Wanderlust support group 4

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby Hent » 2017-09-12, 14:47

Yes. That's how shallow my knowledge of Kurdish is. :)

One more thing is Slav (or slaw in Sorani) which is a cognate of the Arabic (Islamicate) word Salam. IIRC.

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-12, 19:19

Dr. House wrote:Yeah Vijay you can correct that š :)

I wouldn't think to do that because I don't know Kurdish and am not really sure of all the ways it's Romanized. :)

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby Hent » 2017-09-13, 2:41

I think Kurmanji uses ş , but I'm always too lazy to open the virtual keyboard so I represent it with a š. :)

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-13, 4:29

You have š on your keyboard?

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby Aurinĭa » 2017-09-13, 11:52

Given that he's Czech, and š is a necessary character for writing Czech, I'd say the odds are rather high, yes. On a Czech keyboard it's on the same key as 3 on a US keyboard (to get 3, you need to use shift). You can also use shift + (= key on a US keyboard) + s.

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby dEhiN » 2017-09-13, 13:04

Aurinĭa wrote:Given that he's Czech, and š is a necessary character for writing Czech, I'd say the odds are rather high, yes. On a Czech keyboard it's on the same key as 3 on a US keyboard (to get 3, you need to use shift). You can also use shift + (= key on a US keyboard) + s.

But wouldn't that have to be a US International keyboard/layout? Or US with dead keys?
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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby Aurinĭa » 2017-09-13, 13:14

I meant the actual physical key. The key that gives 3 on a US keyboard gives š on a Czech keyboard (and 3 if you use shift).

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby dEhiN » 2017-09-13, 13:18

Aurinĭa wrote:I meant the actual physical key. The key that gives 3 on a US keyboard gives š on a Czech keyboard (and 3 if you use shift).

Oh ok
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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby Vlürch » 2017-09-13, 15:08

Even though it's one of those languages that I find pretty annoying, I'm having a mild wanderlust for Urdu because there was a documentary on TV last night called Song of Lahore about Pakistani classical musicians getting into jazz and then doing a concert in the US with Wynton Marsalis and other American jazz musicians. Aside from the English parts, I only understood like one or two words, زندگی being the only one I can remember, so it's a good thing it had Finnish subtitles. :P

But something I noticed that surprised me was how most of them used tons of English words; I thought that was a thing in Hindi but not Urdu, being one of the few differences between the two?

Another thing, which embarrasses me a bit, is that I couldn't tell there was another language spoken in it until looking up information on the documentary online: Punjabi. I always thought Punjabi was different enough that I'd be able to tell it apart from Urdu, but nope... which now makes me wonder, did they speak Punjabi all the time and the only Urdu was in the archive footage from political and religious stuff, and I thought all of the Punjabi was Urdu, or did some of them speak Urdu while others spoke Punjabi? How could I not notice that there were two languages being spoken? I mean, I've never heard Punjabi before, so I couldn't have possibly recognised it as being Punjabi, but how could I misrecognise it as Urdu? It can't be that similar, can it?

Then, if that was the case, shouldn't I be wanderlusting Punjabi rather than Urdu? Or is it just that Urdu is more easily approachable, Punjabi having its own unique script and everything, and probably having less familiar words? And why is it that I assumed Punjabi and Bengali had a lot more in common than Punjabi and Urdu or Bengali and Hindi? Do they? Why am I asking all these questions about Indo-Aryan languages? :o
vijayjohn wrote:You have š on your keyboard?

Kinda related: am I the only one who has used Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator to be able to type pretty much any character of the Latin alphabet, and to create a qwerty layout for Cyrillic? I know I've mentioned that software before, but it's just that it's so useful that I can't shut up about it, and it's free so there's no reason to not use it if you want to type something that you can't normally type on your keyboard. :P

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-13, 18:56

Vlürch wrote:But something I noticed that surprised me was how most of them used tons of English words; I thought that was a thing in Hindi but not Urdu, being one of the few differences between the two?

Nope.
It can't be that similar, can it?

It is, to the point where Bollywood movie songs frequently throw in Punjabi pretty randomly.
And why is it that I assumed Punjabi and Bengali had a lot more in common than Punjabi and Urdu or Bengali and Hindi? Do they?

