Linguistics thread

[Lur]

I also like how the verbs are, they're simple

So how long have you been studying Finnish?

Formally, only a month, actually I'm actually quite happy that I feel able to study something formally again instead of navel gazing.

Note: "simple" means "it seems regular and doesn't indicate direct and indirect object"

[vijayjohn]

But I'm only used to adding the -udaiya (ex. paiyanudaiya to nouns.

Yeah, that's all I've ever seen, too, which is why I don't get why -atu is a genitive suffix. I've told you this before, but I find a lot of claims in the literature about Tamil odd or suspicious.

On a separate note, I only relatively recently learned that spoken Indian Tamil uses nasalized vowels.

I actually told you that ages ago. But I only brought it up like once or twice or something.

Note: "simple" means "it seems regular and doesn't indicate direct and indirect object"

So simpler than Basque?

[dEhiN]

But I'm only used to adding the -udaiya (ex. paiyanudaiya to nouns.

Yeah, that's all I've ever seen, too, which is why I don't get why -atu is a genitive suffix. I've told you this before, but I find a lot of claims in the literature about Tamil odd or suspicious.

Yeah, I'm starting to realize that not all claims in Tamil grammar literature can be trusted.

On a separate note, I only relatively recently learned that spoken Indian Tamil uses nasalized vowels.

I actually told you that ages ago. But I only brought it up like once or twice or something.

Yeah it's not you, it's me! Many friends have told me many things over the years and I've either forgotten them or never remembered even being told in the first place!

Even though I don't know a lot of Tamil, I'm still fairly used to spoken Sri Lankan Tamil (though, to be fair, as spoken by the SLT diaspora here in Toronto). So it still amazes me the way that Indian Tamil is spoken sometimes. Like how I recently learned the word /iɭəm/ and the guy who wrote it, did so in an explanation of the way ள and ல are typically anglicised. But then he wrote eLam as the anglicised version, to which I responded "is it இளம் or எளம்". Apparently Indian Tamils say it as /eɭəm/ which is why they write it that way! Meanwhile, for me <e> only means எ or maybe ஏ. I keep having to ask, in these groups, for the Literary Tamil way just so I know the right word.

[Lur]

Note: "simple" means "it seems regular and doesn't indicate direct and indirect object"

So simpler than Basque?

Actually outside the handful of strong verbs (most of which are literary nowadays, but they sound really cute) the Basque verb is regular... things get funny with regional variation though.

Polipersonality, on the other hand, isn't as popular among languages of the world as it should

[vijayjohn]

Yeah, I meant polypersonal verbs. I kinda knew that about the regularity.

Yeah it's not you, it's me! Many friends have told me many things over the years and I've either forgotten them or never remembered even being told in the first place!

That's okay. I do that, too.

Even though I don't know a lot of Tamil, I'm still fairly used to spoken Sri Lankan Tamil (though, to be fair, as spoken by the SLT diaspora here in Toronto). So it still amazes me the way that Indian Tamil is spoken sometimes. Like how I recently learned the word /iɭəm/ and the guy who wrote it, did so in an explanation of the way ள and ல are typically anglicised. But then he wrote eLam as the anglicised version, to which I responded "is it இளம் or எளம்". Apparently Indian Tamils say it as /eɭəm/ which is why they write it that way!

The [i]~[e] alternation is pretty common in both Tamil and Malayalam, as is the [o]~[u] alternation.

[Vlürch]

I also like how the verbs are, they're simple

So how long have you been studying Finnish?

Formally, only a month, actually I'm actually quite happy that I feel able to study something formally again instead of navel gazing.

Note: "simple" means "it seems regular and doesn't indicate direct and indirect object"

Yeah, Finnish is pretty simple compared to most languages AFAIK. We Finns just tend to take it kinda personally when others point that out, since we're taught from the day we're born that Finnish is the hardest and most complex language in the world, and when we discover that that's not actually true... well, it can be hard to swallow.

Yeah it's not you, it's me! Many friends have told me many things over the years and I've either forgotten them or never remembered even being told in the first place!

That's okay. I do that, too.

Same. Some things, I remember in detail about some languages and other things, but the vast majority of everything... nope.

Polipersonality, on the other hand, isn't as popular among languages of the world as it should

Polypersonal agreement is really interesting. Every time I read about it, I feel like making a conlang with it, but then I get disappointed at whatever I come up with, considering the fact that I suck at conlanging almost as much as I suck at learning actual languages.

