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Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-19, 0:54
by vijayjohn
Vlürch wrote:does that mean Malayalam originally had only /k/?

It could be that it still does. It's not clear to me whether the other velar stops are separate phonemes yet or not. Tamil seems to only have /k/ as a phoneme although FWIU it also has either [g] or [h] or both as an allophone or allophones depending on the variety.
Random thing: my brother and me went to get pizzas from the local pizzeria last Sunday and while we were waiting, at one of the tables there was a group of people who spoke some language that we couldn't recognise with certainty but was obviously some Iranian language. It sounded more like Kurdish than anything else, but that impression could've been influenced by them looking so much like Kurds. Seems like at least the language couldn't have been Kurdish, though, because they definitely said [dær~d̪æɾ] a lot, but apparently it doesn't exist as a preposition in Kurdish like it does in Persian. :?

Der does exist in Kurmanji, both as a preposition and as a postposition, from what I can tell. It can also be a noun and is part of some fixed expressions (e.g. dan der 'to reveal').

Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-21, 6:27
by Lur
Vlürch wrote:
Lur wrote:People say that I'm fluent in English but my pronunciation is probably hilarious.

Do you aim to use the American R or intentionally avoid it? Because it's one of those things I can't decide, like on one hand I like using [ɾ] intervocalically and I guess [ɹ] elsewhere (or go non-rhotic in words where that feels more natural) both because it's easier and sounds less American, but on the other hand making the [ɻ] sound is fun (as long as it's not a hyper-American [ɻʷˤ] :P ) and I'm sure makes it easier for some native speakers to understand...

I think I'd just go with [ɾ] everywhere :para:

Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-22, 13:13
by Vlürch
vijayjohn wrote:It could be that it still does. It's not clear to me whether the other velar stops are separate phonemes yet or not. Tamil seems to only have /k/ as a phoneme although FWIU it also has either [g] or [h] or both as an allophone or allophones depending on the variety.

That's pretty weird, that something as major as that could be ambiguous... or is it kind of the same thing as [ʃ] and [t͡ʃ] in Finnish, which are usually considered phonemes even if they only appear in loanwords (at least in the standard language) and aren't taught to kids? Like, various things can be argued to either support or reject their phonemic status?
vijayjohn wrote:Der does exist in Kurmanji, both as a preposition and as a postposition, from what I can tell. It can also be a noun and is part of some fixed expressions (e.g. dan der 'to reveal').

Huh, thanks. It's pretty much certain that it was Kurdish, then. :P I couldn't find anything about any kind of Kurdish der myself when I tried, but I only checked Wiktionary and googled "Kurdish der preposition", which at least now has this list that includes der right on the first page, so obviously I just didn't look hard enough. Considering I used to passionately spend hours trying to find even remotely plausible matches for things in the "identify the language" thread and whatnot, this is pretty embarrassing...
Lur wrote:I think I'd just go with [ɾ] everywhere :para:

Scottish style! :D Or at least some Scottish... the best Scottish?

Also, not that anyone cares (but this is the "random language thread"), once I accidentally slipped up into using [ɾ~r] everywhere myself when I was startled by a really hot guy asking me in English to donate to the Red Cross. :lol: I didn't donate anything because I just couldn't afford to give any money away every month (and tbh I'm kinda suspicious about the Red Cross even if it's supposedly not involved in missionarism or corruption), but I just wanted to talk to him for like ten seconds anyway, and embarrassed myself by making some kind of [ŋːø̞ːxː] noise before walking away... I don't know why I tend to make weird meaningless embarrassing noises, but I do.

Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-22, 17:01
by linguoboy
I had a really fun conversation yesterday with a friend of a friend who's visiting from Paris. Although I knew he was bilingual, having moved there from London, I had no idea he was also a language freak until we started talking. When he got back to where he was staying, he started a discussion group for languages on Facebook and invited me.

