Interesting Etymologies

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Gibberish

Postby schnaz » 2021-01-28, 16:12

The etymology of gibberish is uncertain. The term was first seen in English in the early 16th century.[4] It is generally thought to be an onomatopoeia imitative of speech, similar to the words jabber (to talk rapidly) and gibber (to speak inarticulately).[5][6]

It may originate from the word jib, which is the Angloromani variant of the Romani language word meaning "language" or "tongue". To non-speakers, the Anglo-Romany dialect could sound like English mixed with nonsense words, and if those seemingly-nonsensical words are referred to as jib then the term gibberish (pronounced "jibberish") could be derived as a descriptor for nonsensical speech. Another theory is that gibberish came from the name of a famous 8th century Muslim alchemist, Jābir ibn Hayyān, whose name was Latinized as Geber. Thus, gibberish was a reference to the incomprehensible technical jargon and allegorical coded language used by Jabir and other alchemists. From Wikipedia.
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Re: Interesting Etymologies

Postby Yasna » 2021-02-03, 15:39

Indonesian tenggara (southeast) is from Malay tenggara, from Malayalam തെന്‍കര (ten‍kara, “southeast”). I noticed West Nusa Tenggara and East Nusa Tenggara next to Java on a map, so I had to investigate. (Nusa means island.)
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Re: Interesting Etymologies

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-02-03, 18:38

Yasna wrote:Indonesian tenggara (southeast) is from Malay tenggara, from Malayalam തെന്‍കര (ten‍kara, “southeast”). I noticed West Nusa Tenggara and East Nusa Tenggara next to Java on a map, so I had to investigate. (Nusa means island.)

Wait, we have a word for 'southeast'? When the fuck did that happen?? Also how did [t̪ɛˈkɛŋgɛɻəkɯ] become [t̪ɛŋˈgəɾa]?

(Then again, why is Eraviperoor pronounced [ɛɾɯˈʋeːɾi]?).

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Re: Interesting Etymologies

Postby linguoboy » 2021-02-03, 18:45

vijayjohn wrote:
Yasna wrote:Indonesian tenggara (southeast) is from Malay tenggara, from Malayalam തെന്‍കര (ten‍kara, “southeast”). I noticed West Nusa Tenggara and East Nusa Tenggara next to Java on a map, so I had to investigate. (Nusa means island.)

Wait, we have a word for 'southeast'? When the fuck did that happen??

Could it be it's one that you just don't bother learning if you don't spend your day piloting sailing ships?
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Re: Interesting Etymologies

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-02-04, 5:28

vijayjohn wrote:
Yasna wrote:Indonesian tenggara (southeast) is from Malay tenggara, from Malayalam തെന്‍കര (ten‍kara, “southeast”). I noticed West Nusa Tenggara and East Nusa Tenggara next to Java on a map, so I had to investigate. (Nusa means island.)

Wait, we have a word for 'southeast'? When the fuck did that happen?? Also how did [t̪ɛˈkɛŋgɛɻəkɯ] become [t̪ɛŋˈgəɾa]?


For what it's worth Gundert's 1872 Malayalam and English Dictionary has an entry:
തെങ്ങരക്കാററു (തെൻകര) south-east
But, തെങ്ങരക്കാററു doesn't get any Google hits other than the dictionary entry (the dictionary itself and another site that seems to have copied its content). And തെൻകര only gets 24 hits (actually 122 but "In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 24 already displayed"), one of which is the 1872 dictionary and several others of which are references to the etymology of the word in Indonesian and Malay. :hmm:

But I did find this:
tengara (തെന്‍കര) “southeast”
from ten (തെന്‍) ‘south’ + kara (കര) ‘shore’;
also compare Tamil teṉ (தென்) ‘south’ + karai (கரை) ‘shore of a sea’.

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Re: Interesting Etymologies

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-02-06, 12:36

linguoboy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Yasna wrote:Indonesian tenggara (southeast) is from Malay tenggara, from Malayalam തെന്‍കര (ten‍kara, “southeast”). I noticed West Nusa Tenggara and East Nusa Tenggara next to Java on a map, so I had to investigate. (Nusa means island.)

