Please identify the language

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Moraczewski
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Re: Please identify the language

Postby Moraczewski » 2017-07-04, 6:06

Aurinĭa wrote:I recognise some Dutch words and parts of sentences (e.g. douche, shower; bezoek, visit; echt waar, really true; Amsterdam; kon niet slapen, godverdomme, couldn't sleep, [for fuck's sake]; the name "Ronnie"), but because of the bad quality, I couldn't understand all that much. I feel like I understood enough to say that it's Dutch from the Netherlands, though.

Thanks! I just got confirmation from a Dutch friend. He said he couldn't understand it all but not so much because of the sound quality, but because of dialectal differencies. For everyone interested, here is rough transcript:

- Sjongejongejonge
- Echt waar Ronnie
- Vanaf half zeven uit bed, hè...
- Knap, ik ben er een halfuur uit
- [...] ga ik er ook liever uit, maar ja...
- Ahhh ik was helemaal kapot, man
- Zaterdag uhh ben ik stappen daar, ja Amsterdam in west, met z'n tweeën [...], word ik 's morgens wakker om een uur rond half zes pas terug, kon ik ook nog niet slapen godverdomme, bah ik was helemaal kapot
- Ja dan merk je toch dat je ouder wordt, vriend,
- Ohh ik was gisteren nog zo helemaal gesloopt
- Ja Rikkie zei, ja ik weet ook niet meer wat ik er mee aan moet
- Ja bejaardencentrum zat ik zo aan te denken
- Ja dat snap ik wel, en dan twee keer per week bezoek
- Ja zoiets [giggling]
- Ja dan vergeet 'ie toch [...]
- Komt niet goed dat ze twee keer per week op bezoek komen
- Nee allemaal verpleegsters
- [...] Ja maar Ronnie [...] Ik spring even onder de douche [...]
- Ja, veel plezier samen hè
- Later, joe joe

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Re: Please identify the language

Postby mōdgethanc » 2017-07-04, 9:16

vijayjohn wrote:doyouwishithadmorespacingbetweenletters orbetweenwords andmaybemorepunctuationmarks right :silly:
b e t w e e n e v e r y l e t t e r l i k e t h i s m e m e

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Re: Please identify the language

Postby OldBoring » 2017-07-04, 22:12

Printed is what the word says: it should be used only for printing.
You're supposed to use cursive when handwriting.

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Re: Please identify the language

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-04, 23:37

OldBoring wrote:Printed is what the word says: it should be used only for printing.
You're supposed to use cursive when handwriting.

It's supposed to be that way, but it's not really used in practice that way.

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Re: Please identify the language

Postby mōdgethanc » 2017-07-05, 6:07

I don't give a shit what I'm supposed to use. When I handwrite, I print, because it's easy to read and doesn't look like shit, which cursive does. Older people use cursive and clutch their pearls that millennials don't use it as much, but that's because we don't need to.

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Re: Please identify the language

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-05, 6:09

mōdgethanc wrote:Older people use cursive and clutch their pearls that millennials don't use it as much, but that's because we don't need to.

Also honestly, it can look especially shitty when we do try to write in cursive.

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Re: Please identify the language

Postby mōdgethanc » 2017-07-05, 6:11

I have a doctor's handwriting so that's one more reason not to use it. Meanwhile, I've been complimented on how neat and precise my printing is lots of times. Obviously I'm going to use the one that's readable.

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Re: Please identify the language

Postby Johanna » 2017-07-05, 7:05

Cursive made sense in the days of quills and reservoir pens, since it was impossible to write with any speed using print letters without dropping ink all over the page. The thing is, the ballpoint pen was invented in 1888, and pencils have been common for quite a while as well, so there is absolutely no practical reason to enforce cursive on people who aren't comfortable using it.

