Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

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razlem
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Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby razlem » 2014-08-07, 17:40

I overgeneralize my ablauts sometimes.

bring, brang, brung
drag, drug

When someone calls me out I just say it's dialectal and they still understood it, so it's right.
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Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-08-07, 17:49

razlem wrote:I overgeneralize my ablauts sometimes.

bring, brang, brung
drag, drug

When someone calls me out I just say it's dialectal and they still understood it, so it's right.


Me and my girlfriend do this as a joke a lot, with both verbs and nouns (plurals). Sometimes, with verbs, I can't decide which actually sounds more correct to me.

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Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby Koko » 2014-08-07, 19:03

razlem wrote:I overgeneralize my ablauts sometimes.

bring, brang, brung
drag, drug

When someone calls me out I just say it's dialectal and they still understood it, so it's right.

I think I sometimes do this, but not for "bring" or "think" (thunk).

My most famous is drink drank drunk:

I drink the water. I drank the water. I've drunk water.

I think that for "drunk"… should it be "dranken?"

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Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby Dormouse559 » 2014-08-07, 19:44

No, "drunk" is correct. It's just like "sing".
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Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby Koko » 2014-08-07, 21:54

Really? To many around me it sounds odd… but I don't think so.

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Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby linguoboy » 2014-08-07, 22:05

Koko wrote:Really? To many around me it sounds odd… but I don't think so.

And dranken sounds better? For reals like?
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Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby Koko » 2014-08-07, 22:42

Not really. Nvm. I'm probably just mistaking the verb forms of to drink for another thing that I do that (is indeed) not regular. I can't think of what it is, though…

Koko

Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby Koko » 2015-07-11, 6:00

Wait! I know what I got wrong: I had the two participles switched, I sometimes say/think of saying "dranken" instead of drunk :blush:

I also tend to want to say "pucked" as the preterite of "pick." Similarly, I almost always say "arrove" and so I want to say "arriven" :twisted:

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Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby TeneReef » 2015-07-11, 7:56

SLAY

Shorter OED:
slay, slew or (non-standard) slayed, slain

Canadian Oxford Dictionary and New Oxford American dictionary:
slay, slew, slain

Merriam Webster Learner's Dictionary:
slay; slew also slayed, slain


but many people use it like this> slay, slayed, slayed


— "slayed cannot be considered established in such use. Whether it eventually becomes established remains to be seen." — 1994, Merriam-Webster Publishing Co., “slay”, in Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage[1], ISBN 0877791325,

Google Ngram viewer:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?c ... in%3B%2Cc0

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?c ... in%3B%2Cc0
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Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby Koko » 2015-07-11, 8:24

Only the posh would use "slew." Or those writing stories set in the Middle Ages and the likes.

Well, since slay isn't very common, I doubt "slew" is really out of style (any more than slay).

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Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby Dormouse559 » 2015-07-11, 15:26

I would definitely accept "slayed" when "slay" is used to mean "do a great job (on)" or in one of its other colloquial meanings. I feel like I heard this from time to time on American Idol: "You slayed that song".
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Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby TeneReef » 2015-07-11, 20:57

The song was slayed or slain? :hmm:
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Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby Ser » 2015-07-12, 17:54

My speech in Spanish, as it is, is quite close to the standard. In fact, I can hardly think of any case where I don't follow The Rules at the moment. It's not that I try to "speak correctly", I just happen to speak that way. :P I even use the y/e and o/u alternations naturally, since most of the kids I grew up with (except for like two or three of them) used the alternations too.

I guess something could be said about me using le without number agreement with a following indirect object NP (including pronouns): a ellos les dije, a mis tíos les dije, but le dije a ellos, le dije a mis tíos. But it's not a big deal: the Academies say this is widespread in both Spain and the Americas, "even among educated speakers".

EDIT: Oh, I'm one of those speakers who say habemos cuatro for 'there's four of us here', 'right now we're four', instead of estamos/somos cuatro. The Academies do say this is not educated usage.