Wait, we have a word for 'southeast'? When the fuck did that happen??

Could it be it's one that you just don't bother learning if you don't spend your day piloting sailing ships?

Well, the third novel I read in Malayalam is set in a fishing community, so maybe such a word could have been used there, though I'd have no way of remembering that because a lot of words in Malayalam literature are unfamiliar to me anyway.

Directions seem to be among the most commonly forgotten words in Malayalam. The first one I learned was [kɛˈɻəkɯ] 'east' because of an old movie song. Then I learned 'west', 'north', and 'south' from Learn Malayalam in 30 Days. I believe I learned 'left' and 'right' even later from the same source (I might have told this story before, but my dad told me about someone he was supposed to teach driving to, but when he said 'turn right' in Malayalam, sometimes the guy would turn right, but other times he would turn left. It turned out it was because he didn't know these particular words in Malayalam), and I didn't learn how to actually use 'east', 'west', 'north', or 'south' in context until much, much later (e.g. generally, if you wanted to refer to the east, you would use a form slightly different from [kɛˈɻəkɯ]).
Linguaphile wrote:For what it's worth Gundert's 1872 Malayalam and English Dictionary has an entry:
തെങ്ങരക്കാററു (തെൻകര) south-east
But, തെങ്ങരക്കാററു doesn't get any Google hits other than the dictionary entry (the dictionary itself and another site that seems to have copied its content). And തെൻകര only gets 24 hits (actually 122 but "In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 24 already displayed"), one of which is the 1872 dictionary and several others of which are references to the etymology of the word in Indonesian and Malay. :hmm:

Yeah, I think I saw all of this.
But I did find this:
tengara (തെന്‍കര) “southeast”
from ten (തെന്‍) ‘south’ + kara (കര) ‘shore’;
also compare Tamil teṉ (தென்) ‘south’ + karai (கரை) ‘shore of a sea’.

I didn't see this, but I suspected exactly this etymology. All of this together makes me inclined (or at least tempted!) to believe that it does not, in fact, mean 'southeast'.

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Re: Interesting Etymologies

Postby Yasna » 2021-02-11, 2:47

This is one of the most bizarre coincidences I have ever encountered. As you know, swallow can refer to the act of swallowing or the bird. Mandarin yàn can also refer to both swallowing (咽/嚥) and this same bird (燕). And in both languages, there is no apparent etymological connection between the two homophones. The 嚥 version of the swallowing character first appears in the records later than 咽 and was thus presumably only used for the phonetic value of its right-side component 燕.
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Re: Interesting Etymologies

Postby Rí.na.dTeangacha » 2021-02-11, 10:36

Yasna wrote:This is one of the most bizarre coincidences I have ever encountered. As you know, swallow can refer to the act of swallowing or the bird. Mandarin yàn can also refer to both swallowing (咽/嚥) and this same bird (燕). And in both languages, there is no apparent etymological connection between the two homophones. The 嚥 version of the swallowing character first appears in the records later than 咽 and was thus presumably only used for the phonetic value of its right-side component 燕.


I found a coincidence just like this the other day, posted about it here.
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Re: Interesting Etymologies

Postby schnaz » 2021-02-18, 8:58

From Real Academia Espanola :
Word of the day: Chinchulin
Del quechua ch'únchull.

1. m. Arg., Bol. y Ur. Intestino delgado comestible de ovinos o vacunos.