Because of his circumstances, he knows a lot of other guys in similar situations, so we've been talking a lot about code-switching. Our first conversation there was mostly in French and I posted about the difficulties I have switching register in that language. One of the members is a Frenchman living in Kansas who also studied Welsh so now we've each dusted off our tipyn bach and are nattering away in it.

Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-23, 6:39
by Ciarán12
I went to a small comedy gig last night that a collegue of mine was performing at. One of the acts was a Dutch woman who said she had been living here for 5 years. She sounded 100% Irish to me, I couldn't detect the slightest hint of a Dutch accent.

Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-23, 14:13
by Osias
Sua alma gêmea!

Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-23, 17:59
by Ciarán12
Osias wrote:Sua alma gêmea!


Acho que falar sem sotaque notável não é tão raro como você pensa.

Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-23, 18:31
by Osias
É que eu nunca vi.

Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-23, 20:50
by Ciarán12
Osias wrote:É que eu nunca vi.


Só por curiosidade, você conhece muitos estrangeiros que falam português?

Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-23, 21:11
by OldBoring
Ciarán12 wrote:
Osias wrote:É que eu nunca vi.


Só por curiosidade, você conhece muitos estrangeiros que falam português?

Os portugueses, duh! :P

Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-23, 21:27
by Ciarán12
OldBoring wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:
Osias wrote:É que eu nunca vi.


Só por curiosidade, você conhece muitos estrangeiros que falam português?

Os portugueses, duh! :P


:) Bom, eu quis dizer estrangeiros que não falam português como língua nativa.

Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-23, 21:44
by Osias
Já vi muitos ao longo da vida mas ultimamente poucos.

A maioria dos que vejo recentemente são youtubers ou jornalistas como Green Grindewald, que estão há anos do Brasil e ainda tem sotaque forte e erram gênero, etc.

A maioria uma hora ou outra erra o subjuntivo. Só vi uma russa acertar, uma vez, acho até que comentei aqui. Em compensação errou a distinção entre 'ser' e 'estar'.

A pessoa que mais me impressionou com o sotaque foi a francesa namorada de um colega, mas acho que só vi ela falar duas frases.

Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-23, 22:02
by Ciarán12
Osias wrote:A maioria dos que vejo recentemente são youtubers ou jornalistas como Green Grindewald, que estão há anos do Brasil e ainda tem sotaque forte e erram gênero, etc.

A maioria uma hora ou outra erra o subjuntivo. Só vi uma russa acertar, uma vez, acho até que comentei aqui. Em compensação errou a distinção entre 'ser' e 'estar'.


Isso não tem a ver com o sotaque, mas sim com a gramática. Comito todos estes erros também às vezes, mas isso não significa que falo com sotaque de gringo, nem que eu erro sempre na concordância de gênero ou do uso do subjuntivo.
Acho que é só que algumas pessoas têm o dom de poder imitar sotaques facilmente.

Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-24, 7:12
by Saim
Non vexo a contradicción entre as dúas ideas. É posíbel adquirir un acento nativo o case nativo, mais non é moi común.

Non sei se é soamente unha cuestión de talento, probabelmente tamén inflúe a cantidade de input (claro, hai que escoitar moito), a imitación consciente e a conciencia das diferenzas fonolóxicas, e algúns factores psicolóxicos (a habilidade de prescindir da identidade lingüística propia, empatía cos falantes, confianza en si mesmo).

Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-24, 7:16
by vijayjohn
Vlürch wrote:is it kind of the same thing as [ʃ] and [t͡ʃ] in Finnish, which are usually considered phonemes even if they only appear in loanwords (at least in the standard language) and aren't taught to kids?

I guess. Maybe it has something to do with the way symbols in Indian writing systems tend to be organized, by place of articulation from back to front and by manner of articulation in this order: voiceless unaspirated, voiceless aspirated, voiced unaspirated, voiced aspirated, nasal. Tamil script, however, did away with all the Indo-Aryan nonsense, so it just has voiceless unaspirated plosive followed by nasal for each POA.
Huh, thanks. It's pretty much certain that it was Kurdish, then. :P I couldn't find anything about any kind of Kurdish der myself when I tried, but I only checked Wiktionary and googled "Kurdish der preposition", which at least now has this list that includes der right on the first page, so obviously I just didn't look hard enough. Considering I used to passionately spend hours trying to find even remotely plausible matches for things in the "identify the language" thread and whatnot, this is pretty embarrassing...

