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suruvaippa wrote:I had a good laugh out of this list of Finnish "not the brightest tool in the crayon box" equivalents, my favorite being ei ole kaikki mummot bingossa = "(Name of idiot) hasn't got all their grannies at the bingo"
Linguaphile wrote:English: twelve point oh five or twelve point zero five
Or four and a quarter, without saying the word "dollars".
vijayjohn wrote:Or four and a quarter, without saying the word "dollars".
This I just don't say, though.
vijayjohn wrote:Linguaphile wrote:English: twelve point oh five or twelve point zero five
I forgot about point. Thanks!
vijayjohn wrote:Linguaphile wrote:Or four and a quarter, without saying the word "dollars".
This I just don't say, though.
Q9: Do I have to use pronouns I’m unfamiliar or uncomfortable with (e.g., neopronouns like xe, zir, ne... )?
Yes, if those are stated by the individual.
Q10: What if I believe it is grammatically incorrect to use some pronouns (e.g. they/them to refer to a single person)?
If they are the pronouns stated by the individual, you must respect that and use them. Grammar concerns do not override a person’s right to self identify.
md0 wrote:This is pretty much the only forum I trust to open the following discussion and not be lumped together with reactionaries, so here goes [...]
Osias wrote:I wrote some answers on SE sites and can't remember ever needing to use personal pronouns.
md0 wrote:Neo-pronouns have it especially bad, because they are competing into a near impossible field, ie a closed class. There have been attempts to make them catch up for one or two centuries already, and there was an explosion of them in the last half a century, but the chances of them making it into the mental grammar of English speakers are extremely slim.
md0 wrote:The use of neo-pronouns or gender-specific pronouns (like he and she) where stated is a courtesy that can be strongly encouraged, but not mandated.
but then I realised that the main reason I was against them was uncertainty on how to pronounce them and the worry that mispronouncing them opens up an even bigger minefield than plain misgendering. I mean, people who state their neologistic pronouns rarely use IPA to indicate the pronunciation, so for example xe could be /k͡siː/, /ziː/, /ʃiː/ or something completely different.
However, what if they consider singular they to be misgendering? Wouldn't calling them them after they tell you to call them xer instead be just as bad as calling them him/her after they state that they prefer to be called them?
I'd refuse to use somebody's stated pronouns if they're either very long and/or just plain not pronouns (ie. are common nouns). This might change in the future if it becomes more common to accept them, but at least for the foreseeable future I would for example never refer to somebody by derogatory epithets even if those were their stated pronouns; while I nowadays err on the side of caution and assume even the most outlandish pronouns are not trolling, there is still a line that I think shouldn't be crossed unless there's a consensus that it should be.
I'd say I agree, but if that was the case, the same could be extended to names and that doesn't sit right with me. Like, there are obviously more names than pronouns on several orders of magnitude, yet most people are just fine with calling somebody by their name even if it's not a common one, or using their nickname/pseudonym/username/whatever where the use of legal names isn't necessary or preferred.
I don't think so, and I think the same applies to pronouns and ties into people's right to self-determination.
md0 wrote:but then I realised that the main reason I was against them was uncertainty on how to pronounce them and the worry that mispronouncing them opens up an even bigger minefield than plain misgendering. I mean, people who state their neologistic pronouns rarely use IPA to indicate the pronunciation, so for example xe could be /k͡siː/, /ziː/, /ʃiː/ or something completely different.
I'm not sure if that concern was a highly ranked one for people other than a self-selecting group such us language nerds.
Car wrote:md0 wrote:but then I realised that the main reason I was against them was uncertainty on how to pronounce them and the worry that mispronouncing them opens up an even bigger minefield than plain misgendering. I mean, people who state their neologistic pronouns rarely use IPA to indicate the pronunciation, so for example xe could be /k͡siː/, /ziː/, /ʃiː/ or something completely different.
I'm not sure if that concern was a highly ranked one for people other than a self-selecting group such us language nerds.
No, but it's one for me. The other is the different case forms of those new pronouns. Even in English, pronouns are one of the few instances where you can see remnants of cases, but how do you inflect xe, to use that example? Obviously, that's more of a problem in languages that still have a (more or less) fully fledged case system, but still. Do you just treat it as if it was a proper name?
Car wrote:No, but it's one for me. The other is the different case forms of those new pronouns. Even in English, pronouns are one of the few instances where you can see remnants of cases, but how do you inflect xe, to use that example? Obviously, that's more of a problem in languages that still have a (more or less) fully fledged case system, but still. Do you just treat it as if it was a proper name?
md0 wrote:I'm not sure if that concern was a highly ranked one for people other than a self-selecting group such us language nerds.
md0 wrote:It cannot be misgendering if both are unvalued for gender.
md0 wrote:I think that trolling around pronouns is pretty transparent. No-one acting in good faith has asked for them to be referred as "attack helicopter".
md0 wrote:I don't think that it can automatically be extended to proper names. I will have to be convinced of that, since pronouns and names are very different things by definition and usage.
md0 wrote:There's perhaps a mission creep happening
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