[vijayjohn]

Vlürch, have you ever considered trying to learn a language really closely related to Finnish, like Veps, Karelian, Estonian, or something? Or a creole? Perhaps an English-based one?

we're taught from the day we're born that Finnish is the hardest and most complex language in the world

Seriously? Yeesh.

[Vlürch]

Vlürch, have you ever considered trying to learn a language really closely related to Finnish, like Veps, Karelian, Estonian, or something?

Yeah, but there isn't that much material available on them as far as I could ever find when I've wanderlusted them. A lot of what I've found were just explaining how they're different from Finnish and treating them in a similar way to descriptions of Finnish dialects, but not really what makes them unique languages. No vocabulary lists or anything, just stuff going on and on about phonological and orthographic quirks. Of course, not everything about them is like that, but most seems to be.

Estonian is the exception to this, I guess, but it's also the one that interests me the least because it's honestly impossible to hear it or see it written and not think of it as bastardised Finnish as spoken by homeless drunks or mentally retarded people. It just sounds so much like how those groups of people speak, even though I know that's probably a really offensive stereotype to Estonians... but it is a stereotype, and the thing is, it sounds like it. If I drank alcohol, I'd probably love Estonian, but I don't, so... I mean, I don't dislike it or anything, but it just sounds funny.

Karelian would be interesting to learn since a lot of my family originated from Karelia. My mum's father came as a child from a town that now belongs to Russia, although I don't know if he knew Karelian or not, or if all my ancestors are Finnish (my mum's side of the family believes they have some Native American ancestry but have no idea of the specifics, and I'm pretty sure it's not true because how could it be? I mean, I used to take my mum's word for it until recently, but... I don't know), or if we have some other ancestry that explains why most of my mum's side of the family looks "Asian" (or if it's just ancient Finnish genes from before the mixing with Indo-European peoples popping up; of course, this is the most likely explanation (or some random Tatar or Mongol or whatever somewhere up the line), but I personally don't really care... I'm just jealous of their epicanthic folds tbh).

...but after all that rambling, my point is, all the Karelian dialects/languages seem interesting. If there was enough material that went in depth and dealt with their grammar in a way that's descriptive of them rather than simply how they differ from Finnish using regular correspondences, I'd definitely wanderlust for weeks or even months. I mean, sure, it's easier to just go "oh, so when you have this in Finnish, you'll have that in Karelian" or whatever, but it's boring.

Or a creole? Perhaps an English-based one?

Not really. They just don't seem interesting enough, and tend to be spoken in regions that I have very little interest in to begin with.

we're taught from the day we're born that Finnish is the hardest and most complex language in the world

Seriously? Yeesh.

Yeah, it's kinda ridiculous. I'm not sure if it's still something kids learn from their parents and at school, or if it's been changed in the last decade or whatever, but either way that's still the mindset a lot of Finns have (probably the majority). Another belief that's common is that Finnish is a Germanic language related to Swedish, Norwegian and Danish, or that it's a Germanic-Slavic creole. Some even think it's a Slavic language, but I don't think that's common; I mean, a lot of Finns go on and on about "our Slavic heritage" and "Slavic melancholy", but I'm pretty sure they know that we're not Slavs, only influenced by Russians and other (Balto-)Slavic peoples throughout history.

[vijayjohn]

Estonian is the exception to this, I guess, but it's also the one that interests me the least because it's honestly impossible to hear it or see it written and not think of it as bastardised Finnish as spoken by homeless drunks or mentally retarded people. It just sounds so much like how those groups of people speak, even though I know that's probably a really offensive stereotype to Estonians... but it is a stereotype, and the thing is, it sounds like it. If I drank alcohol, I'd probably love Estonian, but I don't, so... I mean, I don't dislike it or anything, but it just sounds funny.

Well hey, Tamil sounds like funny Malayalam to me sometimes! I'd totally learn that. (But to be fair, I never really did make an effort to learn it that lasted long. I hope I will someday). Malayalam sounds like funny Tamil to Tamils, too, AFAIK.

all the Karelian dialects/languages seem interesting. If there was enough material that went in depth and dealt with their grammar in a way that's descriptive of them rather than simply how they differ from Finnish using regular correspondences, I'd definitely wanderlust for weeks or even months. I mean, sure, it's easier to just go "oh, so when you have this in Finnish, you'll have that in Karelian" or whatever, but it's boring.

