Random language thread 6

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby księżycowy » 2018-12-07, 12:45

I readily admit, my pronunciation isn't any where near as fast as native speakers (at least on the news and political talk shows I've listened too :P ), but I'm getting there.

There are a lot of sz/ś and cz/ć in Polish though. :lol:

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby IpseDixit » 2018-12-07, 14:48

Latin comes from Sardinian, says someone with a degree in political sciences. :roll: (and Sardinian news outlets apparently take him seriously.)

https://youtu.be/FlMmH_3e16g

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby mōdgethanc » 2018-12-08, 0:00

Saim wrote:Am I the only one who thinks that (European) Portuguese sounds like (Eastern) Catalan? And not like Russian or Polish or whatever?
I imagine it's because many of us would have no idea what eastern Catalan sounds like.
Pronounced in isolation (and in final position for many but not all speakers) <ą> is fairly close to <ão>, and I guess the nasalised dipthong in, say, wiedski is similar to <em>, but in general Polish only really nasalises before fricatives whereas the Portuguese system is much more robust.
Polish is also kind of like Hindi or Japanese in that nasalization becomes /n/ or /m/ before stops whereas in Portuguese it doesn't.

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Luís » 2018-12-08, 10:06

Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Saim » 2018-12-08, 10:48

mōdgethanc wrote:]I imagine it's because many of us would have no idea what eastern Catalan sounds like.


If you've ever heard Catalan at all you've probably heard an eastern variety of it.

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby IpseDixit » 2018-12-08, 11:00

Saim wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:]I imagine it's because many of us would have no idea what eastern Catalan sounds like.


If you've ever heard Catalan at all you've probably heard an eastern variety of it.


It doesn't seem to me that /ʃ/ is really that predominant in Catalan. And IMO that's one of the main reasons Portuguese might sound Slavic-ish to an untrained ear.

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby mōdgethanc » 2018-12-08, 21:45

Saim wrote:If you've ever heard Catalan
I just realized that I've never heard it in my life, only seen it written.

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Vlürch » 2018-12-10, 21:30

IpseDixit wrote:Latin comes from Sardinian, says someone with a degree in political sciences. :roll: (and Sardinian news outlets apparently take him seriously.)

Is he a far-righter? According to Wikipedia, Sardinian nationalism has generally been left-wing, so how...?
mōdgethanc wrote:
Saim wrote:If you've ever heard Catalan
I just realized that I've never heard it in my life, only seen it written.

Same. Even when there was something on TV about Catalan independence activists, they all spoke Spanish. That seemed a bit weird to me, but I guess it's the same as Sami independence activists in Finland using Finnish... except that Catalan and Spanish have AFAIK a fairly high level of mutual intelligibility, whereas to Finnish-speakers all the Sami languages sound like gibberish with a funny accent, obviously because Spanish and Catalan are much more closely related to each other than any of the Uralic languages are to each other. And obviously the political situation is different, with Catalans being deprived of autonomy and I guess facing threats of genocide and all that.

But anyway, based on the IPA in the Catalan dictionary I have, it doesn't seem that close to Portuguese. Based on the IPA transcriptions of individual words it seems like the most overcecillified Spanish and the most overgrumped French had a baby. Personally I'm not a fan of either cecille or grumping, so Catalan should sound fairly unpleasant to my ears...

...but judging by this video, it does sound quite a lot like Portuguese and not at all cecillified or grumped, and surprisingly it actually sounds nice. And then, in this video, it sounds a lot more like Spanish with less cecillification than expected and some grumping. In this one, it also sounds a lot like Spanish but "stiffer" and with more grumping.

If I hadn't watched the other two, my impression of Catalan would be that it's a beautiful language spoken by beautiful women and that it doesn't have any annoying cecillifcation and only a little bit of grumping... but the latter two gave me mixed feelings. I mean, it doesn't sound bad (it's really undercecillified compared to Spanish, and the grumping isn't so bad), which is a surprise considering how it looks in IPA, but I can't tell if I like it more than Spanish or not.

Listening to just the first one over and over again in the background as I'm typing this, it does overall sound better than Spanish because it doesn't seem to have [β] and [ɣ], which I'm not a fan of in Spanish even if they sound nice in some languages; on the other hand, I kind of prefer Spanish because it has [ð], which is a sound I like.

But this is making me realise just how bad my Spanish is. I mean, obviously Catalan isn't fully mutually intelligible with Spanish, but I should be able to understand at least a little bit. I only caught like 5% out of any of the videos; least of the first one (literally two or three words), most of the second one... as in, I could probably have understood about a third of it even without the subtitles if I was focusing enough, but that's not saying much since those are only the words that are more or less identical in English as well. :oops:

Not sure what this incoherent "review" of Catalan was all about. No offence towards Catalans (or anyone else) intended.

