Cognates

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Re: Cognates

Postby Babelfish » 2014-08-16, 15:12

I'm not an expert on this, but I'd note that both Hebrew and Arabic exchange the semi-vowels y/i and w/u quite frequently, especially in verb conjugation, and not in a readily explicable manner. For instance, yadaʔ "knew" and hodiaʔ "informed" are both from the same root, but its initial letter - whether originally y or w - manifests as y in one conjugation and o in another. This is actually the case for most weak verbs of this type (initial semi-vowel).
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Re: Cognates

Postby Marah » 2014-08-18, 10:28

[flag=]hr[/flag] vrt - garden
[flag=]es[/flag] huerta - vegetable garden

Both come from Latin hortus
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

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Re: Cognates

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-08-18, 15:01

Marah wrote:[flag=]hr[/flag] vrt - garden
[flag=]es[/flag] huerta - vegetable garden

Both come from Latin hortus


That's interesting. I would have thought vrt to be a relation of [flag=]fr[/flag] vert, [flag=]ca[/flag] verd, [flag=]es[/flag] verde etc. I also never made the connection of [flag=]es[/flag] huerta with Latin hortus.

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Re: Cognates

Postby linguoboy » 2014-08-28, 15:11

A Greek doublet for you:

κέλευσμα "moral principle"
τσούρμο "crew"

The second passed through Vulgar Latin where it meant "a call to oarsmen to keep time" and then, by metonymy, "crew" (cf. It. ciurma).
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Re: Cognates

Postby hrhenry » 2014-08-28, 17:03

Marah wrote:[flag=]hr[/flag] vrt - garden
[flag=]es[/flag] huerta - vegetable garden

Both come from Latin hortus

Or vrt could have come from proto-germanic "wyrt". There seems to be some doubt on its actual origin.

Also, while "orchard" can be traced to "hortus", there's also some speculation that it's a combination of "wort" (wyrt) and "geard" (yard/garden) - "ortgeard"

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Re: Cognates

Postby Marah » 2014-08-28, 17:48

That's really interesting, hrhenry. Where did you find the other hypothesis? It doesn't appear on Wikitionary.com
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

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Re: Cognates

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-08-28, 18:44

hrhenry wrote:Or vrt could have come from proto-germanic "wyrt". There seems to be some doubt on its actual origin.

Also, while "orchard" can be traced to "hortus", there's also some speculation that it's a combination of "wort" (wyrt) and "geard" (yard/garden) - "ortgeard"

R.
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Nitpicking, but wyrt is Old English. In Proto-Germanic it was wurt-.

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Re: Cognates

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-08-29, 8:25

That's not nitpicking at all. That's like if somebody said "castle" came from Norman French château and you pointed out that the Norman French form is castel and that château is Parisian French. It's pretty useful information. :)
Last edited by vijayjohn on 2014-08-31, 19:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cognates

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-08-29, 18:35

vijayjohn wrote:That's not nitpicking at all. That's like if somebody said "castle" came from Norman French château and you pointed out that the Normal French form is castel and that château is Parisian French. It's pretty useful information. :)
Well, those cognates differ quite a lot, whereas he was only one letter off, and it could have been a typo for all I know. But I see your point.

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Re: Cognates

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-08-31, 20:05

OMG, I accidentally wrote "Normal French" instead of "Norman French"! :lol:

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Re: Cognates

Postby loqu » 2014-09-21, 13:32

Love this one.

Spanish (es) sieso anus, rectum
[flag=Andalusian (Cádiz) Spanish]es-AN[/flag] sieso asshole, unfriendly person
[flag=Catalan/Valencian]ca[/flag] ses anus, rectum
German (de) r Sessel armchair
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Re: Cognates

Postby Linguist » 2014-10-13, 19:02

mōdgethanc wrote:
hrhenry wrote:Or vrt could have come from proto-germanic "wyrt". There seems to be some doubt on its actual origin.

Also, while "orchard" can be traced to "hortus", there's also some speculation that it's a combination of "wort" (wyrt) and "geard" (yard/garden) - "ortgeard"

R.
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Nitpicking, but wyrt is Old English. In Proto-Germanic it was wurt-.

Is this where [flag=]de[/flag] Wurzel comes from?
[ownflag=]http://www.nationalflaggen.de/media/flags/flagge-heiliges-roemisches-reich-ab-1400.gif[/ownflag] Die anderen tugende sind einwiht, und ist dâ bî diu stæte niht.

