the lyrics to the Porter song "Pájaros" and I have to say that the line "Para arreglarme el alma" is a real ballbuster.

Osias wrote:Why?

I listened to the song and I wonder if Lingoboy's comment might be because of the way Porter uses synaleph (sinalefa) in that line: par'arreglarm'el alma. :?:

I recognise that I may be somewhat unusual in having trouble with velar fricatives in close proximity to trills, but I thought alternating between liquids was a more generalised challenge. (Plus I have the additional difficulty as a native English-speaker of remembering not to velarise any of the laterals.)
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-06-24, 14:21

Osias wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Osias wrote:Why?

"To fix my soul"? "To arrange my soul"?
Is his difficulty to learn to sing the lyrics or to understand their meaning? BTW, I think is 'to fix'.

Yes, I agree that it is "to fix". It's common in songs and poetry, sometimes arreglarse el alma, sometimes arreglarse el corazón. I hadn't thought of the meaning being an odd-sounding phrase, but you're right. Think of it like arreglarse el pelo - to fix one's hair, to do do one's hair. You want your hair to be "fixed," "in order," "arranged" - everything in its place, and the same with your heart or soul. Maybe in English it would be something like "to heal one's soul," "to heal one's heart" or "to soothe one's soul."

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby linguoboy » 2019-06-24, 14:47

Linguaphile wrote:
Osias wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Osias wrote:Why?

"To fix my soul"? "To arrange my soul"?
Is his difficulty to learn to sing the lyrics or to understand their meaning? BTW, I think is 'to fix'.

Yes, I agree that it is "to fix". It's common in songs and poetry, sometimes arreglarse el alma, sometimes arreglarse el corazón.

The meaning was completely transparent to me even if I can't think of a natural-sounding English translation. It never occurred to me that someone would think that this was the problem.
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Osias » 2019-06-24, 16:10

Linguaphile wrote:Maybe in English it would be something like "to heal one's soul," "to heal one's heart" or "to soothe one's soul."

Well, there's Coldplay's "Fix you".
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-06-24, 17:12

linguoboy wrote:I thought alternating between liquids was a more generalised challenge. (Plus I have the additional difficulty as a native English-speaker of remembering not to velarise any of the laterals.)

I think :?: that tends to be less of a problem for native Spanish-speakers than it is in English, and maybe that's because of the different in the pronunciation (postalveolar approximant in English versus flaps and trills in Spanish, etc). I've always had trouble with pronouncing words like rural in English but don't have the same problem with the Spanish pronunciation of rural, for example, or with this line in the song. In any case I don't know why I didn't think of all those l's and r's being the issue, when I do have a similar issue in English myself.

Osias wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Maybe in English it would be something like "to heal one's soul," "to heal one's heart" or "to soothe one's soul."

Well, there's Coldplay's "Fix you".
True!

linguoboy wrote:It never occurred to me that someone would think that this was the problem.

You posted your comment several days ago and you hadn't yet explained why you considered the line to be "a real ballbuster." Vijay pointed out that the literal translation could be either "fix your soul" or "arrange your soul". Whether or not it was what you meant by your post, at that point the conversation had spun off in various directions, all of them (imho) appropriate for this thread. You aren't the only one learning Spanish here; they were all valid points or questions whether or not they were the ones you had intended, and I thought the discussion was an interesting one overall!

france-eesti wrote:Hey about this! My daughter has to learn a song in English for end of school celebration. She has to learn it by phonetics, not understand what she's saying... Which makes it hard for her! For us (my husband and I) it's very easy as we understand it easily...
Has any of you any tip I could use so as to make easier for her?
I remember when I was a kid (under 10) I had to learn a song in Russian, same problem, and when I was 12 I saw kids learning "manhã de carnaval" in Portuguese, only by pronouncing... now I don't think I could learn a song without understand its lyrics and knowing exactly how to write every word I sing! :shock:

On the one hand, that sounds difficult. On the other hand, I think of all the teenagers around the world who have learned lyrics to English-language songs without understanding them, or the songs I learned to sing along to in languages I didn't know when I was younger. The difference there is that the song is one that the listener really likes and wants to listen to over and over; the motivation is "liking the song" and "wanting to listen to it over and over". In this case, if I understood you correctly, she doesn't get to choose a song she likes; the song has already been chosen for her. Is that right? What is the song? How much time does she have to learn it?

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby linguoboy » 2019-06-24, 17:35

Linguaphile wrote:
linguoboy wrote:It never occurred to me that someone would think that this was the problem.

You posted your comment several days ago and you hadn't yet explained why you considered the line to be "a real ballbuster."

I don't usually log into Unilang on the weekends. If I'd imagined someone might interpret my comment as applying to something other than the pronunciation, I would have been more explicit in the OP. But you're right that it did lead to an interesting discussion.
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-06-25, 0:22

Naava wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Linguaphile wrote: :noclue:

I know I've said this before, but that smiley does not look to me like someone shrugging their shoulders, dammit. It looks to me like someone getting electrocuted at regular intervals or something. :P

Thanks, now I can't unsee that.

Yay! Now I'm not the only one anymore! :silly:
Osias wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Osias wrote:Why?

"To fix my soul"? "To arrange my soul"?
Is his difficulty to learn to sing the lyrics or to understand their meaning?