Sound familiar?

https://dle.rae.es/chinchul%C3%ADn

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinchu ... ulines.jpg

http://etimologias.dechile.net/?chunchules

https://www.etymonline.com/word/chitter ... ne_v_11290
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Re: Interesting Etymologies

Postby schnaz » 2021-02-19, 14:29

Yesterday morning Iwas hoping that maybe I had stumbled upon a previously unknown cultural interchange between Anglo Saxon and Quechua.Today I am starting to realize that the Quechua word is ch'únchull and that Spanish speakers adapted it to "chinchulin" making it's possible relationship to "chittlin" less likely. 😥
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Re: Interesting Etymologies

Postby linguoboy » 2021-02-19, 14:56

schnaz wrote:Yesterday morning Iwas hoping that maybe I had stumbled upon a previously unknown cultural interchange between Anglo Saxon and Quechua.Today I am starting to realize that the Quechua word is ch'únchull and that Spanish speakers adapted it to "chinchulin" making it's possible relationship to "chittlin" less likely. 😥

Moreover, "chittlin" is derived from "chitterlings". So you've basically got a single sound (ch) in common between the two words.

Not mention this: How likely are chance resemblances between languages?.
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Re: Interesting Etymologies

Postby schnaz » 2021-02-19, 15:21

Linguoboy refered us to: https://www.zompist.com/chance.htm
Very informative! .....but / and it turns out there is an African connection:

In Peru this meal has a Creole term "choncholi" : prepared steamed and then roasted on a grill, food native of people from Angola, who were based in the south of the country to work in the cotton fields and sugar in the province of Ica, south of Lima. It was a typical food of the black population of Peru but now, like the kebabs they are consumed at every social level.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunchullo
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Re: Interesting Etymologies

Postby linguoboy » 2021-02-19, 15:34

schnaz wrote:In Peru this meal has a Creole term "choncholi" : prepared steamed and then roasted on a grill, food native of people from Angola, who were based in the south of the country to work in the cotton fields and sugar in the province of Ica, south of Lima. It was a typical food of the black population of Peru but now, like the kebabs they are consumed at every social level.

Yes, the "African connection" is that Africans were enslaved and transported to the Americas and forced to do strenuous manual labour. They were fed poorly, which means that they were only allowed the cuts of meat their enslavers didn't want. This means they ended up eating a lot of tripe and intestines (smelly offal that takes a lot of work to make safe to eat and tasty).
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Re: Interesting Etymologies

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-02-19, 15:41

schnaz wrote:Yesterday morning Iwas hoping that maybe I had stumbled upon a previously unknown cultural interchange between Anglo Saxon and Quechua.Today I am starting to realize that the Quechua word is ch'únchull and that Spanish speakers adapted it to "chinchulin" making it's possible relationship to "chittlin" less likely. 😥

And then there's the dialect variation and regionalisms, where the words get further and further apart. Note in particular that the English words all have word-initial -chit (which none of the Spanish words have), the Spanish words all have a variation of word-medial -chur/-chul/-chol (which none of the English words have).
Even if this were not true, the similarities between chittlin and chinchulín would still be a coincidence. :silly:

Variation:
English: chittlins, chitlins, chitterlings
Spanish: chinchulines, chinchurrias, choncholis, chunchules, chunchullos, chunchurrias
Quechua: ch'unchul, ch'unchula, ch'unchulla, ch'unchuli, ch'unchulli, chunchulli, chunchuli

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Re: Interesting Etymologies

Postby schnaz » 2021-02-19, 16:25

When wikipedia says: "choncholi" is a creole term, does that mean that the Angolans had brought with them in their language a term similar to "choncholi"?
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Re: Interesting Etymologies

Postby linguoboy » 2021-02-19, 17:10

schnaz wrote:When wikipedia says: "choncholi" is a creole term, does that mean that the Angolans had brought with them in their language a term similar to "choncholi"?

No, it does not. It just means it's a term used by creoles (which is an ethnic designation).

If you read the Spanish version of the article, you'll find at the very top of the page:
Chinchulín, choncholí, chunchullo, chinchurria, chunchurria o chunchules (todos del quechua ch'unchu, "intestino" o "tripas")1 es la forma utilizada para referirse al intestino delgado del ganado vacuno.

