Linguistics thread

[Vlürch]

But no, it pretty much just means they had a cow and grew some plants. Owning a cow involves a lot of work! The typical Malayalee house is basically surrounded by a mini-jungle misleadingly called a "garden," except in the front (definitely not in the front these days since people have driveways!).

That's cool, at least as long as the mini-jungle isn't filled with mosquitoes...

There's also less fields left than when I was a kid because people (including my brothers) have bought land from us and built a house there. The place is starting to look less and less like countryside, though there are still lots of fields and forests nearby.

There's still a lot of trees in Roihuvuori, including a small forest area around the watertower, but they're also being cut for literally no reason other than to make a random road with a dead end. How the fuck does that even make sense!? If it was a road that cut through the forest to connect two roads that weren't connected before, that would still be annoying and sad since it's destruction of nature, but at least there would be a point to it. Just cutting down trees for no reason? Why?! And pretty much everyone was against the destruction of the forest back when there was like a vote on it, but of course, that was ignored... well, the project was put on hold for a couple of years, but I guess after some time had passed, the Big Deciders realised they didn't need to ask people's permission because they're not building houses like they originally planned. I guess it's government-owned land, anyway, so they can do whatever they want with it, but still, what's the point of cutting up trees and not even building anything?

Maybe there are more rules than irregularities?

Maybe? I also prefer to learn by heart rather than by using logic. Eg. I know that it's в школу when you're going to school but в школе when you're in/at school, but I have no idea what those cases are. It was quite annoying when my teacher didn't accept that as an answer, we had to know the case. If you tried to give the answer as it is, he would always say "yes, but what's the case you use here with в?" but if you answered with nothing but the name of the case like "genitive" or "accusative", he was happy to accept it.

I guess I could try that approach, just learning the translations of phrases and whatnot, since anything idiomatic always throws me off the loop no matter what; maybe not learning the literal meaning or trying to find the logic behind them would help with that.

Depends on where they lived. My dad's family has lived in Southern Ostrobothnia for hundreds of years so I think it was somewhat easy to find their names. I don't think that'd be the case with my mother's mother's family because she herself is from that part of Karelia that now belongs to Russia. Even though I know where she was born, the parish registers must've been lost or destroyed by now. :/ And her ancestors, then... it gets even harder because I don't even know if there's been any registers like that in other countries. Even if there were, I wouldn't know where to look from other than "Sweden" and "Poland" which doesn't help much.

It's kinda funny how there are people in other countries who can trace their entire ancestry to like the middle ages or even earlier and find their relatives around the world, but in Finland often having a general idea of where one's great grandparents were born is considered in-depth knowledge... or at least that's the impression I've gotten.

She didn't know about Proto-Uralic language at all. That's why I would've expected her to believe that Finnish belongs to "Scandinavian language family" or something like that, but no, even she knew that it's related to Estonian and Hungarian. I don't remember if she called them Uralic or Finno-Ugric but in any case, she hadn't thought that it means they've been one and the same language long ago.

Interesting.

Hungarian grammar is like Finland on all the drugs in the world

So if you take Finnish and add some alcohol, you get Estonian, and if you add drugs, you get Hungarian?

Basically.

You'd still better lengthen the trill, though, because otherwise it could be interpreted as *keros, which isn't a meaningful word, but... well, it'd just sound weird

Actually, it is the (spoken Finnish) inessive of kero. I don't really know how to translate that into English. The treeless top of mountains in Lapland?

Huh, that's a weird ass word and so specific, no wonder I didn't know it.

You're reminding me of a Tlingit video I was watching on YouTube just this morning. I happened to turn on the English cc, thinking it would give me an English translation. Nope. It was "recognizing" the Tlingit as English and giving some sort of weird, drug-induced string of unrelated words. I think it broke the system, quite frankly.

Yeah, closed captions can be hilarious.

[vijayjohn]

That's cool, at least as long as the mini-jungle isn't filled with mosquitoes...

There are mosquitoes everywhere in Kerala. Even on the plane going there, there are mosquitoes.

[aaakknu]

Is there sth similar to the Swadesh list, but designed specifically for comparison of sign languages?

[vijayjohn]

Well, there is this.

[aaakknu]

Are there other languages that use the structure which is used in the following English sentences?
I want him to come.
I expect him to do this.
How is it called?

In other languages I know, it is expressed with a subordinate clause:
Я хочу, щоб він прийшов.
Ma tahan, et ta tuleks.
Yo quiero que él venga.

However, in Estonian, a similar construction is used with such verbs as "arvama" (to think, to consider) and "tunduma" (to seem):

Ma arvan teda teadvat.
More or less literal translation: I think him to know.
I think he knows.
(Although it is also possible to say: Ma arvan, et ta teab).

