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Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-20, 6:36
by Michael
(sq) mëlçi liver < PA *mil(i̯)tiā
(it) milza spleen (Germanic loanword)
(de) Milz spleen
(sv) mjälte spleen
(en) milt spleen, esp. of an animal bred for food; fish semen

From PIE *(s)meld- "to beat, grind, crush, weaken".

Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-20, 17:40
by vijayjohn
Michael wrote:(ro) învăța id.

If my understanding of Romanian (grammar) is correct, that should be a învăța.

Persian (fa) باده bâde - wine, must (not fully fermented grape juice/wine)
Mandarin Chinese (zh) 葡萄 pútáo - grape

Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-21, 2:33
by Michael
(sq) stuhi, -a, -Ø(të) storm
(grc) στοιχεῖον [stoikheîon] element, sprit

(grc) στοῖχος [stoîkhos] row in an ascending series, file (of soldiers), turn
(sq) shteg, -u, shtigje(t) path < PA *staiga
(got) staiga id.
(en) stair
(en_old) stǣġer f id. < PG *staigriz
(nl) steiger id.
(ga) staighre id. (loanword from ME staire)
(en_old) stīġan to climb

All from PIE *steygʰ- "to go, rise, step, walk, stride".

Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-22, 20:13
by linguoboy
(ru) сорок sorok "forty"
(tr) kırk "forty"

Did not see that one coming.

Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-23, 5:03
by vijayjohn
More fun with Turkish!

Arabic (ar) بَدَلَ‏ badala 'to replace'
Turkish (tr)Serbian (sr) budala 'idiot'
Urdu (ur) بدلنا/Hindi (hi) बदलना badalnā [bəˈd̪əlna] 'to change'

Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-23, 9:50
by OldBoring
vijayjohn wrote:Mandarin Chinese (zh) 葡萄 pútáo - grape

Are you Taiwanese? :evil: *pútao

Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-23, 15:21
by księżycowy
OldBoring wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Mandarin Chinese (zh) 葡萄 pútáo - grape

Are you Taiwanese? :evil: *pútao

I think this summer is going to be fun. :P

Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-24, 20:21
by vijayjohn
I often fail to realize that some words have neutral tones because my sources are inconsistent about which words do and don't. :P

EDIT:
English (en) authentic
English (en) effendi
Greek (el) αφέντης aféntis - master, boss, ruler, prince
Turkish (tr) efendi - master, sir

Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-25, 12:49
by atalarikt
Tahitian (ty) tatau to write
Javanese (jv) tatu scar, wound
English (en) tattoo a form of a body modification where a design is painted into a person's body

Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-25, 21:28
by OldBoring
vijayjohn wrote:I often fail to realize that some words have neutral tones because my sources are inconsistent about which words do and don't. :P

I think some dictionaries mechanically put the pinyin of every hanzi, independently of context, so they ignore the neutral tones, and are also bad at picking the correct reading with duoyinzi.
As a general rule, if the second element doesn't add meaning to the compound, it's almost always neutral.

Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-26, 3:40
by vijayjohn
OldBoring wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:I often fail to realize that some words have neutral tones because my sources are inconsistent about which words do and don't. :P

I think some dictionaries mechanically put the pinyin of every hanzi, independently of context, so they ignore the neutral tones, and are also bad at picking the correct reading with duoyinzi.
As a general rule, if the second element doesn't add meaning to the compound, it's almost always neutral.

No, it's not. 读书、 写字、 游泳、 哪儿、 蝴蝶、 国家、 醉酒、 可以、 吃饭、 早上、 常常、 葡萄干、 命运、 增加...

And it's not just dictionaries. Textbooks and grammars disagree on which syllables in which words have neutral tones.

Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-26, 6:12
by OldBoring
What are those? Examples of compounds with neutral tones or without?

Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-26, 16:03
by vijayjohn
Without. You said:
As a general rule, if the second element doesn't add meaning to the compound, it's almost always neutral.

But in all of those (and lots more), the second element doesn't add meaning to the compound, yet it's not neutral.

Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-28, 18:30
by OldBoring
For me 可以 is definitely neutral, 蝴蝶 is neutral, the second character in 葡萄干 is neutral, 常常 can be optionally neutral.
Many northerners pronounce 早上 as neutral. 命运 both are ok.

So yeah, there's no fixed rule. A lot of regional, individual, and free variation.

Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-28, 18:32
by vijayjohn
Like everything else in Mandarin Chinese. This is the part of Chinese that I think I usually find the hardest (when I seriously think about it, that is). :D (Of course, there's plenty of variation in lots of other languages, too. It just tends to be documented better in European languages).

Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-28, 22:23
by Michael
(sq-aln) shta/j, -na, -Ø to be stable, stop
(nap) štà to be (temporary), stay [↑št/iengo, -iette, -ato]
(it) stare id. [↑st/o, -etti, -ato] (but used less in Italian than in Neapolitan)
(la) stāre id. [↑st/ō, -etī, -atum]
(es) estar id. [↑est/oy, -uve, -ado]
(pt) estar id. [↑est/ou, -ive, -ado]

All from from PIE *steh₂- "to stand, set, lay".

(sq) fyt, -i, -e throat < PA *spūta
(la) spuere to spit
(nap) sputuà id.
(grc) πτύω [ptýo] id.
(en) to spew
(en_old) spīwan

Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-30, 1:26
by IpseDixit
Michael wrote:(sq-aln) shta/j, -na, -Ø to be stable, stop
(nap) štà to be (temporary), stay [↑št/iengo, -iette, -ato]
(it) stare id. [↑st/o, -etti, -ato]


Just wanted to point out that in Italian "stare" has the meaning of a temporary "to be" only in non standard varieties of Southern Italy. In its standard, normative form, it only means "stay" / "remain" / "live" (in a place).

Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-30, 8:36
by Saim
Michael wrote:(sq-aln) shta/j, -na, -Ø to be stable, stop
(nap) štà to be (temporary), stay [↑št/iengo, -iette, -ato]
(it) stare id. [↑st/o, -etti, -ato] (but used less in Italian than in Neapolitan)
(la) stāre id. [↑st/ō, -etī, -atum]
(es) estar id. [↑est/oy, -uve, -ado]
(pt) estar id. [↑est/ou, -ive, -ado]


(sr) stati/stajati to stand, to stop
(pl) postać/stać to stand, to stop
(ru) постоять/стоять to stand, to stop

Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-31, 0:53
by vijayjohn
Pashto (ps) ژرنده jranda - mill
Western Punjabi (pa.Arab) جندر jandar - mill
Pashto (ps) جندره jandra - padlock
Western Punjabi (pa.Arab) جندرا jandrā - padlock
Malayalam (ml) യന്ത്രം [jən̪ˈd̪rəm] - machine, device

Both of the Pashto words were borrowed from Western Punjabi but at different times, and both of the Punjabi words come from the same Sanskrit word. The Malayalam word is (nearly) identical to the Sanskrit word it's borrowed from.

Re: Cognates

Posted: 2018-01-31, 1:17
by IpseDixit
vijayjohn wrote:Pashto (ps) ژرنده jranda - mill
Western Punjabi (pa.Arab) جندر jandar - mill
Pashto (ps) جندره jandra - padlock
Western Punjabi (pa.Arab) جندرا jandrā - padlock
Malayalam (ml) യന്ത്രം [jən̪ˈd̪rəm] - machine, device

Both of the Pashto words were borrowed from Western Punjabi but at different times, and both of the Punjabi words come from the same Sanskrit word. The Malayalam word is (nearly) identical to the Sanskrit word it's borrowed from.


I wonder if they have anything to do with "veranda".