Also, even if you can read one type of cursive, it doesn't mean you're that good at deciphering another. My grandmother for example, she privately only uses cursive, she used to be a primary school teacher and taught both that and print letters, but she's still absolutely shit when it comes to reading 19th century handwriting. I'm way better at reading her generation's cursive, despite only using print letters myself.

One undeniable advantage with print letters is that if you catch yourself starting on the wrong letter, you only have to erase that one and not the whole freaking word. And even if you use pen rather than pencil, it's not that hard to turn some letters into others without it looking ridiculous, while that is much, much harder when you write in cursive.

Also,the cursive I learnt is really irritating when it comes to capitals, as I was always told that the advantage of cursive is that you don't have to lift your pen and that increases speed. Yeah, most capitals in that style are very similar to their print forms, so you have to lift your pen just as much... I played around with cursive quite a lot a year or two back and managed to tweak a lot of them in a way that made them look similar enough but where I usually didn't have to lift my pen once, or at the very least only had to add an extra stroke after the word was done. That and I stole a couple of forms from other countries' styles :P

Edit: The word "cursive" is from Latin, and in that language it had separate letters, they were simply for writing by hand rather than chiseled out in stone or similar. In other words, it was more like the difference today between actual print and handwritten print letters, what we think of as cursive where all letters in a word are connected came way later. Probably somewhere after the invention of the printing press, when literacy increased and writing by hand became solely a mundane task, leaving the days of painstakingly copied manuscripts behind.
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Re: Please identify the language

Postby Car » 2017-07-05, 9:14

mōdgethanc wrote:I have a doctor's handwriting so that's one more reason not to use it. Meanwhile, I've been complimented on how neat and precise my printing is lots of times. Obviously I'm going to use the one that's readable.

No real doctor uses the one that's readable. :P
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Please identify the language

Postby Johanna » 2017-07-05, 9:37

Car wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:I have a doctor's handwriting so that's one more reason not to use it. Meanwhile, I've been complimented on how neat and precise my printing is lots of times. Obviously I'm going to use the one that's readable.

No real doctor uses the one that's readable. :P

There's a reason electronic prescriptions have become the standard :P
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Re: Please identify the language

Postby mōdgethanc » 2017-07-05, 10:30

Handwritten prescriptions lead to medical errors and kill people. Electronic prescriptions are way better.
Johanna wrote:Cursive made sense in the days of quills and reservoir pens, since it was impossible to write with any speed using print letters without dropping ink all over the page. The thing is, the ballpoint pen was invented in 1888, and pencils have been common for quite a while as well, so there is absolutely no practical reason to enforce cursive on people who aren't comfortable using it.

Also, even if you can read one type of cursive, it doesn't mean you're that good at deciphering another. My grandmother for example, she privately only uses cursive, she used to be a primary school teacher and taught both that and print letters, but she's still absolutely shit when it comes to reading 19th century handwriting. I'm way better at reading her generation's cursive, despite only using print letters myself.

One undeniable advantage with print letters is that if you catch yourself starting on the wrong letter, you only have to erase that one and not the whole freaking word. And even if you use pen rather than pencil, it's not that hard to turn some letters into others without it looking ridiculous, while that is much, much harder when you write in cursive.

Also,the cursive I learnt is really irritating when it comes to capitals, as I was always told that the advantage of cursive is that you don't have to lift your pen and that increases speed. Yeah, most capitals in that style are very similar to their print forms, so you have to lift your pen just as much... I played around with cursive quite a lot a year or two back and managed to tweak a lot of them in a way that made them look similar enough but where I usually didn't have to lift my pen once, or at the very least only had to add an extra stroke after the word was done. That and I stole a couple of forms from other countries' styles :P

Edit: The word "cursive" is from Latin, and in that language it had separate letters, they were simply for writing by hand rather than chiseled out in stone or similar. In other words, it was more like the difference today between actual print and handwritten print letters, what we think of as cursive where all letters in a word are connected came way later. Probably somewhere after the invention of the printing press, when literacy increased and writing by hand became solely a mundane task, leaving the days of painstakingly copied manuscripts behind.
Why I hate cursive, an essay:

1) I'm salty about cursive because I'm tired of being nagged by boomers about how kids these days don't use it, when I never liked it to begin with and more importantly, I don't need to use it. So I see it as a symbol of the generational divide like Bob Dylan and avocado toast. To me, this is like complaining that millennials don't use typewriters anymore - we don't because they're obsolete.