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Re: Cognates

Postby linguoboy » 2014-10-13, 19:12

loqu wrote:Spanish (es) sieso anus, rectum
[flag=Andalusian (Cádiz) Spanish]es-AN[/flag] sieso asshole, unfriendly person
[flag=Catalan/Valencian]ca[/flag] ses anus, rectum
German (de) r Sessel armchair

That last one is a false friend. Cf. English settle (a type of bench, from OE setl "sitting; a seat"), which is a true cognate.

Inherited *s generally gives Modern Standard German medial /z/ whereas medial /s/ represents Common Germanic *t. Cf. Käse from Latin caseus.
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Re: Cognates

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-10-13, 21:40

Linguist wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:
hrhenry wrote:Or vrt could have come from proto-germanic "wyrt". There seems to be some doubt on its actual origin.

Also, while "orchard" can be traced to "hortus", there's also some speculation that it's a combination of "wort" (wyrt) and "geard" (yard/garden) - "ortgeard"

R.
==
Nitpicking, but wyrt is Old English. In Proto-Germanic it was wurt-.

Is this where [flag=]de[/flag] Wurzel comes from?

It's from a compound of that and Proto-Germanic *waluz, apparently. (See here).

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Re: Cognates

Postby sa wulfs » 2014-10-14, 20:44

loqu wrote:Yes, that always striked me, because we Western Andalusians pronounce the 'h' that comes from a Latin 'f' the same way we pronounce the 'j', but that one is accepted in Standard Spanish as 'j'. Must be the only word in that case.

What about juerga alongside huelga, ultimately from follicāre?
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Re: Cognates

Postby loqu » 2014-10-17, 9:35

linguoboy wrote:That last one is a false friend. Cf. English settle (a type of bench, from OE setl "sitting; a seat"), which is a true cognate.

Inherited *s generally gives Modern Standard German medial /z/ whereas medial /s/ represents Common Germanic *t. Cf. Käse from Latin caseus.

My bad. My German teacher lied to us then. :evil:
sa wulfs wrote:
loqu wrote:Yes, that always striked me, because we Western Andalusians pronounce the 'h' that comes from a Latin 'f' the same way we pronounce the 'j', but that one is accepted in Standard Spanish as 'j'. Must be the only word in that case.

What about juerga alongside huelga, ultimately from follicāre?

Wow, do they really come from the same Latin word? This is even more interesting, since juerga also has that Andalusian l/r neutralization.
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Re: Cognates

Postby TaylorS » 2014-11-04, 7:42

mōdgethanc wrote:I always found this one to be interesting:

[flag=]ar[/flag] قتل qatala "kill"
[flag=]he[/flag] קָטַל qāṭal "kill"

The Hebrew word has an emphatic /t/ while the Arabic doesn't, and there is no phonological reason why this would be so.
Maybe it is because of the preceding /q/? I know that in Indo-Aryan languages /r/ triggered retroflextion in consonants it wasn't even adjacent to, so maybe it was similar with NW-Semitic /q/.
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Re: Cognates

Postby TaylorS » 2014-11-04, 7:55

Greek: Zeus
Sanskrit: Dyaus (Pitar)
Latin: Jupiter
North Germanic: Tyr
English: Tiw

Proto-Indo-European: *Diēus Ph2tēr [dyəːws pχtəːr] "Father Heaven"
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Re: Cognates

Postby ling » 2014-11-05, 18:22

+Hindi

[flag=]ga[/flag] fear - man
[flag=]gd[/flag] fear - man
[flag=]gv[/flag] fer - man
[flag=]en[/flag] werewolf
[flag=]is[/flag] ver - man, husband
[flag=]la[/flag] vir - man
[flag=]lv[/flag] vīrs - man, husband
[flag=]lt[/flag] výras - man, husband
[flag=]in[/flag] वीर vīra - heroic
Native: [flag=]en[/flag] Advanced: [flag=]zh[/flag] Actively studying: [flag=]th[/flag][flag=]id[/flag] Passively dabbling: [flag=]lkt[/flag]

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Re: Cognates

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-11-05, 18:31

TaylorS wrote:Maybe it is because of the preceding /q/? I know that in Indo-Aryan languages /r/ triggered retroflextion in consonants it wasn't even adjacent to, so maybe it was similar with NW-Semitic /q/.
But I can't think of any other words where this happens. If they were right next to each other, that wouldn't be so odd, but in Hebrew it's (far as I can tell) highly unusual.


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