Random language thread 6

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby linguoboy » 2021-02-23, 19:31

The BBC, for instance, publishes news in a wide range of languages, including Chinese: https://www.bbc.com/zhongwen/simp. It also allows you to toggle between Simplified and Traditional. I'm sure some other publications do, too.
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Antea » 2021-02-23, 19:50

Do someone know if people from Pakistan are specially interested in learning Farsi? and if so, is there a special reason, like economic, bussiness or cultural? :hmm:

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-02-23, 20:21

Yes, I think lots of people are interested for cultural reasons. I think you can find this to a lesser extent among Indians as well.

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Yasna » 2021-02-23, 21:25

dEhiN wrote:Could you find news sites that aren't specifically Chinese but have Chinese versions of the articles? I can't find the site now, but I've come across European news sites that will display the same article in multiple (European) languages. Perhaps something similar exists for Chinese?

I try to avoid translated material. It doesn't provide me with enough vocabulary and information relevant to the target language country and culture. Translation also tends to make the language of the text less challenging.

linguoboy wrote:The BBC, for instance, publishes news in a wide range of languages, including Chinese: https://www.bbc.com/zhongwen/simp. It also allows you to toggle between Simplified and Traditional. I'm sure some other publications do, too.

I have issues with this kind of news site too. They tend to have some combination of too many translated articles, credulity vis a vis any anti-CCP rumor, too much host country news, and not enough target language country content. One site I find tolerable is Duowei News, but they seem to self-censor a bit despite being based in NYC.

You can tell I've been spoiled for choice in the media of my earlier target languages. :)
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Saim » 2021-02-23, 21:25

Antea wrote:Do someone know if people from Pakistan are specially interested in learning Farsi? and if so, is there a special reason, like economic, bussiness or cultural? :hmm:


I'd say mainly cultural. It's associated with high-brow Muslim culture and especially poetry (it was the language of the court for all of the Indian Muslim dynasties as far as I'm aware, as well as for some non-Muslim polities like the Maratha and Sikh Confederacies). It's also the source of a massive amount of loanwords for most of the languages of the northern and especially northwestern parts of the subcontinent.
Last edited by Saim on 2021-02-24, 11:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby dEhiN » 2021-02-24, 5:06

Saim wrote:
Antea wrote:Do someone know if people from Pakistan are specially interested in learning Farsi? and if so, is there a special reason, like economic, bussiness or cultural? :hmm:


I'd say mainly cultural. It's associated with high-brow Muslim culture and especially poetry (it was the language of the court for all of the Indian Muslim dynasties as far as I'm aware, as well as for some non-Muslim polities like the Maratha and Sikh Confederacies). It's also the source of a massive amount for loanwords in most of the languages of the northern and especially northwestern parts of the subcontinent.

What about Urdu? Has Farsi been a source of loanwords for Urdu? Or is it more that Classical Arabic / MSA has influenced simultaneously Urdu and Farsi?
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-02-24, 7:13

dEhiN wrote:What about Urdu? Has Farsi been a source of loanwords for Urdu?

Gosh, has it ever! For most other languages of the Indian subcontinent as well. There are also Pakistani (and, to a lesser extent, Indian) songs in Persian, as well as some ethnic minorities who speak Persian natively (at least due to refugees immigrating from Afghanistan). Pakistani singers also sometimes do covers of Afghan songs in Dari (i.e. Persian). Apart from one instance of the native possessive particle (necessary to preserve rhyme and I suppose rhythm), every single morpheme in the national anthem of Pakistan is Persian:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5uSpWG-_8U
(Nizam-e-sarzameen-e-pak doesn't rhyme with the next line quwat-e-ukhuwat-e-awam and also sounds kind of weird to sing to the tune of that line, so it became Pak sarzameen ka nizam. I'm not sure why the author picked Pak sarzameen instead of sarzameen-e-pak, maybe to avoid associations with this song that was the previous national anthem, which was written by a Hindu at the government's direct request and of course had way more native Indo-Aryan words:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVEHisQ1TfM).

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Saim » 2021-02-24, 12:02

dEhiN wrote:
Saim wrote:
Antea wrote:Do someone know if people from Pakistan are specially interested in learning Farsi? and if so, is there a special reason, like economic, bussiness or cultural? :hmm:


I'd say mainly cultural. It's associated with high-brow Muslim culture and especially poetry (it was the language of the court for all of the Indian Muslim dynasties as far as I'm aware, as well as for some non-Muslim polities like the Maratha and Sikh Confederacies). It's also the source of a massive amount for loanwords in most of the languages of the northern and especially northwestern parts of the subcontinent.

What about Urdu? Has Farsi been a source of loanwords for Urdu? Or is it more that Classical Arabic / MSA has influenced simultaneously Urdu and Farsi?