2) In my line of work I have to read a lot of handwritten notes and the older workers almost always write in cursive, and worse, the elaborate flowery kind that I find impossible to read. Mercifully, those closer to my age tend to print or type them up. I read those much, much faster. So this reinforces my existing bias against cursive.

3) No one my age needs to worry about speed anyway when everyone types and/or has autocorrect and predictive text. Besides, I can print very fast using shorthand.

4) As an aside, I kind of hate pens as well. They're more aesthetic because they come in different colours, but I prefer to write using mechanical pencils. They're neater, don't take forever to get started, don't leak, and are erasable. Pens are good for cursive, but bad for printing because they leak and smear when you print. I don't know why it was a big deal in grade school when we were allowed to write in pen, just because it's "grown-up". Fuck pens. I only ever use them when I need to write in colour.

5) I've tried messing around with my cursive hand to make it look better and even though it's a little less messy, I still hate cursive. I only ever use it to sign my name. Fuck cursive.

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Re: Please identify the language

Postby Johanna » 2017-07-05, 10:47

Yeah, I only really use pen for filling out forms that have to be physically submitted, and everything except my signature is always in print letters. And even so, I use ballpoint pen, which doesn't smear really, not if you scribble on some spare piece of paper for a second before you start writing.

Also, I'm lazy, so you can't tell that my signature is supposed to represent my name, unless you already know what my name is.

I think that's the thing, inertia only got cursive going for so long once the practical reason had disappeared.
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Re: Please identify the language

Postby Aurinĭa » 2017-07-05, 11:30

Johanna wrote:
Car wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:I have a doctor's handwriting so that's one more reason not to use it. Meanwhile, I've been complimented on how neat and precise my printing is lots of times. Obviously I'm going to use the one that's readable.

No real doctor uses the one that's readable. :P

There's a reason electronic prescriptions have become the standard :P

Another reason being that electronic prescriptions are much harder for patients to tamper with.

Johanna wrote:One undeniable advantage with print letters is that if you catch yourself starting on the wrong letter, you only have to erase that one and not the whole freaking word. And even if you use pen rather than pencil, it's not that hard to turn some letters into others without it looking ridiculous, while that is much, much harder when you write in cursive.

I'm not quite sure what you mean with the first sentence. As for the second, that depends on the specific letters involved. To give just one example: a and o are very similar and easy to turn into one another in cursive, but have a completely different shape in print.

I like cursive. I was taught to write in cursive at school, and I've experimented a lot with my own handwriting, trying out both cursive and print. My current handwriting started out closer to print, but started gliding towards cursive pretty quickly; it's now a mixture of both—more print-like for clearly filling out forms, more cursive-like when I need to write faster.

I agree with mōdgethanc's love for mechanical pencils, though.

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Re: Please identify the language

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-05, 12:18

I like cursive, too, but my dad made me stop using it when I was still in elementary school for many of the same reasons mōdgethanc mentioned.
mōdgethanc wrote:As an aside, I kind of hate pens as well. They're more aesthetic because they come in different colours, but I prefer to write using mechanical pencils. They're neater, don't take forever to get started, don't leak, and are erasable. Pens are good for cursive, but bad for printing because they leak and smear when you print. I don't know why it was a big deal in grade school when we were allowed to write in pen, just because it's "grown-up". Fuck pens. I only ever use them when I need to write in colour.