I should just give up on languages since I suck so much, or just force myself to focus on one or two languages. I wish I could fully dedicate myself to Japanese or Russian, but how...? With Japanese I have the problem that I still keep mixing up even basic kanji (but not some useless obscure ones that no one even uses), and with Russian I have the problem that the pronunciation of actual words is simply impossible. AAAAHH

But well, it could be worse. At least I'm slowly getting better at Japanese, or at least feel like I am. Totally forgetting everything about all the Turkic languages, though...

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Iván » 2018-12-10, 21:55

Vlürch wrote:...but judging by this video, it does sound quite a lot like Portuguese and not at all cecillified or grumped, and surprisingly it actually sounds nice. And then, in this video, it sounds a lot more like Spanish with less cecillification than expected and some grumping. In this one, it also sounds a lot like Spanish but "stiffer" and with more grumping.


I just want to point out that the girl from the first video speaks Catalan as it is spoken in Mallorca. I still remember how puzzled I was the first time I heard someone speaking it. Luckily I rapidly got used to it since most of my friends at university are from there. I sometimes struggle speaking my own Catalan when I'm with them and I end up using their words as well. I personally love Mallorcan.

Lately I've also been working with people from South America and I've asked them what Catalans sounds like to them and they say it either sounds like Spanish with shorter and archaic words or a mix between Spanish, French and Portuguese. :hmm:
Minkä nuorena oppii, sen vanhana taitaa.

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby IpseDixit » 2018-12-10, 22:04

Vlürch wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:Latin comes from Sardinian, says someone with a degree in political sciences. :roll: (and Sardinian news outlets apparently take him seriously.)

Is he a far-righter? According to Wikipedia, Sardinian nationalism has generally been left-wing, so how...?


I don't know his political views, didn't really want to waste my time researching into it. :) I don't even know whether he's an independentist (chances are high though, I guess).

And anyways, left-wingers are fully capable of saying BS stuff too.

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Johanna » 2018-12-10, 22:38

Iván wrote:
Vlürch wrote:...but judging by this video, it does sound quite a lot like Portuguese and not at all cecillified or grumped, and surprisingly it actually sounds nice. And then, in this video, it sounds a lot more like Spanish with less cecillification than expected and some grumping. In this one, it also sounds a lot like Spanish but "stiffer" and with more grumping.

I just want to point out that the girl from the first video speaks Catalan as it is spoken in Mallorca.

To me it sounds somewhere halfway between Spanish and Italian, and if I hadn't already been told what language it was, I think I would have guessed one of the Romance minority languages of Italy.
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby IpseDixit » 2018-12-10, 23:58

Johanna wrote:
Iván wrote:
Vlürch wrote:...but judging by this video, it does sound quite a lot like Portuguese and not at all cecillified or grumped, and surprisingly it actually sounds nice. And then, in this video, it sounds a lot more like Spanish with less cecillification than expected and some grumping. In this one, it also sounds a lot like Spanish but "stiffer" and with more grumping.

I just want to point out that the girl from the first video speaks Catalan as it is spoken in Mallorca.

To me it sounds somewhere halfway between Spanish and Italian


This is a bit weird for me to read because neither Spanish nor Italian has [ə~ɐ] which is quite predominant in Catalan.

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Johanna » 2018-12-11, 1:01

IpseDixit wrote:
Johanna wrote:
Iván wrote:
Vlürch wrote:...but judging by this video, it does sound quite a lot like Portuguese and not at all cecillified or grumped, and surprisingly it actually sounds nice. And then, in this video, it sounds a lot more like Spanish with less cecillification than expected and some grumping. In this one, it also sounds a lot like Spanish but "stiffer" and with more grumping.

I just want to point out that the girl from the first video speaks Catalan as it is spoken in Mallorca.

To me it sounds somewhere halfway between Spanish and Italian

This is a bit weird for me to read because neither Spanish nor Italian has [ə~ɐ] which is quite predominant in Catalan.

But a bunch of other Romance languages do, including some that a lot of Italians consider mere dialects of the national language. Not to mention that as a native speaker of one Germanic language and a fluent speaker of another, that kind of vowel reduction hardly even registers.

It was more about the general prosody and where you hear what sibilants. Also, I've come across more than one Italian speaker who've nasalized their vowels in the same position this Catalan speaker does.

I did say "somewhere halfway" not "perfectly halfway" ;)
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Surgeon » 2018-12-11, 10:38

Catalan is great. And Basque too. A few weeks ago I saw a trailer for Errementari and I was like: "It sounds like Spanish, but how come I dont understand a word of it. "

Anyway Ive messed around with some Lithuanian and Greek lately. Lithuanian is cool. I really like the song Po dangum (under the sky) by Monika Linkyte. Modern Greek is not as cool as Classical, but I guess its alright. Especially learning about words I already know (katharo - clean, zoo- animal, anthropos - human) .