Have you by any chance seen these?

Not really. They just don't seem interesting enough, and tend to be spoken in regions that I have very little interest in to begin with.

I don't think we talk about creoles much on this forum, but creoles are lots of fun! And it might make me less lonely on the creole languages forum if you were interested in learning one. Oh, and there's stuff like...Cappadocian Greek...which isn't really a creole, but oh well, I tried.

Yeah, it's kinda ridiculous. I'm not sure if it's still something kids learn from their parents and at school, or if it's been changed in the last decade or whatever, but either way that's still the mindset a lot of Finns have (probably the majority).

Oh, yeah. Malayalees think Malayalam is the hardest language in the world or something, too. But I don't think we were taught that in school! But maybe. Who knows.

I'm pretty sure they know that we're not Slavs, only influenced by Russians and other (Balto-)Slavic peoples throughout history.

I hope so!

[Naava]

I also like how the verbs are, they're simple

So how long have you been studying Finnish?

Formally, only a month, actually I'm actually quite happy that I feel able to study something formally again instead of navel gazing.

Haha I knew it! I've noticed that if someone describes a language as 'simple', it's either related to a language they already know, they've learnt it for years, or they've just now began. So far it seems to be true!

Note: "simple" means "it seems regular and doesn't indicate direct and indirect object"

I see! It's true the verbs - and pretty much everything else, too - is highly regular. I don't think you'll ever see 3 pages full of irregular Finnish verbs that make you either cry or laugh hysterically when, after a long day, you see the verb put put put. (This was a real story from the time I was 14. I still think put put put is the best verb ever.)

My own extremely scientific opinion is that long ago, whoever it was who invented Finnish, got tired after all the declinations and conjugations and long words and so they decided that at least it should be regular and somewhat easy to pronounce (like no clusters and so on).

Estonian is the exception to this, I guess, but it's also the one that interests me the least because it's honestly impossible to hear it or see it written and not think of it as bastardised Finnish as spoken by homeless drunks or mentally retarded people.

I wonder what your opinion on Turku dialect is?

my mum's side of the family believes they have some Native American ancestry but have no idea of the specifics, and I'm pretty sure it's not true because how could it be? I mean, I used to take my mum's word for it until recently, but... I don't know

Do you have any relatives who would've gone to America? Dad told me once that my great-grandfather had been there and met some Native Americans who had taught him something about medicine (I've forgotten what it was), although I doubt it's true. Sounds too much like a cool story told to entertain your family and kids...

we're taught from the day we're born that Finnish is the hardest and most complex language in the world

Seriously? Yeesh.

Yeah, it's kinda ridiculous. I'm not sure if it's still something kids learn from their parents and at school, or if it's been changed in the last decade or whatever, but either way that's still the mindset a lot of Finns have (probably the majority).

I wouldn't say we're "taught from the day we're born" but people do believe it's a hard language to learn. I don't think it's completely untrue either: Finnish is quite different from many other European languages, so there's a lot to learn for the native speakers of those languages if they ever choose to learn Finnish, and that's what makes it difficult.

Of course Finnish isn't difficult per se. Imo, what is 'hard and complex' or 'difficult' is so subjective that you can't really compare languages to find the one that's 'the worst to learn for everyone'.

Another belief that's common is that Finnish is a Germanic language related to Swedish, Norwegian and Danish, or that it's a Germanic-Slavic creole. Some even think it's a Slavic language, but I don't think that's common;

Really? I'm surprised because my experience has been quite the opposite. We're taught in schools that Finnish belongs to the Uralic language family, and every time I've seen anyone claiming otherwise on net, there's been a bunch of Finns correcting them. The only ones I've met that have believed Finnish is a 'Scandinavian language' have been foreigners.

I mean, a lot of Finns go on and on about "our Slavic heritage" and "Slavic melancholy", but I'm pretty sure they know that we're not Slavs, only influenced by Russians and other (Balto-)Slavic peoples throughout history.

What? Try to go to South Ostrobothnia and say that again, especially to more or less drunk people, and you'd be lynched.