I didn't know, but "to fix my soul" still doesn't make any sense to me without context.
france-eesti wrote:Hey about this! My daughter has to learn a song in English for end of school celebration. She has to learn it by phonetics, not understand what she's saying... Which makes it hard for her! For us (my husband and I) it's very easy as we understand it easily...
Has any of you any tip I could use so as to make easier for her?

Try to explain to her what it means?
linguoboy wrote:I thought alternating between liquids was a more generalised challenge.

Yeah, but not so much for a native speaker of Spanish, a Brazilian, and a Malayalee! :P Malayalam has at least five phonemic liquids, and there are two each both in the name of the language and in the name of the state where it's mainly spoken. (One of them in each word is /ɭ/, and the last morpheme in both of them is probably the same).

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby france-eesti » 2019-06-25, 10:17

linguoboy wrote:On the one hand, that sounds difficult. On the other hand, I think of all the teenagers around the world who have learned lyrics to English-language songs without understanding them, or the songs I learned to sing along to in languages I didn't know when I was younger. The difference there is that the song is one that the listener really likes and wants to listen to over and over; the motivation is "liking the song" and "wanting to listen to it over and over". In this case, if I understood you correctly, she doesn't get to choose a song she likes; the song has already been chosen for her. Is that right? What is the song? How much time does she have to learn it?


Hii thanks for your reply, indeed she didn't get to choose the song. It's not hard in my opinion but it countains a few words she doesn't know...
The song is:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F62L1TaDIUk
She enjoys listening to it but maybe not over and over... It quickly gets boring :D
She needs to know it by Saturday :D but I guess if there are some words she cannot pronunciate correctly, with all kids singing together she won't be spotted :partyhat:
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby linguoboy » 2019-06-25, 12:37

france-eesti wrote:
linguoboy wrote:On the one hand, that sounds difficult. On the other hand, I think of all the teenagers around the world who have learned lyrics to English-language songs without understanding them, or the songs I learned to sing along to in languages I didn't know when I was younger. The difference there is that the song is one that the listener really likes and wants to listen to over and over; the motivation is "liking the song" and "wanting to listen to it over and over". In this case, if I understood you correctly, she doesn't get to choose a song she likes; the song has already been chosen for her. Is that right? What is the song? How much time does she have to learn it?


Hii thanks for your reply, indeed she didn't get to choose the song. It's not hard in my opinion but it countains a few words she doesn't know...
The song is:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F62L1TaDIUk
She enjoys listening to it but maybe not over and over... It quickly gets boring :D
She needs to know it by Saturday :D but I guess if there are some words she cannot pronunciate correctly, with all kids singing together she won't be spotted :partyhat:

“Linguaphile” and “linguoboy” are different people. Please do not confuse us.
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-06-25, 14:01

france-eesti wrote:Hii thanks for your reply, indeed she didn't get to choose the song. It's not hard in my opinion but it countains a few words she doesn't know...
The song is:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F62L1TaDIUk
She enjoys listening to it but maybe not over and over... It quickly gets boring :D
She needs to know it by Saturday :D but I guess if there are some words she cannot pronunciate correctly, with all kids singing together she won't be spotted :partyhat:

It's a nice song! The good thing is that if you take out the repetition it is only six lines (and apparently contains some words she already knows)? Maybe one way to help her learn the words could be for you to say or sing the first part of the line and have her try to correctly come up with the second part of the line (i.e. you say peace is shaking someone's hand and she says and being a good friend). She would learn the second half the lines through having to remember them as you "quiz" her and she would learn the first half of each line from hearing you say it repeatedly. I think that kind of practice would help her with performing the song because if she has trouble remembering something during the performance, hearing the other children sing the first words of the line would be the cue she uses to remember the second part of the line.
And since it is only six lines, I think that making sure she understands what she is saying wouldn't be too much either, and it's a message that's good for kids.
(Actually, it's a message that's good for adults too. :silly: )
Honestly if I were the teacher I would have the whole class learn it this same way, and assign the students who are best at remembering the words to sing the first half of each line, and then either all of the kids or just the other kids to sing the second half of each line - I think it would sound good that way (it would be fine for the second half of each line to have more voices)! Well, I know you can't influence how the teacher does it with the class but I think this might be a strategy for your daughter to learn it. You would start by providing the first half of the lines yourself but as she gets better at that you would have her start to say the whole thing.

There is a way that we can live / and peace is the way, P-E-A-C-E, and peace is the way.
Peace is shaking someone’s hand /and being a good friend, :woohoo: -E-A-C-E, and being a good friend.
Peace is dancing to the beat / and having fun together, :woohoo: - :woohoo: -A-C-E, and having fun together.
Peace is sharing your nice smile / and spreading lots of sunshine, :woohoo: - :woohoo: - :woohoo: -C-E, and spreading lots of sunshine.
Peace is choosing not to hurt / and playing safe together, :woohoo: - :woohoo: - :woohoo: - :woohoo: -E, and playing safe together.
Peace is helping with our hands / and being kind to others, :woohoo: - :woohoo: - :woohoo: - :woohoo: - :woohoo: , and being kind to others.

There is a way that we can live / and peace is the way, P-E-A-C-E, and peace is the way.

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-06-25, 16:10

Oh whoops, sorry, I didn't see that you'd already replied to france-eesti! :P

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-06-25, 16:16

vijayjohn wrote:Oh whoops, sorry, I didn't see that you'd already replied to france-eesti! :P

Why "sorry"? I would think different perspectives would be helpful. No one has a monopoly on responding to questions. The more the merrier! :D


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