Random language thread 5

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby OldBoring » 2018-05-04, 13:08

Portuguese sounds exotic to me too, and I'm a Romance language speaker... and I speak some Portuguese too...

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Luís » 2018-05-04, 14:00

Well, by definition it can't sound exotic to me, though... :P
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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby dEhiN » 2018-05-04, 16:22

rmanoj wrote:Btw it's just நான் ஒரு மனிதன் 'I one man' as far as I'm aware, unless you want to say 'I, a man, exist'. இரு isn't really a copula, it's an existential 'be'.

I didn't realize இரு is an existential 'be'. And I always thought you could still use the verb with A = B statements, but you just didn't have to and so most of the time it's dropped. Colloquially I would say நான் ஒரு மனிதன் (though I'm used to மனிசன், which I guess is a synonym?).

Luís wrote:Well, by definition it can't sound exotic to me, though... :P

Have you ever tried listening to Portuguese for how it sounds, the way a non-native would hear it? I've tried that a few times with English songs by focusing on the phonemes and turning off my comprehension ability.
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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby linguoboy » 2018-05-04, 16:32

dEhiN wrote:Have you ever tried listening to Portuguese for how it sounds, the way a non-native would hear it? I've tried that a few times with English songs by focusing on the phonemes and turning off my comprehension ability.

I love the answers I get when I ask non-native speakers what English sounds like to them.
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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby dEhiN » 2018-05-04, 16:37

linguoboy wrote:I love the answers I get when I ask non-native speakers what English sounds like to them.

What do they say? I've never tried asking them that!
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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Luís » 2018-05-04, 16:52

dEhiN wrote:Have you ever tried listening to Portuguese for how it sounds, the way a non-native would hear it? I've tried that a few times with English songs by focusing on the phonemes and turning off my comprehension ability.


I can't really "turn off" my comprehension ability.

I guess non-natives will say different things depending on their native language and other languages they know/speak. In general they tend to say EP sounds like Russian or some other Slavic language.
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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby rmanoj » 2018-05-04, 18:06

dEhiN wrote:
rmanoj wrote:Btw it's just நான் ஒரு மனிதன் 'I one man' as far as I'm aware, unless you want to say 'I, a man, exist'. இரு isn't really a copula, it's an existential 'be'.

I didn't realize இரு is an existential 'be'. And I always thought you could still use the verb with A = B statements, but you just didn't have to and so most of the time it's dropped. Colloquially I would say நான் ஒரு மனிதன் (though I'm used to மனிசன், which I guess is a synonym?).

மனிசன் I guess is a form that is closer to the original Sanskrit, manushya. I think the more Tamilized form may be preferred, at least in Indian Tamil.

The usages of இரு are quite complex. For example, you can use it with adverbs and such to say things like 'I am well' (with the adverbialiser ஆக—நான் நன்றாக இருக்கிறேன்), but you can't use it, and don't need it, for a noun=noun statement.
Again, I have to add the disclaimer that I am no authority on this, and you should check with your Tamil tutor or other native speakers.

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Car » 2018-05-05, 20:41

Karavinka, could you comment on that article?

http://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/ ... n-speaking
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Karavinka » 2018-05-05, 21:35

Car wrote:Karavinka, could you comment on that article?

http://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/ ... n-speaking


I watched the broadcast as well, and I was under impression that Kim Jong-un was trying to mediate his dialect to conform to the Standard North Korean, which is also based on Seoulite.

At the accent level, I don't think there is any strong foreign influence other than he's trying to speak more neutrally. When the outsiders think this propagandizing tone is the representative of North Korean dialect, they are sadly mistaken.

When Kim presents cold noodles he brought from Pyongyang, he says he brought from far -- and then corrects himself, "I shouldn't say it's from a far place", and that was the moment when his Pyong'an accent was more pronounced.