I also don't use «» as the Academies say I should. But it's pretty much normative practice in El Salvador to ignore what the Academies say on punctuation (especially on quotation marks), so it doesn't matter.

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Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby Ser » 2015-07-12, 18:02

loqu wrote:
Marah wrote:There's also "la voiture à Julien" which should be "la voiture de Julien" from a prescriptivist POV.
What? I mean, every book of French as a second language I've seen, teaches la voiture à Julien, while la voiture de Julien is news to me :o I had no idea about that.

I've never seen a textbook teach that; they teach noun de noun.

They do teach noun à pronoun though: une voiture à moi.

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Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-07-12, 18:41

Serafín wrote:
loqu wrote:
Marah wrote:There's also "la voiture à Julien" which should be "la voiture de Julien" from a prescriptivist POV.
What? I mean, every book of French as a second language I've seen, teaches la voiture à Julien, while la voiture de Julien is news to me :o I had no idea about that.

I've never seen a textbook teach that; they teach noun de noun.

They do teach noun à pronoun though: une voiture à moi.

It's okay, I just looked back over the discussion we had about it earlier, and I think we came to the conclusion that he was probably thinking of something like Cette voiture est à moi. :P

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Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby suruvaippa » 2015-11-25, 17:46

This is so common nowadays that I'm not sure it even counts as "ignoring the rules" any longer, but I often use "they" as a third person singular pronoun.
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Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby Marah » 2015-11-25, 17:58

I thought it was the rule, that's what they teach us now at university and if you write something different during an exam they'll probably consider it a mistake.
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Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby Johanna » 2015-11-25, 18:15

suruvaippa wrote:This is so common nowadays that I'm not sure it even counts as "ignoring the rules" any longer, but I often use "they" as a third person singular pronoun.

Don't even get me started on English, it has so many rules that pretty much boils down to "a bunch of douchebag grammarians a couple of century ago thought Latin was divine or something so English should work exactly like it. Oh, and it should be perfectly logical while we're at it."

Which has led to stupid things like declaring that "me and my sister did whatever" is seen as wrong by grammar nazis, as is splitting infinitives* and ending a sentence with a preposition**.

* Yep, according to those the famous Star Trek quote To boldly go where no man has gone before is wrong, and instead it should be To go boldly... As if that is even half as elegant.

** Ignoring the tiny little detail that unlike Latin, English has something called phrasal verbs, made up from a main verb and a particle that's usually a preposition, and that particle usually has to follow the main verb, so there's very little chance of ending a sentence with such a verb without nominally ending it in a preposition. Not to mention that ending a sentence in an actual preposition is something English has done for centuries, if not millennia.

About using singular "they", Shakespeare did it and if it was good enough for him, it's good enough for me. It belongs to that "English has to be perfectly logical" group of nonsense rules that I'm perfectly happy to ignore.
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Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby Aurinĭa » 2015-11-25, 18:56

Johanna wrote:Which has led to stupid things like declaring that "me and my sister did whatever" is seen as wrong by grammar nazis, as is splitting infinitives* and ending a sentence with a preposition**.

That first example doesn't fit in with the other examples. It has nothing to do with Latin influence; it's simply putting an object form into a subject place. I split infinitives and end sentences with a preposition when necessary, basically whichever way sounds best. I use singular "they" all the time. But things like "me and my sister did x" and "with my sister and I" - I can't stand them. They're wrong. Call me a prescriptivist grammar nazi if you like.

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Re: Descriptivist rage - When do you decide to ignore the rules?

Postby OldBoring » 2015-11-25, 19:01

According to what I read sometime ago, "me and X" is accepted by most grammarians nowadays, while "I and X" is considered wrong. Either "me and X" or "X and I".
I agree that "with X and I" looks plain wrong to me and is a result of hypercorrection, but many native English speakers say so.


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