My dad actually made me use pens more, too, because...I'm not sure how to put this, pen marks show up more clearly on paper? Whereas when you write in pencil, it has this dull, gray color that fades more easily (even without being erased). Also erasable pens are a thing.

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Re: Please identify the language

Postby Aurinĭa » 2017-07-05, 13:20

I use a pen when writing something other people have to read, or something that should last a while. For myself, I prefer to use a pencil (mechanical or not). It's a habit I developed when studying interpreting, as IME pencils flow more easily (read: faster) over the paper than pens, and I was the only who'd need to read my notes anyway.

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Re: Please identify the language

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-06, 0:09

Aurinĭa wrote:It's a habit I developed when studying interpreting

You studied interpreting? :o I've always wanted to know how that works. I wanted to do this for so long but never knew how to go about it.

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Re: Please identify the language

Postby Vlürch » 2017-07-06, 20:16

Johanna wrote:Also, I'm lazy, so you can't tell that my signature is supposed to represent my name, unless you already know what my name is.

I'm even lazier; my signature changes so much that a receptionist at the police station told me to put some effort into it to make it more consistent when I went to renew my ID. :lol:

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Re: Please identify the language

Postby Aurinĭa » 2017-07-06, 20:41

vijayjohn wrote:
Aurinĭa wrote:It's a habit I developed when studying interpreting

You studied interpreting? :o I've always wanted to know how that works. I wanted to do this for so long but never knew how to go about it.

You wanted to know how studying interpreting goes? It's fairly straightforward: you go to uni/college and study interpreting. :P Just like with translating, a lot of people who know two or more languages quite well think they'd be able to do it, but if you haven't had proper training, don't attempt to. There are all kinds of tips & tricks, as well as lots of pitfalls and common mistakes, you have to be taught how to avoid, and of course, properly supervised practice, practice, practice is essential.

If you wanted to know how interpreting works, I'm not sure I can help. Firstly, it'd depend on the kind of interpreting you're thinking of; and secondly, while we were taught some theory, it's actually not all that clear what really goes on in the brain of someone who's interpreting.

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Re: Please identify the language

Postby Vlürch » 2017-07-06, 21:46

Aurinĭa wrote:Just like with translating, a lot of people who know two or more languages quite well think they'd be able to do it, but if you haven't had proper training, don't attempt to.

Wait, are you saying that people who haven't gotten education for it shouldn't even try to translate anything? How can that position make sense to have for someone on a linguistics forum, let alone an admin of one? :shock: Or are you saying that people think they could translate stuff because they haven't tried, but that if they tried, they'd fail because they haven't had specialised education to learn it?

The latter doesn't sound like authoritarian assholery, but still pretty elitist and condescending if the implication is that people who haven't had specialised education are inherently less capable than those that have; I'm not saying it's not true for a lot of things, but for anything linguistics-related, it doesn't really make sense since self-learning is increasing and online lessons and dictionaries and whatnot are easily accessible, etc. and most importantly, because pretty much literally everyone speaks at least one language, so they already have a bae. Learning a second language in is really common around the world for various reasons, so translating between the fist and second language is generally not that hard. Boring at times, maybe, headache-inducing in some cases, sure, but it's not rocket science.

If I completely misunderstood what you meant, sorry.

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Re: Please identify the language

Postby IpseDixit » 2017-07-06, 22:50

Vlürch wrote:Learning a second language in is really common around the world for various reasons, so translating between the fist and second language is generally not that hard.


"Interpreting" is not exactly the same thing as "translating", and - at least IME - even translating can be so painful sometimes, indeed I can struggle quite a lot when translating from English to Italian, not because I don't understand the English original, but because I feel that the two languages have become two entities independent from each other in my brain, and it's not always easy to "build bridges" between the two.

Funnily enough, exactly today I watched this speech of an interpreter speaking about her job and, at some point, she did mention that there is a tiny minority of interpreters who didn't have a formal education in interpreting, but they're very rare (and I can see why).


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