The article, as a whole, feels a bit bullshit though. Say... if anything, the language is getting more divergent, shouldn't the newer generation have more problems than the older ones?
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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Car » 2018-05-06, 19:39

Thank you for your reply.

Yes, that definitely didn't make sense, that was one of the reasons why I was curious what you had to say.
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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby IpseDixit » 2018-05-10, 8:45

I hate it when the Russian letter ё is translitared as ë. Why on earth would you do that?

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Vlürch » 2018-05-11, 15:48

I visited a bookshop in Itäkeskus for the first time in like a year with my mum and left with two dictionaries: Latin and Mandarin. It's really nice that there are now Latin dictionaries there (there were two different ones; the one I bought and one that was more expensive but seemed to have less words, which is weird), because before they simply didn't have them and AFAICRC even implied that they're not allowed to have any since they're not a university or church (or something like that, which made no sense to me).

I went there with the intention of buying a Spanish dictionary, but decided to get a Mandarin one instead. There were a lot of different dictionaries, and obviously I'd have wanted to buy all of them, but it's not like I could afford that; there was one copy of one Hungarian dictionary left for 45€ (another one was cheaper, IIRC 30€) and only one copy of one Arabic dictionary which was 90€, which is fucking insane. :?

Of the same "series" that the Mandarin one I got, which all cost 10€, were also at least Estonian, Russian, Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese and German (I considered whether I should've also gotten that Spanish one instead of the other more expensive one I first looked at, but figured it would've ended up being too expensive), as well as Turkish, Greek and Thai, but I already had those. There may have also been a Hungarian one and some others.

The Latin one was 30€ and the Mandarin one 10€, so overall not that expensive (I also got Stephen King's It for 12€). About 50€ for three books seems like a bit much at least to me, but then again, compared to the Arabic and Hungarian ones, it wasn't that bad and I know especially new books can cost way more.

Something that really surprised me, which will probably get me labelled as racist (even more than I already have been), is just how many immigrants there were. I mean, the whole place was crowded (not the bookshop, though; that was almost empty), but at times I literally couldn't see a single person who looked even remotely "white". Like, some Finns don't look "white" either (my aunt being a prime example of that; she's been told to "go back to whatever ountry she came from" by random assholes, even though she's as Finnish as the assholes who told her that (if not more)), but I don't mean just having yellowish light brownish skin and maybe an epicanthic fold or two or whatever, but actually black.

What really confused me was that like half of the Somalis I overheard spoke Finnish. Before now, I don't think I'd ever heard Somalis speak Finnish in groups that seemed to be made up of only Somalis. Of course, it's possible that that's because they weren't all Somalis, but maybe darker-skinned Arabs or even lighter-skinned Africans, but I think they tended to be Somalis. All of the ones who spoke Finnish were groups of young women, though, so maybe that has something to do with it.

Tons of Arabs, too, to the point where I don't think it's an exaggeration to say I heard Arabic spoken about as much as Finnish... which... I mean, I don't consider myself racist (although I do have a problem with the human rights situations in pretty much every Arab country), but this is Finland... :para:

Of course, there were Russian- and Swedish-speakers too, but that's nothing new or anything to get shocked by; I don't think I heard Swedish more than once, though, and Russian twice or thrice; I couldn't be sure if what one group of people spoke was Russian, Ukrainian or some other Slavic language.

There were also some Asian-looking men who spoke a language I didn't recognise. They were walking in the opposite direction from me so I only heard them for like ten seconds, so it's not like I got a good sample of whatever it was; I honestly have no idea, but it could've been Burmese or something since I have no confidence in my ability to tell it apart from other Sino-Tibetan languages except Sinitic ones and Tibetan; I'm fairly certain it wasn't any variety of Chinese or Tibetan, at least, but that's not much help in narrowing it down.

...also, a woman who was about my age stared at me for like five seconds with an expression that looked like she was judging me. I was kinda creeped out until I later realised that we went to the same school and I even briefly had a crush on her at one point when we were 13 or 14, so obviously it was just that she recognised me. :P
IpseDixit wrote:I hate it when the Russian letter ё is translitared as ë. Why on earth would you do that?