I also managed to speak some Mandarin to a couple of Beijing welders at work and was surprised they had understood me at all. It was a struggle, but the pronunciation is not as bad as in Vietnamese. I even got two Yuxi (Hongtashan) cigs from Mr. Su.

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby linguoboy » 2018-12-12, 17:42

Surgeon wrote:Catalan is great. And Basque too. A few weeks ago I saw a trailer for Errementari and I was like: "It sounds like Spanish, but how come I dont understand a word of it. "

Historically the cadence of Basque was completely different, but with widespread bilingualism, most speakers have come to adopt the intonation patterns of Spanish.

Every once and a while, when I mention to a Spanish-speaker that I speak Catalan, they'll say something like, "It's just like Spanish" or "It's a dialect of Spanish, right?" When they do that, I say, "Quan parlo el català amb castellanoparlants, no m'enténen" and that shuts them right up.
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Vlürch » 2018-12-13, 0:14

Iván wrote:I just want to point out that the girl from the first video speaks Catalan as it is spoken in Mallorca. I still remember how puzzled I was the first time I heard someone speaking it. Luckily I rapidly got used to it since most of my friends at university are from there. I sometimes struggle speaking my own Catalan when I'm with them and I end up using their words as well. I personally love Mallorcan.

So, is it an appropriate generalisation that Mallorcan Catalan is less cecillified* and grumped** than (some) other dialects? It does seem like that based on that one video and the Wikipedia article, at least.

*Apparently that's not the correct term at all, but I'm not sure what is. I mean the use of [β θ ð ɣ] or similar lenition, not exclusively ceceo or whatever.

**I know this isn't a linguistic term at all, but I mean the kind of "French sound" as a result of intonation and nasal vowels like [ɑ̃ ɛ̃], etc.
IpseDixit wrote:I don't know his political views, didn't really want to waste my time researching into it. :) I don't even know whether he's an independentist (chances are high though, I guess).

Oh, ok.
IpseDixit wrote:And anyways, left-wingers are fully capable of saying BS stuff too.

True, and actually I shouldn't be weirded out since I'm a left-winger and half of what I say is bullshit. I mean, I just can't shake my belief in some kind of ancient Ural-Altaic relation and the Tengri-Dingir connection, etc... but in my opinion that's different from clearly anti-scientific "theories" since they're at least theoretically possible in a bunch of different ways, while Latin coming from Sardinian or Sumerian coming from Turkish, etc. would require time travel and a total disregard for the chicken and egg... :para:
linguoboy wrote:when I mention to a Spanish-speaker that I speak Catalan, they'll say something like, "It's just like Spanish" or "It's a dialect of Spanish, right?"

Do only Spanish-speakers from Spain have those misconceptions/biases, or also ones from (Latin) America?

IpseDixit

Re: Random language thread 6

Postby IpseDixit » 2018-12-13, 0:46

Vlürch wrote:while Latin coming from Sardinian or Sumerian coming from Turkish, etc. would require time travel and a total disregard for the chicken and egg... :para:


IIUC, his idea is that Latin was created from the Sardinian spoken at that time.

This is what he says:

<<Latin was not a spoken language, Latin was essentially a written language. In ancient times, a common Latin language was created, and that's the Latin that we know nowadays. Common Latin was created using Sardinian as its base.>>

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Johanna » 2018-12-13, 18:19

linguoboy wrote:Every once and a while, when I mention to a Spanish-speaker that I speak Catalan, they'll say something like, "It's just like Spanish" or "It's a dialect of Spanish, right?" When they do that, I say, "Quan parlo el català amb castellanoparlants, no m'enténen" and that shuts them right up.

I can understand that but probably only because I also studied French.

Also, someone should ask them whether Norwegian is simply a Swedish dialect... :twisted:
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby IpseDixit » 2018-12-13, 18:30

Johanna wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Every once and a while, when I mention to a Spanish-speaker that I speak Catalan, they'll say something like, "It's just like Spanish" or "It's a dialect of Spanish, right?" When they do that, I say, "Quan parlo el català amb castellanoparlants, no m'enténen" and that shuts them right up.

I can understand that but probably only because I also studied French.

Also, someone should ask them whether Norwegian is simply a Swedish dialect... :twisted:


Don't you all speak German?

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby linguoboy » 2018-12-13, 18:32

IpseDixit wrote:
Johanna wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Every once and a while, when I mention to a Spanish-speaker that I speak Catalan, they'll say something like, "It's just like Spanish" or "It's a dialect of Spanish, right?" When they do that, I say, "Quan parlo el català amb castellanoparlants, no m'enténen" and that shuts them right up.

I can understand that but probably only because I also studied French.

Also, someone should ask them whether Norwegian is simply a Swedish dialect... :twisted:

Don't you all speak German?

Don't be silly, only Germans speak German. But I hear that Austrian is really close to German. I think only the Aboriginals speak it any more though.
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