Random language thread 6

[Saim]

No, bokmål means "book language" for a reason: It's a written version, not an oral one. There is no spoken standard, they just use their dialects. You just have to listen into a random programme on the Norwegian media and the variety is striking.

I understand that Bokmål is a written register. My point is that the language of newsreaders does tend to conform to the usage of the written register of a language, since they're essentially reading a prepared text aloud. Awrui said there's a 25% quota for Nynorsk on news reports, and as far as I know that's also a written register, so I was asking for clarification on what they meant.

[awrui]

No, bokmål means "book language" for a reason: It's a written version, not an oral one. There is no spoken standard, they just use their dialects. You just have to listen into a random programme on the Norwegian media and the variety is striking.

I understand that Bokmål is a written register. My point is that the language of newsreaders does tend to conform to the usage of the written register of a language, since they're essentially reading a prepared text aloud. Awrui said there's a 25% quota for Nynorsk on news reports, and as far as I know that's also a written register, so I was asking for clarification on what they meant.

The spoken language in news programmes is some form of dialect, but usually something closer to written language. How close they get to the written language depends on the news reader. Some just have an accent of that dialect, some speak proper dialect. Some speak proper bokmål or nynorsk. But nobody would be able to understand some weird dialect from the depths of Setesdal, so all news readers are somehow moderate in their use of language.
Written news (state news) are 25% nynorsk. That includes subtitles for TV news. Read aloud, it's a bit more fluent.
But when they speak freely, like a talk show or morning programme or so, people speak their dialect. Then it's only nynorsk or bokmål when they read something aloud. I'm not sure if there is a quota on that, but I don't think so. Most national stations and papers try to get some variation, but local news and station often just broadcast in their local dialect.

[md0]

I wasn't prepared by how much German speakers (admittedly, mostly DaF speakers, but which much higher fluency than me) would be not understanding and/or correcting my /ç/ in ich-laut. I maintain that /ç/ is a native phoneme for me and I use it appropriately in German. The people who correct me pronounce it as /ɕ~ʃ/

[h34]

I wasn't prepared by how much German speakers (admittedly, mostly DaF speakers, but which much higher fluency than me) would be not understanding and/or correcting my /ç/ in ich-laut. I maintain that /ç/ is a native phoneme for me and I use it appropriately in German. The people who correct me pronounce it as /ɕ~ʃ/

That's surprising. It is sometimes pronounced like /ɕ/ in Berlin and south of Berlin (Leipzig, Dresden) and somewhere between /ɕ/ and /ʃ/ in some parts of western Germany (Cologne, Frankfurt) but I always thought /ç/ was understood anywhere. It is definitely the standard pronunciation.

[md0]

That's surprising. It is sometimes pronounced like /ɕ/ in Berlin and south of Berlin (Leipzig, Dresden) and somewhere between /ɕ/ and /ʃ/ in some parts of western Germany (Cologne, Frankfurt) but I always thought /ç/ was understood anywhere. It is definitely the standard pronunciation.

My working hypothesis is that since they are advanced learners or heritage speakers raised abroad, they have only been exposed to a few or one German dialects (their teachers' and parents' respectively). As far as I recall, native speakers who lived in Germany their entire life haven't commented on my pronunciation at all (they focus on my case endings).

[Antea]

Yesterday I discovered that in Finnish, the word "Jouluppukki", that I always had identified with Santa Claus, meant in fact the "Christmas goat", because in ancient times the tradition was that a goat brought the presents.

[Linguaphile]

Yesterday I discovered that in Finnish, the word "Jouluppukki", that I always had identified with Santa Claus, meant in fact the "Christmas goat", because in ancient times the tradition was that a goat brought the presents.

I thought it was that the goat took presents....




The Estonian version is näärisokk (but for Santa Claus there is Jõuluvana, the Old Man of Christmas; näärisokk is not Santa):

[linguoboy]

Yesterday I discovered that in Finnish, the word "Jouluppukki", that I always had identified with Santa Claus, meant in fact the "Christmas goat", because in ancient times the tradition was that a goat brought the presents.

In Cajun French, there is a figure called La Christine, who traditionally brought small gifts on New Year's Eve. Some families also had Papa Noël arrive on Christmas with larger gifts. And others merge the two tradition, having a mysterious figure arrive bringing gifts on Christmas but calling him or her "La Christine". To quote Cajun linguist and folklorist Amanda LaFleur, "Despite the use of the feminine definite article la, I’ve never heard anyone say specifically that la Christine exists in the popular Cajun imagination as a female character. In fact, at least one person I know from Louisiana told me that for him ‘la Christine’ was just how they said ‘Santa Claus’ in French."

[vijayjohn]

The Norwegian dialect situation is pretty interesting, though Wikipedia suggests that there is some sort of a standardized spoken variety in eastern Norway and, IIRC at the moment, also that dialect differences are reflected in written Norwegian as well.

Cool song! Now, can you translate the non-Urdu parts?

Probably not, but I can take a shot in the dark and try anyway!