Ta tundub teadvat.
He seems to know.
(Also: Tundub, et ta teab. - It seems that he knows).
But perhaps this sentence is not the right example, because it has only one subject.
Anyway, the first variant ("he seems to know") is not possible in Ukrainian, only the second one ("здається, що він знає" - "it seems that he knows").

[Naava]

Are there other languages that use the structure which is used in the following English sentences?
I want him to come.
I expect him to do this.
How is it called?

Well, you can use a non-subordinate clause in Finnish, although it's not an infinite verb like in English:

Haluan hänen tulevan.
Odotan hänen tekevän tämän.

I think it's called participial phrase in English. I'm not sure but it looks like it has the VA-participle (also known as II participle).

//Edit:
You can use this to translate the other examples you gave, too:
I think he knows. - Luulen hänen tietävän.
He seems to know. - Hän tuntuu tietävän.

[vijayjohn]

No, a participial phrase would be something like bristling with anger, he marched straight into the room. I think this phenomenon is called object control in English, but "he seems to know" is a different phenomenon and called "subject control" or something (I'm probably forgetting the right term for that); I'll have to check my favorite syntax textbook again to make sure, though. I'm pretty sure this also happens in Latin and, to some extent, some other Germanic languages.

[aaakknu]

I think it's called participial phrase in English. I'm not sure but it looks like it has the VA-participle (also known as II participle).

I've read in a grammar of Estonian that it's called third infinitive. It is identical in form with the quotative mood and active participle in the accusative case.

[Naava]

No, a participial phrase would be something like bristling with anger, he marched straight into the room.

I meant the Finnish sentences (although it seems you were right, it's probably not a participial phrase in Finnish either). I have no idea if the English structure is subject control or not. I just wanted to give an example of an alternative for a relative clause because Irusia gave a similar example in Estonian.

I've read in a grammar of Estonian that it's called third infinitive.

Oh, you're right!! Thanks! It's the second infinitive (& instructive) in Finnish, not a participle like I thought.

But are you sure it was the third infinitive? Wikipedia says the third one is MA, and there's no -ma- in your examples.

[aaakknu]

But are you sure it was the third infinitive? Wikipedia says the third one is MA, and there's no -ma- in your examples.

Yes, you are right. I just read about it some time ago and forgot how it is called exactly.
I checked it in the grammar:
"Eesti keeles on pöördsõnal järgmised infiniitvormid:
1. substantiivile lähedased tegevusnimed: da-infinitiiv, vat-infinitiiv ja supiin ehk ma-tegevusnimi oma käändevormidega".
"Eesti keele grammatika I. Morfoloogia. Sõnamoodustus", p. 64

Edit: the grammar is available here: http://portaal.eki.ee/keelekogud.html

[aaakknu]

I found out how it is called.
In the sentence "I want them to come" it is raising to object and in the sentence "He seems to know" it is raising to subject.

[kevin]

I'm pretty sure this also happens in Latin and, to some extent, some other Germanic languages.

For Latin, this is just good old ACI (accusativus cum infinitivo), right?

German can use this construction only for some verbs of perception (like "I see him come"), but not for wishes like in English.

[vijayjohn]

I'm pretty sure this also happens in Latin and, to some extent, some other Germanic languages.

For Latin, this is just good old ACI (accusativus cum infinitivo), right?

I think so, yes. I think Irusia's also right about "raising" being the right term. (I'm too lazy to check because there are currently so many things I'd love to post on this forum, except that I have to put quite a bit of effort into said posts ).

[linguoboy]

I'm pretty sure this also happens in Latin and, to some extent, some other Germanic languages.

For Latin, this is just good old ACI (accusativus cum infinitivo), right?

Apparently that terminology can be used for English as well.

[aaakknu]

Can somebody explain me in simple words what is deep structure and surface structure in generative grammar?

[vijayjohn]

Basically, deep structure is the way a syntax tree looks in our brains according to Generative Grammar, and surface structure is what we actually produce.

[IpseDixit]

Does anybody know whether Latin forma is a metathesis of Greek μορφή?

[vijayjohn]

Apparently, its etymology is unknown, but there is a theory that it's somehow related to μορφή. Wiktionary seems to suggest that it may have been borrowed into Latin via an Etruscan form *morma, in which case I guess there was a change of *pʰ > /m/, then another from Etruscan into Latin of *m > /f/.

[Bubulus]

De Vaan further points to similar correspondences of Latin f...rm with foreign m...rm in formīca 'ant' ~ Greek myrmēks and formīdō 'fear; religious awe; terrifying thing' ~ Greek mormō 'terrifying thing, monster'. If Etruscan modified the word into *morma it is quite possible fōrma and morphē are related.

[IpseDixit]

Thanks for the info