ProTip for Kurmanji (courtesy of voron): Use glosbe to look shit up. The Kurmanji -> Turkish version seems to be even more helpful than the Kurmanji -> English one.

Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-24, 11:09
by Osias
Ciarán12 wrote:
Isso não tem a ver com o sotaque, mas sim com a gramática. Cometo todos estes erros também às vezes, mas isso não significa que falo com sotaque de gringo, nem que eu erro sempre na concordância de gênero ou do uso do subjuntivo.
Acho que é só que algumas pessoas têm o dom de poder imitar sotaques facilmente.

Na minha cabeça tem uma hierarquia: Falar com a gramática certa é mais fácil que falar sem sotaque. Essas pessoas que moram aqui há anos nem a gramática acertam 100%, que dirá o sotaque. E estrangeiro falando sem sotaque a ponto de dizerem 'você parece brasileiro' é algo pra mim totalmente unheard of.

Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-24, 11:11
by Osias
Saim wrote:Non vexo a contradicción entre as dúas ideas. É posíbel adquirir un acento nativo o case nativo, mais non é moi común.

Non sei se é soamente unha cuestión de talento, probabelmente tamén inflúe a cantidade de input (claro, hai que escoitar moito), a imitación consciente e a conciencia das diferenzas fonolóxicas, e algúns factores psicolóxicos (a habilidade de prescindir da identidade lingüística propia, empatía cos falantes, confianza en si mesmo).
Having saying all that, my own English accent must be atrocious.

Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-24, 13:56
by Vlürch
vijayjohn wrote:I guess. Maybe it has something to do with the way symbols in Indian writing systems tend to be organized, by place of articulation from back to front and by manner of articulation in this order: voiceless unaspirated, voiceless aspirated, voiced unaspirated, voiced aspirated, nasal. Tamil script, however, did away with all the Indo-Aryan nonsense, so it just has voiceless unaspirated plosive followed by nasal for each POA.

It's always interesting to learn how different writing systems are ordered, even if I'll forget within an hour. :para:
vijayjohn wrote:ProTip for Kurmanji (courtesy of voron): Use glosbe to look shit up. The Kurmanji -> Turkish version seems to be even more helpful than the Kurmanji -> English one.

Ok, thanks! :D

Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-24, 17:38
by Ciarán12
Osias wrote:Na minha cabeça tem uma hierarquia: Falar com a gramática certa é mais fácil que falar sem sotaque. Essas pessoas que moram aqui há anos nem a gramática acertam 100%, que dirá o sotaque. E estrangeiro falando sem sotaque a ponto de dizerem 'você parece brasileiro' é algo pra mim totalmente unheard of.


Eu sei que a falta de pessoas que falam com sotaque nativo ou quase nativo junto com o fato que têm sim muitas pessoas que falam com sotaque estrangeiro mesmo acertando na gramática mostra que talvez seja o caso que dominar a gramática é mais fácil, mas eu nunca pude entender isso. Falar com sotaque convincente é só uma questão de escutar e imitar, como pode ser tão difícil? Porém a gramática e o vocabulário para mim são desafios muito maiores. Não entendo o difícil de imitar um sotaque...

Re: Random language thread 6

Posted: 2019-05-24, 20:48
by Osias
Ciarán12 wrote: Falar com sotaque convincente é só uma questão de escutar e imitar, como pode ser tão difícil?

Eu faço a mesma pergunta. É um grande mistério.

Porém a gramática e o vocabulário para mim são desafios muito maiores.
Pra mim essa é a parte fácil, ou pelo menos foi enquanto eu aprendia inglês e espanhol.

Não entendo a dificuldade de imitar um sotaque...
A dificuldade em imitar é uma, a dificuldade em fazer a sério são outros quinhentos...