[Vlürch]

Estonian is the exception to this, I guess, but it's also the one that interests me the least because it's honestly impossible to hear it or see it written and not think of it as bastardised Finnish as spoken by homeless drunks or mentally retarded people. It just sounds so much like how those groups of people speak, even though I know that's probably a really offensive stereotype to Estonians... but it is a stereotype, and the thing is, it sounds like it. If I drank alcohol, I'd probably love Estonian, but I don't, so... I mean, I don't dislike it or anything, but it just sounds funny.

Well hey, Tamil sounds like funny Malayalam to me sometimes! I'd totally learn that. (But to be fair, I never really did make an effort to learn it that lasted long. I hope I will someday). Malayalam sounds like funny Tamil to Tamils, too, AFAIK.

That makes me feel a little better, haha. Maybe I should try to learn the most basic basics of Tamil and Malayalam so that I could make a conlang creole out of them and English just to blaspheme against you...

all the Karelian dialects/languages seem interesting. If there was enough material that went in depth and dealt with their grammar in a way that's descriptive of them rather than simply how they differ from Finnish using regular correspondences, I'd definitely wanderlust for weeks or even months. I mean, sure, it's easier to just go "oh, so when you have this in Finnish, you'll have that in Karelian" or whatever, but it's boring.

Have you by any chance seen these?

Somehow, I hadn't. Thanks!

Not really. They just don't seem interesting enough, and tend to be spoken in regions that I have very little interest in to begin with.

I don't think we talk about creoles much on this forum, but creoles are lots of fun! And it might make me less lonely on the creole languages forum if you were interested in learning one.

It's probably partially because creoles tend to be simpler than the source languages, and as such not as "languagey". I read a little bit on Wikipedia about various creoles, and this made me lol because I read it as "lol" and thought that was some kind of particle in Manglish, but apparently it was just "lo".

Oh, and there's stuff like...Cappadocian Greek...which isn't really a creole, but oh well, I tried.

WHAT!!! Cappadocian Greek isn't extinct? Now I'm wanderlusting that shit. Do you have any idea if this dictionary is accurate? It has a bunch of languages, including Cappadocian Greek, although only maybe fifty or so words.

Yeah, it's kinda ridiculous. I'm not sure if it's still something kids learn from their parents and at school, or if it's been changed in the last decade or whatever, but either way that's still the mindset a lot of Finns have (probably the majority).

Oh, yeah. Malayalees think Malayalam is the hardest language in the world or something, too. But I don't think we were taught that in school! But maybe. Who knows.

Oh, it wasn't taught in school AFAICR, although it was stressed that Finnish is much harder than English and as such we had no excuse to not learn it perfectly.

I'm pretty sure they know that we're not Slavs, only influenced by Russians and other (Balto-)Slavic peoples throughout history.

I hope so!

If only there was a poll on the subject to determine just what Finns think are our origins... it'd probably be hilarious, depressing and pretty confusing.

Estonian is the exception to this, I guess, but it's also the one that interests me the least because it's honestly impossible to hear it or see it written and not think of it as bastardised Finnish as spoken by homeless drunks or mentally retarded people.

I wonder what your opinion on Turku dialect is?

It sounds funny but alright, not even half as drunk as Estonian.

my mum's side of the family believes they have some Native American ancestry but have no idea of the specifics, and I'm pretty sure it's not true because how could it be? I mean, I used to take my mum's word for it until recently, but... I don't know

Do you have any relatives who would've gone to America? Dad told me once that my great-grandfather had been there and met some Native Americans who had taught him something about medicine (I've forgotten what it was), although I doubt it's true. Sounds too much like a cool story told to entertain your family and kids...

I have no idea, and neither does my mum; I just asked her, and she just said her dad said it but apparently didn't give any details or anything (or at least she doesn't know or remember).

we're taught from the day we're born that Finnish is the hardest and most complex language in the world

Seriously? Yeesh.

Yeah, it's kinda ridiculous. I'm not sure if it's still something kids learn from their parents and at school, or if it's been changed in the last decade or whatever, but either way that's still the mindset a lot of Finns have (probably the majority).

I wouldn't say we're "taught from the day we're born" but people do believe it's a hard language to learn. I don't think it's completely untrue either: Finnish is quite different from many other European languages, so there's a lot to learn for the native speakers of those languages if they ever choose to learn Finnish, and that's what makes it difficult.