Yes, absolutely, Urdu has one of the highest amounts of Persian loans of any Indian language, if not the highest (don’t know enough about Pashto, Balochi or Kashmiri to say, but I’d say that Urdu has more Persian loans than Punjabi or Sindhi). Traditionally Arabic loans entered Urdu through Persian.

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Antea » 2021-02-24, 15:12

Thanks for the answers. As I am learning Farsi from some time now, I noticed that in conversation groups there are a lot of people from Pakistan who also wanted to learn Farsi, and I didn't realise why there was so much interest. But yes, I now see that there a lot of cultural influences between them.

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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby dEhiN » 2021-02-24, 16:55

Antea wrote:Thanks for the answers. As I am have been learning Farsi from for some time now, I have noticed that in conversation groups there are a lot of people from Pakistan who also wanted to learn Farsi, and I didn't realise why there was so much interest. But yes, I now see that there a lot of cultural influences between them.

The phrasing, "as I am learning X for some time now", works in colloquial speech, I think. At least, I feel like I've heard native English speakers use that sort of phrasing before. But I associate that with a native speaker who maybe didn't finish high school, or something like that. Also, since you wrote, "who also wanted", you need to say, "I have noticed". If you had used the present tense instead, "who also want", then you could say, "I noticed". Both of these tense/aspect combos convey the idea that the act of noticing started prior to the specific realization that there are people who want to learn Farsi.
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby linguoboy » 2021-02-24, 17:39

dEhiN wrote:
Antea wrote:Thanks for the answers. As I am have been learning Farsi from for some time now, I have noticed that in conversation groups there are a lot of people from Pakistan who also wanted to learn Farsi, and I didn't realise why there was so much interest. But yes, I now see that there a lot of cultural influences between them.

The phrasing, "as I am learning X for some time now", works in colloquial speech, I think. At least, I feel like I've heard native English speakers use that sort of phrasing before. But I associate that with a native speaker who maybe didn't finish high school, or something like that.

Wow, judgy! It works IMD (and, FWIW, not only did I attend college, I even gradgiated.)

dEhiN wrote:Also, since you wrote, "who also wanted", you need to say, "I have noticed". If you had used the present tense instead, "who also want", then you could say, "I noticed". Both of these tense/aspect combos convey the idea that the act of noticing started prior to the specific realization that there are people who want to learn Farsi.

The use of the perfect here is only mandatory in some dialects. For many speakers of American English (and not just those "who maybe didn't finish high school"), "I noticed" would pass without notice in that sentence.
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby dEhiN » 2021-02-24, 18:05

linguoboy wrote:Wow, judgy! It works IMD (and, FWIW, not only did I attend college, I even gradgiated.)

My apologies, I didn't mean to come across as judgy. I guess it's a dialectal thing then, since I even talked to another ULer before I posted that reply, and they live in a rural-ish area in the US and had never heard anyone use that phrasing either. But, I should've just left it at it's a colloquial speech thing, instead of adding any associations. In your dialect, would you say it's mostly a speech form, or would you find that in proper written texts (i.e., not social media or text speech)?

linguoboy wrote:The use of the perfect here is only mandatory in some dialects. For many speakers of American English (and not just those "who maybe didn't finish high school"), "I noticed" would pass without notice in that sentence.

That I didn't know. I know the use cases of the perfect differ between North American and British English, but I didn't realize they also differ within various (North) American dialects as well.
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby linguoboy » 2021-02-24, 19:34

dEhiN wrote:In your dialect, would you say it's mostly a speech form, or would you find that in proper written texts (i.e., not social media or text speech)?

I'm not really sure what you mean by "proper written texts". (For instance, published novels often contain some very colloquial speech; increasingly, so do essays and other nonfiction.) I would say it's primarily a spoken usage, yes.

dEhiN wrote:
linguoboy wrote:The use of the perfect here is only mandatory in some dialects. For many speakers of American English (and not just those "who maybe didn't finish high school"), "I noticed" would pass without notice in that sentence.

That I didn't know. I know the use cases of the perfect differ between North American and British English, but I didn't realize they also differ within various (North) American dialects as well.

Yeah, there are some significant differences within NAE, and it's as much generational as regional.
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Re: Random language thread 6

Postby Rí.na.dTeangacha » 2021-03-05, 20:30

Just had one of those moments when you realise you've been saying a word wrong for years. I always thought that when people in Portuguese say "I beat myself up about it" in the sense of feeling a sense of shame or embarassment after making a mistake that they were saying "Eu fico me martelizando", from "martelo" - "hammer", i.e. "I'm hammering myself". But they're actually saying "martirizando", "martírio" meaning "martyrdom", so they're "martyring" themselves.
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