No, Punjabi and Bengali are each just confined within much smaller regions than Hindi is, plus Hindi is pretty much imposed on schoolchildren all over the country, like no other language besides English, a little bit like Swedish in Finland if it weren't taught until high school. Punjabi and Hindi have lots in common and have been in contact for hundreds of years whereas Bengali is spoken way over to the east and doesn't have much in common with either of the other two languages apart from being another Indo-Aryan language with some of the same Perso-Arabic loanwords.
Why am I asking all these questions about Indo-Aryan languages? :o

'Cause you watched the documentary, duh. :P
Kinda related: am I the only one who has used Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator to be able to type pretty much any character of the Latin alphabet, and to create a qwerty layout for Cyrillic? I know I've mentioned that software before, but it's just that it's so useful that I can't shut up about it, and it's free so there's no reason to not use it if you want to type something that you can't normally type on your keyboard. :P

Why would I go through all that rigamarole when I could just use Character Map and Google Input Tools?

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby Saim » 2017-09-13, 20:16

Vlürch wrote:But something I noticed that surprised me was how most of them used tons of English words; I thought that was a thing in Hindi but not Urdu, being one of the few differences between the two?


The Anglicised register of Hindustani is common to both varieties and is used by middle class and English-educated people in both India and Pakistan. The main differences (to the point of intelligibility going from almost complete to quite strained) come when you get to the heavily Perso-Arabic (saaf Urdu) or Sanskritised (shuddh Hindi) registers of the language.

I always thought Punjabi was different enough that I'd be able to tell it apart from Urdu, but nope... which now makes me wonder, did they speak Punjabi all the time and the only Urdu was in the archive footage from political and religious stuff, and I thought all of the Punjabi was Urdu, or did some of them speak Urdu while others spoke Punjabi? How could I not notice that there were two languages being spoken? I mean, I've never heard Punjabi before, so I couldn't have possibly recognised it as being Punjabi, but how could I misrecognise it as Urdu? It can't be that similar, can it?


They are quite similar. The main difference in terms of accent is that Punjabi replaces murmured consonants (gh, bh, dh) with their devoiced unaspirated equivalents (k, p, t), adding a tone (Punjabi has two tones besides the level tone). So the tones and lack of murmured consonants is something to look out for. There's also the consonant /ɳ/ (retroflex nasal), which in Hindustani only exists in Sanskrit loans (represented by ण in Devanagari script) among some Hindi speakers.

Punjabi having its own unique script and everything


Unique-ish. Gurmukhi is very similar to Devanagari.

and probably having less familiar words?


For a speaker of English and Finnish? Why?

And why is it that I assumed Punjabi and Bengali had a lot more in common than Punjabi and Urdu or Bengali and Hindi? Do they? Why am I asking all these questions about Indo-Aryan languages? :o


No, Bengali is an Eastern Indo-Aryan language, which puts it in the same group as Oriya and the languages of Bihar (Bhojpuri, Maithili, etc.). The traditional Punjabi and Hindi language areas border each other whereas between Hindi and Bengali there is the Eastern Hindi area (Awadhi, Chattisgarhi) and the Bihari area (Bhojpuri, Magahi, Maithili).

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby dEhiN » 2017-09-14, 3:08

Saim wrote:No, Bengali is an Eastern Indo-Aryan language, which puts it in the same group as Oriya and the languages of Bihar (Bhojpuri, Maithili, etc.). The traditional Punjabi and Hindi language areas border each other whereas between Hindi and Bengali there is the Eastern Hindi area (Awadhi, Chattisgarhi) and the Bihari area (Bhojpuri, Magahi, Maithili).

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Isn't Sinhalese an Eastern Indo-Aryan language? If I remember correctly, it uses a script that's related to Oriya.
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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-14, 3:17

Nope, Sinhalese is kind of its own thing because it split off from all the Indian varieties well over a thousand years ago. And no, its script has nothing to do with Oriya; if anything, it's more closely related to Tamil script than to Oriya script!

No idea why that map seems to ignore Bagheli and even Awadhi (which after all used to be the literary standard for Hindi and was what Ramcharitmanas, which is supposed to be the oldest written work in Hindi, was written in). And there's so much more to Bengali-Assamese than just literally Bengali and Assamese!

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby Vlürch » 2017-09-14, 13:18

vijayjohn wrote:
Vlürch wrote:But something I noticed that surprised me was how most of them used tons of English words; I thought that was a thing in Hindi but not Urdu, being one of the few differences between the two?

Nope.

Saim wrote:The Anglicised register of Hindustani is common to both varieties and is used by middle class and English-educated people in both India and Pakistan.

Hmm, then I have a probably stupid question: is the English influence on Urdu more American while the English influence on Hindi is more British, or has the American military not had big enough an impact to replace British English as more prominent and prestigious? I mean in terms of vocabulary, like British English (en-GB) lift vs American English (en-US) elevator, etc. and not pronunciation, of course.

By the way, isn't it kinda weird that there's no Indian English in the language list when there is Singaporean and South African English?
Saim wrote:The main differences (to the point of intelligibility going from almost complete to quite strained) come when you get to the heavily Perso-Arabic (saaf Urdu) or Sanskritised (shuddh Hindi) registers of the language.