(Urdu)

[ˈd͡ʒanɨ jɛˈɦi hɛ], [ˈʃanɨ jɛˈɦi hɛ],
This is our life, this is our grace,

[ɔɾ jɛˈɦi pɛhəˈt͡ʃan]:
And this is the one we know:

[həm hɛ̃ pakɪsˈt̪an].
We are Pakistan.

(Balochi)

[mɛ ʋəˈt̪ən paˈki ʋəˈt̪ən],
My country is a pure country,

[ˈkohɨ], [t̪əlaˈɾani ʋəˈt̪ən].
A country of mountains and cliffs.

[ˈsəɾɨ ˈsəbzɨ ˈbat̪e], [mɛ ʋəˈt̪ən],
May you be full of greenery, my land,

[ɪʃk̚ ˈt̪oki ʃaˈɾani ʋəˈt̪ən]!
Between the sides of my land!

[məe̯ d̪in o iˈmani ʋəˈt̪ən],
You are my religion and the faith of this country,

[ɛ ˈd͡ʒane d͡ʒaˈnane ʋəˈt̪ən]!
O my most beloved country!

[ɛ mɛ ˈd͡ʒane], [ɛ mɛ ˈʃane],
O my dear, o my grace,

[ɛ məˈje əɾˈman]!
O my soul!

(Sindhi)

[ʋəˈd̪ʱəɳɨ], [ˈd͡ʒamən̪d̪əɹ]. [keˈd̪a ˈsʊn̪d̪əɹ],
Ladle/saucepan, large knife, beautiful silly woman,

[ʃaɦɨ], [səˈt͡ʃəl], [əj], [aːhe kəˈlən̪d̪əɹ]!
Oh, Shah and Sachal are Qalandar (or qalandars?)!

[ˈpjaɾɨ mɔˈɦɔbbət̪ɨ ˈmənɨ d͡ʒe ˈən̪d̪əɹ].
Love and affection are inside the mind.

[moɦən d̪əˈɽo] [ʋəj], [keˈʈi ɦi ˈbən̪d̪əɹ]!
Oh, Mohenjo-Daro, the delta is a port.

[səɓɨ ʋəˈd̪ʱajɪɳɨ ˈmʊlkɨ d͡ʒʊˈmaɳ],
May the whole country grow together,

[ɛ əˈsã d͡ʒi d͡ʒan]!
O, our dear!

(Pashto)

[st̪a pə ˈhəɾə ˈlaɾa mʊŋ d̪ə ˈmine məˈʃaluŋ ˈnəgdu],
Near our torches of love on all of your paths,

[st̪a ˈhəɾa kuˈsɐkke mʊŋ d̪ə zɽuno səˈɾa zɽuŋ ˈnəgdu],
Near our hearts upon hearts that have all burned for you,

[jo bəl ˈləbɨ ˈd͡ʒaje gu muŋ d̪ə jo bəl na kʊɾˈban].
Nevertheless, nothing that we have said with our lips is a sacrifice.

(Punjabi)

[ɛ d̪ɪl ˈmət̪t̪ʰə ˈpʰʊllɨ gʊˈlabɨ kʰɪˈɽən]!
Oh, rose flowers blossoming in the middle of my heart!

[ɛ d̪ɪl ˈmɔsəm ˈd͡ʒənnət̪ɨ ˈnalɨ mɪˈlən]!
O heart, seasons meeting through heaven!

[saˈɖa ˈnile ˈmanɨ t̪e ˈd͡ʒane],
All going through blue skies,

[saˈɖa ˈsəbɨ d̪a maɳ]
All the pride of everything

(Shina - this part I'm probably completely bullshitting on)

[puri d̪uˈna t̪e ˈmuʂo nəj].
Such people do not exist in the whole world.

[wəˈt̪ən kʰuˈʃaʈi hə̃].
My country is happy.

[nɛ un ga ˈsuri ʃiˈɾi].
Those songs are not the tunes of poems.

[luʈ̚ pe d͡ʒɪn səˈnaʈi hə̃].
They are the struggle of folk culture.

[neke t̪u naŋga pəɾbət̪],
You take our mountain,

[gilgit̪ bəlt̪ɪsˈt̪an].
Gilgit-Baltistan.

(Gojri)

[həsɨˈd̪a ʋəsɨˈd̪a ɛsə ʋəˈt̪ənə ma səˈd̪a je ɾe̤ aˈbad̪]!
May this remain everlasting in such a country where one lives happily!

[d͡ʒɪt̪ɨˈna ˈhoʋe ɛsə t͡ʃəˈmənə ma], [ˈsəbɨ ˈhoʋe d̪ɪl ʃad̪].
However many people live on such grass, they will all be happy at heart.

[hã], [mɛ̃ ˈhoʋe alˈla ˈt̪ala ˈpṳ̃t͡ʃe ˈɪsɨ ki ʃan].
Yes, I will have reached the grace of Allah, the Most Exalted.

(Urdu again)

[əlˈla ˈsaji səd̪a səˈlamət̪ə pakɪsˈt̪anɨ ɾəˈɦe]!
May Allah always remain the shadow that protects Pakistan!