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that the "teaching" of how hard Finnish supposedly is is something we're taught at school by teachers or anything. I probably should've clarified, but well. Anyway, for speakers of Turkic and Tungusic languages Finnish is probably fairly easy, and Hungarians must find it a stroll through the park. Basques, if any wanted to learn Finnish, would likely master it in a week or something simply because of how much more complex their own language is.

Imo, what is 'hard and complex' or 'difficult' is so subjective that you can't really compare languages to find the one that's 'the worst to learn for everyone'.

Not even Navajo...?

Another belief that's common is that Finnish is a Germanic language related to Swedish, Norwegian and Danish, or that it's a Germanic-Slavic creole. Some even think it's a Slavic language, but I don't think that's common;

Really? I'm surprised because my experience has been quite the opposite. We're taught in schools that Finnish belongs to the Uralic language family, and every time I've seen anyone claiming otherwise on net, there's been a bunch of Finns correcting them. The only ones I've met that have believed Finnish is a 'Scandinavian language' have been foreigners.

What kind of super-educated scientists do you interact with? I mean, my family and at least one of my two only real-life friends knows Finnish is Uralic, and it was taught in school, but I've actually seen people online explicitly reject the fact that Finnish is Uralic and reject it as a conspiracy theory, claiming that Finnish is Germanic or whatnot; they've often been self-proclaimed "nationalists" who worship vikings and distort history beyond belief, and real nationalists do generally know that Finnish isn't Indo-European, but I've always bumped into people in various corners of the internet (and when I was a kid, everywhere around me) who were convinced that Finnish is at the very least somehow Indo-European and went on and on about it to the point where before I got interested in linguistics and stuff, I believed it really was an extremely bastardised Scandinavian language.

I mean, a lot of Finns go on and on about "our Slavic heritage" and "Slavic melancholy", but I'm pretty sure they know that we're not Slavs, only influenced by Russians and other (Balto-)Slavic peoples throughout history.

What? Try to go to South Ostrobothnia and say that again, especially to more or less drunk people, and you'd be lynched.

That we've been influenced by Russians and other (Balto-)Slavic peoples throughout history, or "yo we're Slavs"? If the latter, that'd be an understandable reaction, but if the former... well, it's true. You just have to go back to before the Swedes invaded Finland, and especially if you go back far enough to when Finns first arrived in Finland and before that.

[vijayjohn]

That makes me feel a little better, haha. Maybe I should try to learn the most basic basics of Tamil and Malayalam so that I could make a conlang creole out of them and English just to blaspheme against you...

That reminds me that Malayalees say all our bad words come from totally normal Tamil words. For example, there's a word in both languages that means 'mother', but even though it's just one of a few perfectly normal words for 'mother' in Tamil, in Malayalam, it sounds archaic, and people avoid using it especially because that's the word for 'mother' that we use in the word for 'motherfucker'.

Somehow, I hadn't. Thanks!

Ei kestä!

It's probably partially because creoles tend to be simpler than the source languages, and as such not as "languagey". I read a little bit on Wikipedia about various creoles, and this made me lol because I read it as "lol" and thought that was some kind of particle in Manglish, but apparently it was just "lo".

I would say they're not really. I mean, yeah, a lot of the syntax is simplified, but then you run into other complications, like ambiguity. Plus the history is fascinating!

WHAT!!! Cappadocian Greek isn't extinct?

Oh, who knows. I think I've seen conflicting accounts about that, too.

Now I'm wanderlusting that shit. Do you have any idea if this dictionary is accurate? It has a bunch of languages, including Cappadocian Greek, although only maybe fifty or so words.

I don't, sorry.

Hungarians must find it a stroll through the park. Basques, if any wanted to learn Finnish, would likely master it in a week or something simply because of how much more complex their own language is.

Skeptical of all of this. It's not like Malayalam is all that easy, either! Yet I speak barely any Finnish at all.

Not even Navajo...?

Navajo looks pretty easy by my standards.

Another belief that's common is that Finnish is a Germanic language related to Swedish, Norwegian and Danish, or that it's a Germanic-Slavic creole. Some even think it's a Slavic language, but I don't think that's common;

Really? I'm surprised because my experience has been quite the opposite. We're taught in schools that Finnish belongs to the Uralic language family, and every time I've seen anyone claiming otherwise on net, there's been a bunch of Finns correcting them. The only ones I've met that have believed Finnish is a 'Scandinavian language' have been foreigners.