Ah, I assumed that was the default, and didn't know English also had that much of a presence in Pakistan.
vijayjohn wrote:It is, to the point where Bollywood movie songs frequently throw in Punjabi pretty randomly.

Interesting, no wonder I couldn't tell them apart then. According to Wikipedia, at least, they belong to entirely different branches of Indo-Aryan, though, which is why it's so surprising. Is is because of the influence of Hindi/Urdu on it, or has it also happened the other way around, or is there just a lot of common ground between all the Indo-Aryan languages even between different branches the same way there is with Turkic languages for example?
vijayjohn wrote:
And why is it that I assumed Punjabi and Bengali had a lot more in common than Punjabi and Urdu or Bengali and Hindi? Do they?

No, Punjabi and Bengali are each just confined within much smaller regions than Hindi is, plus Hindi is pretty much imposed on schoolchildren all over the country, like no other language besides English, a little bit like Swedish in Finland if it weren't taught until high school.

Is Hindi being imposed in Bangladesh, too, or only in West Bengal?
vijayjohn wrote:Punjabi and Hindi have lots in common and have been in contact for hundreds of years whereas Bengali is spoken way over to the east and doesn't have much in common with either of the other two languages apart from being another Indo-Aryan language with some of the same Perso-Arabic loanwords.

Hmm, now that I think about it, maybe I thought they had more in common because Bangladesh used to be called East Pakistan and Punjabi is spoken by a lot of people in Pakistan? Doesn't really make sense, but I don't think I ever even thought about it before...
vijayjohn wrote:
Why am I asking all these questions about Indo-Aryan languages? :o

'Cause you watched the documentary, duh. :P

Well, yeah, but now I'm beginning to seriously wanderlust all the Indo-Aryan languages. :P
vijayjohn wrote:
Kinda related: am I the only one who has used Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator to be able to type pretty much any character of the Latin alphabet, and to create a qwerty layout for Cyrillic? I know I've mentioned that software before, but it's just that it's so useful that I can't shut up about it, and it's free so there's no reason to not use it if you want to type something that you can't normally type on your keyboard. :P

Why would I go through all that rigamarole when I could just use Character Map and Google Input Tools?

I don't know, but I personally prefer it because it's faster: being able to easily typing shit like ṉɂḷđẑƶṟþꜧģ makes me happy. :lol:
Saim wrote:They are quite similar. The main difference in terms of accent is that Punjabi replaces murmured consonants (gh, bh, dh) with their devoiced unaspirated equivalents (k, p, t), adding a tone (Punjabi has two tones besides the level tone). So the tones and lack of murmured consonants is something to look out for. There's also the consonant /ɳ/ (retroflex nasal), which in Hindustani only exists in Sanskrit loans (represented by ण in Devanagari script) among some Hindi speakers.

An actually fully tonal Indo-European language...!? :shock: And I thought Sindhi was weird... well, it is with its implosives, but...
Saim wrote:
Punjabi having its own unique script and everything


Unique-ish. Gurmukhi is very similar to Devanagari.

Yeah, but I only recognise a handful of Devanagari characters, while I can mostly read the Perso-Arabic script (but have no clue about the unwritten vowels in any words unless I know the word, of course...) so with the latter, I can at least recognise the consonants and have some general idea of how something is supposed to be pronounced. With the former, the only characters I remember every time I see them are क, ल and ब and the vowels ◌ी ◌ै and ◌ु, although even then I might confuse ◌ै and ◌ौ.
Saim wrote:
and probably having less familiar words?


For a speaker of English and Finnish? Why?

Well, I know some Persian and Arabic vocabulary, which I assume there's more of in Urdu than Punjabi? Even though I have trouble picking up even familiar words in actual speech when it comes to any language other than Finnish and English, in writing it's much easier and being able to understand at least a few words already helps to get into a language.
Saim wrote:
And why is it that I assumed Punjabi and Bengali had a lot more in common than Punjabi and Urdu or Bengali and Hindi? Do they? Why am I asking all these questions about Indo-Aryan languages? :o


No, Bengali is an Eastern Indo-Aryan language, which puts it in the same group as Oriya and the languages of Bihar (Bhojpuri, Maithili, etc.). The traditional Punjabi and Hindi language areas border each other whereas between Hindi and Bengali there is the Eastern Hindi area (Awadhi, Chattisgarhi) and the Bihari area (Bhojpuri, Magahi, Maithili).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _Hindi.png

Thanks, that's good to know.

Another question: does Hindi have more in common with Marathi or Nepali?

