Cognates

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Re: Cognates

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-04-04, 5:12

What would the immediate source be for Indian languages and Chinese, though, if it's a calque into any of those languages? Somehow Latin doesn't strike me as a likely immediate source. :hmm:
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Re: Cognates

Postby OldBoring » 2015-04-04, 5:49

It's very unlikely. In Chinese there are many other sea-something like 海胆(or 海刺猬)、海参、海豹、海狮、海绵、海马,etc.

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Re: Cognates

Postby linguoboy » 2015-04-04, 15:08

vijayjohn wrote:What would the immediate source be for Indian languages and Chinese, though, if it's a calque into any of those languages? Somehow Latin doesn't strike me as a likely immediate source. :hmm:

That's why I allowed for the possibility of independent invention in at least some cases.

But Latin seems to me a very likely source for Chinese calques given the mass-translation of Western scientific terminology that occurred from the 19th into the early 20th centuries. Often the calquing originally took place in Japan, and sometimes they modeled their neologisms on Dutch or German calques rather than directly on Latin, but the line of transmission is there all the same.
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Re: Cognates

Postby loqu » 2015-04-08, 19:20

linguoboy wrote:I've long known that the usual Catalan word for "root" is arrel. But it never occurred to me before today to wonder where that comes from and why Catalan doesn't have a reflex of Latin RADICEM like pretty much every other Romance language. As you may have guessed, the answer to one question is the answer to the other.

The expected development of RADICEM is raïu (cf. DICET > diu), and this is what we find in early attestations. However, already by the 13th century, this gets hypercorrected to raïl. Later (15th cent.) the diphthong contracts to rel, which is still found dialectally. In the standard language, however, a misdivision takes place similar to that which yielded English an apron from earlier a napron and la rel [ɫəˈrɛɫ] becomes reanalysed as l'arrel (19th cent.).

We still have la raïl in Valencian, though!
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Re: Cognates

Postby linguoboy » 2015-05-18, 18:11

Here's another case of a Catalan cognate disguised by hypercorrection.

Both [flag=]ca[/flag] malalt and [flag=]fr[/flag] malade derive from [flag=]la[/flag] MALE HABITU(M) "ill kept". I suspect that, in the French word, /i/ was lost early, leading to the cluster *bd which was simplified to *dd and then /d/. In Catalan, what seems to have happened is that intervocalic /b/ first weakened to *β and then vocalised, giving /au/ (attested in early forms) which was then hypercorrected to /al/. (Cf. DEBITU(M) which yielded [flag=]ca[/flag] deute but [flag=]fr[/flag] dette.)
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Re: Cognates

Postby Tenebrarum » 2015-05-23, 12:08

Car wrote:
Youngfun wrote:"Sea star" is how it's called in Italian and in Chinese too.

As in German.

Same in Vietnamese. I don't think it's a calque of anything though. It's not like "sea star" is a particularly hard simile to make, given the body shape of those creatures.
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Re: Cognates

Postby linguoboy » 2015-05-23, 14:06

Tenebrarum wrote:
Car wrote:
Youngfun wrote:"Sea star" is how it's called in Italian and in Chinese too.

As in German.

Same in Vietnamese. I don't think it's a calque of anything though. It's not like "sea star" is a particularly hard simile to make, given the body shape of those creatures.

Except for the fact that stars are not in fact "star-shaped", any more than a heart is "heart-shaped".
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Re: Cognates

Postby Johanna » 2015-05-23, 20:51

linguoboy wrote:
Tenebrarum wrote:Same in Vietnamese. I don't think it's a calque of anything though. It's not like "sea star" is a particularly hard simile to make, given the body shape of those creatures.

Except for the fact that stars are not in fact "star-shaped", any more than a heart is "heart-shaped".

I'm looking at one right now, and it does look kind of "star shaped" with arms of light radiating from the centre. OK, it's really Venus, but if you didn't know it was a planet, you'd think it was a particularly bright star.
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Re: Cognates

Postby linguoboy » 2015-06-03, 16:16

I would not have guessed that tank in sense of "storage vessel for liquids" was cognate with tank in the sense of "armoured military vehicle", and I certainly wouldn't've expected a South Asian etymon (cf. Guj. ṭāṅkī).
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Re: Cognates

Postby Lur » 2015-06-03, 20:29

linguoboy wrote:Here's another case of a Catalan cognate disguised by hypercorrection.

Both [flag=]ca[/flag] malalt and [flag=]fr[/flag] malade derive from [flag=]la[/flag] MALE HABITU(M) "ill kept". I suspect that, in the French word, /i/ was lost early, leading to the cluster *bd which was simplified to *dd and then /d/. In Catalan, what seems to have happened is that intervocalic /b/ first weakened to *β and then vocalised, giving /au/ (attested in early forms) which was then hypercorrected to /al/. (Cf. DEBITU(M) which yielded [flag=]ca[/flag] deute but [flag=]fr[/flag] dette.)

It's malauto/a in Aragonese :D
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Re: Cognates

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-06-03, 22:22

linguoboy wrote:I would not have guessed that tank in sense of "storage vessel for liquids" was cognate with tank in the sense of "armoured military vehicle", and I certainly wouldn't've expected a South Asian etymon (cf. Guj. ṭāṅkī).