(Emphasis added.)
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Re: Interesting Etymologies

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-02-19, 19:55

I just realized that edecán, used in Spanish for various types of assistants and aides such as ushers at events, comes from French aide-de-camp. (One of those things that seems rather obvious now that I know that, but I hadn't realized it before.)

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Re: Interesting Etymologies

Postby schnaz » 2021-02-20, 14:55

linguoboy wrote:
schnaz wrote:When wikipedia says: "choncholi" is a creole term, does that mean that the Angolans had brought with them in their language a term similar to "choncholi"?


Linguoboy said : No, it does not. It just means it's a term used by creoles (which is an ethnic designation).


Then... Do you believe Wikipedia should have said::" " choncholi" is a term used by creole people."?
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Re: Interesting Etymologies

Postby linguoboy » 2021-02-20, 16:31

schnaz wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
schnaz wrote:When wikipedia says: "choncholi" is a creole term, does that mean that the Angolans had brought with them in their language a term similar to "choncholi"?

Linguoboy said : No, it does not. It just means it's a term used by creoles (which is an ethnic designation).

Then... Do you believe Wikipedia should have said::" " choncholi" is a term used by creole people."?

I don’t have strong feelings on the matter. “Creole” doesn’t imply any particular linguistic origin to me because creoles often incorporate vocabulary from a wide variety of languages. If they meant to suggest it was derived from an African language, they would have said that.
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Re: Interesting Etymologies

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-02-20, 16:39

schnaz wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
schnaz wrote:When wikipedia says: "choncholi" is a creole term, does that mean that the Angolans had brought with them in their language a term similar to "choncholi"?


Linguoboy said : No, it does not. It just means it's a term used by creoles (which is an ethnic designation).


Then... Do you believe Wikipedia should have said::" " choncholi" is a term used by creole people."?


The word choncholí is used throughout Peru, not used exclusively by any particular ethnic group. You're right, it's awkwardly worded in the article.
The situation is further complicated by the fact that in modern Peru the term "creole" (criollo) is largely a culture one rather than an ethnic or linguistic distinction: música criolla, gastronomía criolla, etc. I suspect that is how it is meant here. (The Spanish version of the article makes no mention of "criollo" at all, but does describe choncholí as "una comida típica de la gastronomía afroperuana.")
The Quechua language does not have the sound [o] and Peru seems to be the only place that ch'unchul has had this vowel change, so when the Wikipedia article says "a Creole term" and then in the same sentence mentions "people from Angola" they might mean that the pronunciation "choncholí" originated with arrival of Angolans. Again, it's rather poorly worded and we can only guess at what the writer of that line was thinking and no source is given. But choncholí is a specifically Peruvian dish that includes Peruvian red pepper, onions, and garlic; in general the various sources I checked aren't saying that the entire concept of eating ch'unchull in South America originated with Afroperuvians from Angola or that the recipe or word were brought to Peru from Angola, but that this particular version of the recipe originated with that population in Ica, Peru and then spread from Ica to the rest of the country. So I imagine that is what the English Wikipedia article was trying to get at too (or, what it should say).

Wikipedia:
"En Perú se llama a este alimento con el nombre de choncholí y es preparado primero cocido, aderezado con ají panca, cebolla y ajo, y luego asado en una parrilla. Se usan tanto las tripas de vacuno como de carnero y algunas aves. Este preparación es herencia de los esclavos llegados de Angola para trabajar en los algodonales y azucareras de la provincia de Ica, en la costa surcentral del país. Es una comida típica de la gastronomía afroperuana. Antiguamente era consumida únicamente por la población negra del Perú pero actualmente, al igual que los anticuchos, se consume a todo nivel social.​ El vendedor especializado en esta preparación se le llama choncholisero."


Juan Alvarez Vita's Diccionario de peruanismos:
choncholí. (del quechua chunchu, tripas, intestinos). Peru. Plato elaborado de tripas de vaca cocidas y luego dorada a la parilla y aderezada con ají, cebolla y ajo. Nota: En la Argentina es chinchulín, en Chile, chunchul o chunchulla.


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