What kind of super-educated scientists do you interact with?

I'm sorry, but it's slightly funny to me when I see you talking to each other and experiencing culture shock despite both being Finns. (Aren't you also both from Helsinki or something?).

[Aurinĭa]

I wouldn't say we're "taught from the day we're born" but people do believe it's a hard language to learn. I don't think it's completely untrue either: Finnish is quite different from many other European languages, so there's a lot to learn for the native speakers of those languages if they ever choose to learn Finnish, and that's what makes it difficult.

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that the "teaching" of how hard Finnish supposedly is is something we're taught at school by teachers or anything. I probably should've clarified, but well. Anyway, for speakers of Turkic and Tungusic languages Finnish is probably fairly easy, and Hungarians must find it a stroll through the park. Basques, if any wanted to learn Finnish, would likely master it in a week or something simply because of how much more complex their own language is.

As someone who has talked about this with Hungarians when they were learning Finnish, no, knowing Hungarian doesn't really help. It only helps in the sense that you don't need to be taught what cases are.
IMHO, Finnish is hard not because of anything related to the language itself, but because you basically have to start from scratch and learn everything. At the same time, it always made 'sense' to me, in a logical way. You learn the rule and you know what to do. I often thought of this somewhat longingly when I was studying Czech and we were told about yet another exception to an exception to a rule.

[Naava]

I have no idea, and neither does my mum; I just asked her, and she just said her dad said it but apparently didn't give any details or anything (or at least she doesn't know or remember).

Try taking a DNA test!

I'd like to take one myself but I don't really have a good reason why; I know where my family comes from so I don't think there would be many great surprises that would blow my mind or something. :/

Basques, if any wanted to learn Finnish, would likely master it in a week or something simply because of how much more complex their own language is.

I... don't really think it works like this. I agree with Aurinĭa:

IMHO, Finnish is hard not because of anything related to the language itself, but because you basically have to start from scratch and learn everything.

Not even Navajo...?

I don't really know anything about Navajo except that it exists. But even so, I doubt everyone would agree on how difficult it is or what it is that makes it difficult to them.

What kind of super-educated scientists do you interact with?

Who said I'm interacting with anyone? I am a Finn after all, I'm not gonna talk with random strangers! I'm stalking comments on language videos on youtube, especially those where someone is learning or trying to speak in language [add what you wish]. Maybe there are others watching these kinds of videos who are interested in linguistics, but it's not like all of them could be super-educated scientists, right?

And then there's my friend who thought that a language can't be Germanic unless it's spoken somewhere near Germany, yet still knew that Finnish is Uralic.

I've actually seen people online explicitly reject the fact that Finnish is Uralic and reject it as a conspiracy theory, claiming that Finnish is Germanic or whatnot; they've often been self-proclaimed "nationalists" who worship vikings and distort history beyond belief

What kind of people do you interact with??

That we've been influenced by Russians and other (Balto-)Slavic peoples throughout history, or "yo we're Slavs"?

It depends on how you phrase it. If you say 'there's Russian influence in the Finnish culture', I don't think people would really care.* But if you start talking about 'our Slavic heritage', it could be interpreted as 'yo we're Slavs'.
Though I'm sure you could find some people who don't see much difference between 'influenced by Russians' and 'we're Slavs' anyway.

*Wasn't there some TV-series about this not so long ago? "How Finland is Russian" and "How Finland is Swedish" or something like that. I don't remember what people thought of those but at least it didn't make the whole world explode.

I'm sorry, but it's slightly funny to me when I see you talking to each other and experiencing culture shock despite both being Finns. (Aren't you also both from Helsinki or something?).

Oh, no, I'm not! I'm from Southern Ostrobothnia, about 400 km to the north of Helsinki. I lived there for 20 years until I moved to Tampere. But there really are some differences within Finland - not like between two countries, of course, but you can notice it. I had something like a culture shock when I moved here even though it's not that far away from my childhood home.

[Vlürch]

For example, there's a word in both languages that means 'mother', but even though it's just one of a few perfectly normal words for 'mother' in Tamil, in Malayalam, it sounds archaic, and people avoid using it especially because that's the word for 'mother' that we use in the word for 'motherfucker'.

അമ്മ / அம்மா or something else?