I find it interesting how there are so many more words in English from Indian languages than I would've guessed. Honestly, even "ginger" and "sugar" were interesting enough for me, but there's even "cutter," "dinghy," "jolly-boat," "juggernaut," the "cheese" in "big cheese," the "damn" in "give a damn," and so on. (Thank you, Hobson-Jobson).

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Re: Cognates

Postby mōdgethanc » 2015-06-10, 3:37

linguoboy wrote:I would not have guessed that tank in sense of "storage vessel for liquids" was cognate with tank in the sense of "armoured military vehicle", and I certainly wouldn't've expected a South Asian etymon (cf. Guj. ṭāṅkī).
I did know it etymologically came from "[water] tank", but I didn't know it came from Gujarati of all things (or a closely related lect).

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Re: Cognates

Postby Saim » 2015-06-14, 9:16

linguoboy wrote:Here's another case of a Catalan cognate disguised by hypercorrection.

Both [flag=]ca[/flag] malalt and [flag=]fr[/flag] malade derive from [flag=]la[/flag] MALE HABITU(M) "ill kept". I suspect that, in the French word, /i/ was lost early, leading to the cluster *bd which was simplified to *dd and then /d/. In Catalan, what seems to have happened is that intervocalic /b/ first weakened to *β and then vocalised, giving /au/ (attested in early forms) which was then hypercorrected to /al/. (Cf. DEBITU(M) which yielded [flag=]ca[/flag] deute but [flag=]fr[/flag] dette.)


What is the basis of this hypercorrection? In older stages of Catalan was there a tendency to vocalise /l/ similar to most varieties of Occitan?

Lur wrote:It's malauto/a in Aragonese :D


Malaut in Occitan, even in those varieties that don't vocalise /l/.

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Re: Cognates

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-04-03, 20:37

It's been close to a year since anyone posted anything here, but according to Wiktionary, all of these are (partial) cognates:

English (en) free
Latin (la) laetus - happy (Wiktionary suggests this could have been from earlier *plaetus)
Russian (ru) приятель prijátelʹ - friend
Urdu (ur) پیار/Hindi (hi) प्यार [pʲaːɾɨ] - love

If that's surprising, these aren't, but I either never thought that these particular words might be related or learned that they were and totally forgot:

Latin (la) gaudeō - I rejoice, I take pleasure in
French (fr) jouir - to enjoy, cum (there's also an archaic term gaudir 'to enjoy, delight in')
Portuguese (pt) gozar - to enjoy, mock/make fun of, joke, cum
Spanish (es) gozar - to enjoy oneself

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Re: Cognates

Postby Koko » 2016-04-03, 21:59

Tsk tsk vijay! :nono: You're forgetting [flag=]it[/flag] godire :hmpf:

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Re: Cognates

Postby Antea » 2016-04-03, 22:05

Also it exists in Catalan

[flag=]ca[/flag] gaudir

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Re: Cognates

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-04-03, 22:54

Koko wrote:Tsk tsk vijay! :nono: You're forgetting [flag=]it[/flag] godire :hmpf:

I'm not forgetting it; I didn't include it because it's one of a whole bunch of descendants, and the ones I personally care about the most are the French, Spanish, and Portuguese ones because those are all languages I've been focusing on learning, plus that isn't even Italian; it's Sardinian. ;) In Italian, it's godere, and there's also gioire 'to rejoice (in/at), to be delighted (by)'.

But if Wiktionary's whole list is what you want, then Wiktionary's whole list is what you get! :twisted: In addition to the ones mentioned, there's also:

Corsican (co) goda
gaudar
English (en) enjoy, rejoice
Friulian (fur) gjoldi
guodi
Ladin (lld) goder
[ownflag=Norman (Jèrriais)]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Flag_of_Jersey.svg/125px-Flag_of_Jersey.svg.png[/ownflag] joui
Occitan (oc) gaudir, gausir
Rumantsch Grischun (rm) giudair
Sursilvan (rm) guder
Surmiran (rm) galdeir
Sutsilvan (rm) giuder
Puter (rm)Vallader (rm) giodair
Sardinian (sc) gudire, bodire, gosai, gosae, gosare (and of course godire)
Sicilian (scn) gòdiri, còliri
Venetian (vec) goder, godar

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Re: Cognates

Postby Koko » 2016-04-03, 23:31

vijayjohn wrote: plus that isn't even Italian; it's Sardinian. ;) In Italian, it's godere,

I have failed my Italian ancestry and have brought great shame and dishonor alla famiglia :cry: Excuse me while I kms *ties noose 'round neck*

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Re: Cognates

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-04-04, 0:57

Nooooo!!! Come back from the dead!!!

(I have to return the favor ;)).

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Re: Cognates

Postby Koko » 2016-04-04, 18:37

*a dark, voice like an earthquake* He's too far gone now :twisted: The only way to retrieve him is— *tackled by Aesculaepius* Nah, he's fine. *speaks A. Greek*

(me) Thou art rude, Vijay :hmpf: But thank you ^^


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