Same.

As for Portuguese being "exotic"... well, at least Brazilian Portuguese definitely is, and not just as a meme. I'd never be able to recognise it, or even Porgutuese Portugeuse in most cases, even though it's one of those languages that are immediately recognisable in writing (at least in longer texts) due to the presence of <ç> and <ã> (or short texts that jsut happen to have words with them), and often partially understandable due to its common words and grammar with Spanish and French (even withmy low level in them). In speech, though, I just... I don't know, it sounds like a weird Slavic-Romance hybrid but in the opposite way from Romanian (which, like I've said before, I used to think was a Slavic language :oops: ), and that one dialect that someone here once linked a video in sounded like a Kurdish-Turkish-Slavic-???? mix that I'd have never guessed was actually a Romance language; I think it was from the Azores?

Sorry for posting tired again, if I made weird typos or broke sentences or whatever. I haven't been able to sleep well enough all week thanks to my faers of getting a wisdom tooth removed in less than two weeks, so yeah. Maybe there should be something like a "don't post when you're tired" similarly to "don't drive when you're drunk". :lol:

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby JackFrost » 2018-05-12, 15:25

OldBoring wrote:Portuguese sounds exotic to me too, and I'm a Romance language speaker... and I speak some Portuguese too...

Well, to me as a Romance speaker, Portuguese is an example that French isn't really that much of an oddball for a Romance language. Nothing too exotic about it.
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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Ciarán12 » 2018-05-12, 19:46

JackFrost wrote:Well, to me as a Romance speaker, Portuguese is an example that French isn't really that much of an oddball for a Romance language. Nothing too exotic about it.


I think it depends on the kind of Portuguese. PT-BR doesn't sound too out-of-the-ordinary for a romance language (well, the nasal vowels are kind of odd, but that's about it). PT-PT and Azorean especially are pretty crazy.

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby IpseDixit » 2018-05-13, 10:36

JackFrost wrote:Well, to me as a Romance speaker, Portuguese is an example that French isn't really that much of an oddball for a Romance language. Nothing too exotic about it.


And if you look at the languages of Northern Italy, French will look even less of an oddball.

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-05-13, 18:48

Car wrote: :lol: Can't say I've ever seen anyone with a language learning book, apart from at university.

There was a time when somebody who happened to be in the same workplace as me was trying to work through some kind of coursebook(s?) for Mandarin Chinese and would talk with a native speaker about problems she had with understanding the course material.
linguoboy wrote:He's fluent in Japanese, so I googled "ways to say 'no' in Japanese" and responded with "Chotto..." His response was "that's cool", showing that he totally grasped my meaning ("I feel awkward saying 'no' but I am saying it").

Księżycowy has used chotto with me before. :P
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rmanoj wrote:
dEhiN wrote:I know in Tamil, there's no verb "to have" either, and it's expressed using the dative pronoun along with conjugating the copula for what we in English would consider the object being possessed. For example, "I have money" would be எனக்கு காசு இருக்கிறது /enəkːɯ kaːsɯ iɾɯkː(i)rəd̪ɯ/ (lit. for-me money is). Compare "I am a man" which would be நான் ஒரு மனின் இருக்கிறேன் /enəkːɯ oɾu manisən iɾɯkː(i)ɾeːn/ (lit. I a man am). I thought it was weird when I first encountered it, but that's because it was the first example of indirect possession I'd encountered. I wonder if getting used to Tamil is why it never surprised me when I learned about ter in Portuguese for possession?

Malayalam has the same sort of thing, naturally, although we would use the verb ഉണ്ട് (உண்டு) rather than இரு.