It's probably partially because creoles tend to be simpler than the source languages, and as such not as "languagey". I read a little bit on Wikipedia about various creoles, and this made me lol because I read it as "lol" and thought that was some kind of particle in Manglish, but apparently it was just "lo".

I would say they're not really. I mean, yeah, a lot of the syntax is simplified, but then you run into other complications, like ambiguity. Plus the history is fascinating!

Since you mentioned ambiguity, this is probably a stupid question, but are creoles more ambiguous than non-creoles, or can it even be generalised like that?

WHAT!!! Cappadocian Greek isn't extinct?

Oh, who knows. I think I've seen conflicting accounts about that, too.

I hope it isn't, just because it seems really interesting. Wikipedia says there are some people in their sixties in Greece that speak it fluently, but apparently none were left in Turkey because they were forced to move to Greece...

Now I'm wanderlusting that shit. Do you have any idea if this dictionary is accurate? It has a bunch of languages, including Cappadocian Greek, although only maybe fifty or so words.

I don't, sorry.

Oh well. The orthography is weird as fuck, which is why I thought it might be a conlang or something; some of the other languages also seem a little sketchy, since at least some of the Hattic terms have no results on Google other than that site. For example, antūḫ (said to mean "human being") only appears on the Palaeolexicon site, a .pdf that references that site and a thing about Linear A on academia.edu that mentions it in support of an idea that sounds pretty interesting and I guess convincing, but might be bullshit; it's only mentioned in passing together with the similar, AFAIK definitively established word for "human" in Hittite, though, so even if it was a made-up word, that wouldn't mean the rest of what he/she wrote is of any less value, if it is of value. I'd like to think it is, but I don't know?

Not even Navajo...?

Navajo looks pretty easy by my standards.

Yeah, but you're Vijay.

I'm sorry, but it's slightly funny to me when I see you talking to each other and experiencing culture shock despite both being Finns. (Aren't you also both from Helsinki or something?).

Yeah, it's kinda funny. It probably has something to do with me being from Roihuvuori, which is basically a not-exactly-wealthy-but-not-really-poor-anymore-either part of eastern Helsinki.

Skeptical of all of this. It's not like Malayalam is all that easy, either! Yet I speak barely any Finnish at all.

As someone who has talked about this with Hungarians when they were learning Finnish, no, knowing Hungarian doesn't really help. It only helps in the sense that you don't need to be taught what cases are.
IMHO, Finnish is hard not because of anything related to the language itself, but because you basically have to start from scratch and learn everything.

Ah, ok.

At the same time, it always made 'sense' to me, in a logical way. You learn the rule and you know what to do. I often thought of this somewhat longingly when I was studying Czech and we were told about yet another exception to an exception to a rule.

Finnish really is logical, kinda like Finns... but THAT'S SAPIR-WHORFIST. Seriously, though, it's probably one of the important reasons why I struggle with basically every language. Irregularities give me nightmares...

I have no idea, and neither does my mum; I just asked her, and she just said her dad said it but apparently didn't give any details or anything (or at least she doesn't know or remember).

Try taking a DNA test!

If I could afford it, I would...

I'd like to take one myself but I don't really have a good reason why; I know where my family comes from so I don't think there would be many great surprises that would blow my mind or something. :/

You never know!

Not even Navajo...?

I don't really know anything about Navajo except that it exists. But even so, I doubt everyone would agree on how difficult it is or what it is that makes it difficult to them.

Of course, and I think someone (linguoboy?) mentioned this already earlier, but it's just that for me it's impossible to even begin wrapping my head around hyperverbal languages like Navajo, so I somehow keep assuming they're literally impossible for everyone. Anyway, it is complex, so for a simple ass person like me, it is impossible... but well, I'm not sure why I make so many generalisations and repeat the same assumptions over and over again, even when I've been corrected on them before... some stick, but... well.

What kind of super-educated scientists do you interact with?

Who said I'm interacting with anyone? I am a Finn after all, I'm not gonna talk with random strangers!

Oh, right. But come to think of it, I feel like this conversation being had online in English really makes it seem less than half as awkward as it would be in Finnish, especially in person...

I'm stalking comments on language videos on youtube, especially those where someone is learning or trying to speak in language [add what you wish]. Maybe there are others watching these kinds of videos who are interested in linguistics, but it's not like all of them could be super-educated scientists, right?