[ˈgʱəɾɨ ˈgʱəɾɨ χʊʃiˈjã], [ʃɛˈɦɛɾɨ ʃɛˈɦɛɾɨ mẽ həm nɔˈmanɨ ɾəˈɦe]!
May every house be full of happiness, and may we remain calm in every city!

[ˈhəɾɨ ˈd̪ɪlɨ ˈd͡ʒəgɨməgɨ], ˈ[həɾɨ ˈgʱəɾɨ ˈɾɛɦɨmət̪ɨ], [alˈla ka ɪnˈsan]
Every heart shining, every home comfortable, people of Allah

[linguoboy]

Before my year abroad, one of the instructors told me, "You'll reach a point where you'll begin to understand almost everything they say to you. Then the real test becomes can you understand what they say to each other." I kind of had a moment like that today while taking a virtual tour of the National Museum of Mexican Art in Spanish. I expected I understand a good chunk of what the guide was saying but not everything and was pleasantly surprised to be proven wrong. But then I noticed lots of gringo names among the other tourists and wondered if he wasn't making some accommodations to his speech on our behalf. Sure enough, as we went on, I picked up on him providing English-language glosses for terms like "cempasúchil" or "grabado". To be fair, he was doing the same for English terms used on objects in the exhibition--until he went off script. One of the participants asked a question in English in chat and he replied at length in English with no translation, making it clear who he considered his audience to be.

So still a success, just not as glowing as I perceived it to be initially.

[vijayjohn]

My newest co-worker is a British guy who uses a lot of Britain-specific slang without having any idea that these were specifically British terms. This has thrown me off a few times and completely confounds my Thai-American co-worker. So far, I have learned the words rota and moreish from him.

[Yasna]

How far back in time could you go and still communicate using modern Korean? It gets really difficult by the 15th to 16th century.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGDDyMWHJtg

[vijayjohn]

Malayalee kids these days apparently can't even understand simple puns from my parents' childhood without having the joke spelled out for them.

[dEhiN]

I just had possibly my first "false friends" moment from one L2 language to another! I was doing a Duolingo Romanian lesson and the sentence to translate to English was:

Bărbatul bea cafea sau ceai. "The man drinks coffee or tea"

In this case, sau is one of the Romanian words used for "or". However, I was chatting with my girlfriend while writing the translation and so I equated the word with French sauf, which means "except", and so I translated the whole sentence as "The man drinks coffee not tea." I'm not sure if that's exactly a "false friend" moment, but it's exciting for me nonetheless because subconsciously my French influenced my Romanian.

[vijayjohn]

Bahador Alast contacted me yesterday on Facebook for help making a video comparing Romani with an Indo-Aryan language.

[oho]

An example sentence in my Slovene book:

The kittens were drowned in the bucket

...mmm

[OldBoring]

I just had possibly my first "false friends" moment from one L2 language to another! I was doing a Duolingo Romanian lesson and the sentence to translate to English was:

Bărbatul bea cafea sau ceai. "The man drinks coffee or tea"

In this case, sau is one of the Romanian words used for "or". However, I was chatting with my girlfriend while writing the translation and so I equated the word with French sauf, which means "except", and so I translated the whole sentence as "The man drinks coffee not tea." I'm not sure if that's exactly a "false friend" moment, but it's exciting for me nonetheless because subconsciously my French influenced my Romanian.

When I read the sentence, I also thought about the French sauf!
Staying 20 days in Constanta in 2008 didn't let me learn this word.

Bahador Alast contacted me yesterday on Facebook for help making a video comparing Romani with an Indo-Aryan language.

Nice! How do you know this YouTuber? I see most of the videos in that channel are about similarities between languages. I often watch another channel with similar videos: Ecolinguist (also a playlist in Bahador Alast's channel).

An example sentence in my Slovene book:

The kittens were drowned in the bucket

...mmm

Me cojoni! Peggio de Duolingo!

[linguoboy]

The English actor Edward Woodward (best known to US audiences as the star of The Equalizer) has a role in the two-hour Welsh-language television drama Tân ar y Comin. Apparently he was the only non-Welsh actor in it. I wish I could find a clip from it.

[dEhiN]

The English actor Edward Woodward (best known to US audiences as the star of The Equalizer) has a role in the two-hour Welsh-language television drama Tân ar y Comin. Apparently he was the only non-Welsh actor in it. I wish I could find a clip from it.

Do you know if he speaks Welsh, or spoke Welsh in the show? I believe there are some actors who don't speak the foreign language their character is supposed to speak, but will be taught their lines through IPA just enough to memorize it.

[linguoboy]

Do you know if he speaks Welsh, or spoke Welsh in the show? I believe there are some actors who don't speak the foreign language their character is supposed to speak, but will be taught their lines through IPA just enough to memorize it.

As far as I know, he spoke no Welsh. According to Wikipedia he required "special coaching" to say his lines, but I'm not sure of the source for that.

(This isn't linguistic, but I also didn't realise he'd done musical theatre. He was quite a good singer and could be very animated when he wanted to be!)