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby Saim » 2017-09-14, 13:58

Vlürch wrote:Hmm, then I have a probably stupid question: is the English influence on Urdu more American while the English influence on Hindi is more British, or has the American military not had big enough an impact to replace British English as more prominent and prestigious? I mean in terms of vocabulary, like British English (en-GB) lift vs American English (en-US) elevator, etc. and not pronunciation, of course.


The influence is primarily British in both cases. Lift is lift in both Hindi and Urdu (Devanagari लिफ्ट, Urdu لفٹ).

Interesting, no wonder I couldn't tell them apart then. According to Wikipedia, at least, they belong to entirely different branches of Indo-Aryan, though, which is why it's so surprising. Is is because of the influence of Hindi/Urdu on it, or has it also happened the other way around, or is there just a lot of common ground between all the Indo-Aryan languages even between different branches the same way there is with Turkic languages for example?


I think it may be down to contact and proximity, as well as common loanwords (from Persian, Arabic, Sanskrit and English). Punjabi and Hindi postpositions are mostly different, as are many (but not all) of the most important adverbs and conjunctions. Vernacular Majhi Punjabi verbal morphology is also fairly different from Hindi, but for whatever reason the standard in India uses conjugations that are closer to Hindi. The noun declensions are similar though.

Is Hindi being imposed in Bangladesh, too, or only in West Bengal?


I don't think Hindi is a compulsory subject in Bangladeshi schools, no.

An actually fully tonal Indo-European language...!? :shock:


Yes, I believe Punjabi, Dogri and Kangri (and maybe other languages in Himachal Pradesh) have tone. None of the neighbouring languages (namely Hindi-Urdu, Haryanvi, Saraiki, Pahari-Pothohari, Hindko, Marwari, Garhwali).

Well, I know some Persian and Arabic vocabulary, which I assume there's more of in Urdu than Punjabi?


Urdu has a bit more Arabic vocabulary than Punjabi but not by that much.

Another question: does Hindi have more in common with Marathi or Nepali?


Nepali, I think.

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby Hent » 2017-09-14, 17:03

What do you mean fully tonal? Punjabi has two tones so it's kinda semi tonal like Swedish or Croatian. It doesn't have so many tones like Cantonese or Vietnamese.

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby dEhiN » 2017-09-14, 17:12

Dr. House wrote:What do you mean fully tonal? Punjabi has two tones so it's kinda semi tonal like Swedish or Croatian. It doesn't have so many tones like Cantonese or Vietnamese.

The number of tones doesn't matter; it's not like >5 tones means fully tonal. Isn't it more about whether it's an actual tone or a pitch accent? Swedish (and Japanese, though I don't know about Croatian) have pitch accents. Canto and Vietnamese have tones.
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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby linguoboy » 2017-09-14, 17:14

Dr. House wrote:What do you mean fully tonal? Punjabi has two tones so it's kinda semi tonal like Swedish or Croatian. It doesn't have so many tones like Cantonese or Vietnamese.

Yeah, I always thought it was possible to analyse Panjabi just in terms of the location of the stress and the downstep, like a slightly unusual pitch-accent language, rather than treating as having lexical tone on a par with Yoruba or Thai. That's essentially how the orthography works and it's pretty nearly phonemic.
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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-14, 17:33

Vlürch wrote:Hmm, now that I think about it, maybe I thought they had more in common because Bangladesh used to be called East Pakistan and Punjabi is spoken by a lot of people in Pakistan? Doesn't really make sense, but I don't think I ever even thought about it before...

Okay, but East Pakistan only survived for sixteen years because it had basically nothing in common with West Pakistan (or, as we call it today, just Pakistan). Pretty much the only reason why either Pakistan or Bangladesh exists is the British. One of the good things about gaining independence from a European colonial power is that you no longer have to have total foreigners dividing your homeland up in more or less random ways that make zero cultural sense.
dEhiN wrote:Swedish (and Japanese, though I don't know about Croatian) have pitch accents.

Croatian, too.

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby Vlürch » 2017-09-26, 16:00

Aaaaaaand here I go again, wanderlusting extinct languages! :lol:

This time, it's Tangut. I've had brief wanderlusts for it in the past, but now I finally had the courage to look up some words to hopefully memorise and started to add them in an .rtf file like the languages I've seriously tried to learn. It's nice that there's a Tangut unicode font, because otherwise it'd be impossible for me to get motivated to remember any of the characters. It's annoying, though, that at least every online thing I could find mixes IPA and non-IPA characters, so the pronunciation has to be guessed... I mean, I get that it's not known what the phonology was exactly like, but mixing IPA and non-IPA characters is really annoying to me.

The first word I looked up, of course, was "hell": Image (djị). :P


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