Yeah, apart from the fact that we happen to use a different verb root (and don't have suffixes on the verb that indicate the subject), the construction we have in Malayalam is exactly the same. In fact, I can't seem to think of a language anywhere in South Asia that lacks such a construction except Pashto and Dari.
dEhiN wrote:
linguoboy wrote:I love the answers I get when I ask non-native speakers what English sounds like to them.

What do they say? I've never tried asking them that!

I'm sure I've mentioned some examples before. My dad says whenever American missionaries arrived in Kerala to preach (in English), it would sound like [wɑʈ̚sə wɑʈ̚sə bum] and [waːʃ mʊʃ koːʃ mʊʃ]. A guy from Mallorca I went to grad school with once said that when Americans talk, they sound like they have gum in their mouths, and when British people talk, they sound like they have a muffin in their mouths.
IpseDixit wrote:I hate it when the Russian letter ё is translitared as ë. Why on earth would you do that?

So you don't have to decide between <eo> and <io> and <yo> and <e> and...?
Vlürch wrote: that one dialect that someone here once linked a video in sounded like a Kurdish-Turkish-Slavic-???? mix that I'd have never guessed was actually a Romance language; I think it was from the Azores?

Nope, Brazil. (You do mean the one with the guy yelling at another guy in the "identify the language" thread, right?).

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby księżycowy » 2018-05-13, 19:02

vijayjohn wrote:Księżycowy has used chotto with me before. :P

ちょっと!

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Vlürch » 2018-05-14, 17:35

vijayjohn wrote:
Vlürch wrote: that one dialect that someone here once linked a video in sounded like a Kurdish-Turkish-Slavic-???? mix that I'd have never guessed was actually a Romance language; I think it was from the Azores?

Nope, Brazil. (You do mean the one with the guy yelling at another guy in the "identify the language" thread, right?).

I don't think so; all I remember of it is that an old guy was talking at a dock in front of a boat or something. I can't find it now, though, but IIRC it was posted by someone as an example of how weird Portuguese dialects can sound.

~

My mum got me the book Ihmiskielen ihmeitä (wonders of human language) by Hannu Reime, which I started reading immediately... and cringing soon after. The guy apparently doesn't know that tonal languages exist, since according to him one of the main differences between speech and music is that pitch makes no difference in the former. He also stated that when reversed, speech isn't recognisable as speech and reversed music sounds like random noise. It's not like even the Beatles were already using reversed recordings... and his other comparisons of speech and music are equally annoying: that musical improvisation is never truly improvised (and his only example is jazz; yeah, in jazz it's usually based around a given "core" of a scale and/or rhythm, etc. but even then not necessarily always), unlike speech, which is always "hurr durr so random" or whatever, etc. :roll:

Also, all of it is giving me extremely Eurocentric vibes for some reason (although I'm only a few pages in, so that could just be the first impression) and all kinds of weird shit I already forgot and can't be arsed to read again because it made my head hurt. Something about universal grammar and imagination in every sentence, too (well, "every sentence" is an exaggeration, but yeah).

Then again, all of that could be just that the first chapter doesn't go in-depth at all and/or goes in depth later on in the chapter in regards to the stuff first mentioned. I really hope that the case because otherwise it'll be a cringathon to read the whole book.

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Luís » 2018-05-14, 19:41

Vlürch wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Vlürch wrote: that one dialect that someone here once linked a video in sounded like a Kurdish-Turkish-Slavic-???? mix that I'd have never guessed was actually a Romance language; I think it was from the Azores?

Nope, Brazil. (You do mean the one with the guy yelling at another guy in the "identify the language" thread, right?).

I don't think so; all I remember of it is that an old guy was talking at a dock in front of a boat or something. I can't find it now, though, but IIRC it was posted by someone as an example of how weird Portuguese dialects can sound.


Yeah, I posted that. You have a good memory ;)
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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-05-14, 20:15

Yes, and that was indeed from the Azores. Vlürch, I thought you were talking about something else entirely that's even older. :P
księżycowy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Księżycowy has used chotto with me before. :P

ちょっと!

See? :lol:


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