That's one of the environments where those who actually know that Finnish is Uralic come out, and like you said before yourself, they tend to be Finns themselves. However, on some history videos, there have been comments about how Finns are Germanic made by Finns, to which Turks respond "no finns are turkic" and the Finns shit themselves.

On a somewhat related note, everyone seems to think that everyone from the Middle East is an Arab, which somehow includes all of Central Asia and North Africa as well... and I've heard/seen Finns talk about "going to the east on a holiday" and turning out to mean Morocco of all places, which is about as far west as one could go without going to America... and it wasn't long ago that something on TV, although I don't remember in what context, was said about Morocco and it was referred to as being "in the east". Americans are of course the worst when it comes to this; I remember enjoying the film White House Down, but it made me cringe throughout because Iran was called an Arab country or something like that, and IIRC the same error has been made in other big Hollywood movies. Why? Is it some kind of propaganda?

And then there's my friend who thought that a language can't be Germanic unless it's spoken somewhere near Germany, yet still knew that Finnish is Uralic.

Well, depending on how the size and distances of Europe are defined, Finland may not be spoken anywhere near Germany, so I guess that would've made sense even if he had thought that all languages spoken anywhere near Germany were Germanic.

I've actually seen people online explicitly reject the fact that Finnish is Uralic and reject it as a conspiracy theory, claiming that Finnish is Germanic or whatnot; they've often been self-proclaimed "nationalists" who worship vikings and distort history beyond belief

What kind of people do you interact with??

I'm starting to wonder that, myself...

That we've been influenced by Russians and other (Balto-)Slavic peoples throughout history, or "yo we're Slavs"?

It depends on how you phrase it. If you say 'there's Russian influence in the Finnish culture', I don't think people would really care.* But if you start talking about 'our Slavic heritage', it could be interpreted as 'yo we're Slavs'.
Though I'm sure you could find some people who don't see much difference between 'influenced by Russians' and 'we're Slavs' anyway.

Mmm, yeah. The talk of "Slavic heritage" pisses me off, too, but thankfully it's not too common; I think it's more common when it comes to music and art in general, in which it admittedly is a little more true than most issues. Maybe I'm just overgeneralising that into being an attitude or worldview that encompasses all things, when it could really just be a statement on music and art not meant to be taken out of context. Still, I've seen it mentioned online by random people for example on imageboards even during serious discussion; I get that it's sometimes meant as a meme, and it does suitably annoy Swedes to qualify as trolling in certain circumstances, but there have been times when I've come across it meant sincerely and out of ignorance. I've even argued with people over it, and a few bothered to look it up and learned they were wrong. The problem, of course, is that in online arguments, most people consider "look it up" or links to Wikipedia or whatever an admission of defeat...

Anyway, I know of at least one famous person having said something like that, although it was in the context of music: Samu Haber on Vain elämää. I don't remember exactly what he said, but it was something about Slavic melancholy or whatever, and he also joked about Americans thinking of him as an Eastern European iskelmä singer or something. Then again, that was in the context of music, and Finland is geographically in eastern Europe as well as in the north, so... the Americans he joked about would've actually been right, at least geographically speaking.

Honestly, personally, I like it when people think of Finland as Eastern Europe because it means they associate us more closely with Hungarians, Lithuanians, Latvians, Poles, Slovaks, Ukrainians, etc. and, of course, Estonians. As long as they don't associate us with Russians alone when they think that, it's all positive in my opinion.

*Wasn't there some TV-series about this not so long ago? "How Finland is Russian" and "How Finland is Swedish" or something like that. I don't remember what people thought of those but at least it didn't make the whole world explode.

Yeah, Suomi on venäläinen and Suomi on ruotsalainen. The third series was Suomi on suomalainen.

[Saim]

As someone who has talked about this with Hungarians when they were learning Finnish, no, knowing Hungarian doesn't really help. It only helps in the sense that you don't need to be taught what cases are.

Some of the basic vocabulary is vaguely similar, but this only helps in the way knowing English helps to learn Serbian (brother/brat, milk/mleko, three/tri, yes/jeste) or Hindi (eight/aath, me/main, mother/mata). You're not going to instantly recognise any of it but it's surely easier than going from Hungarian to, say, Mandarin or Arabic.

Finnish - Hungarian - English
on - van - is
ollut - volt - was/has been
pää - fej - head
käsi - kéz - hand
kolme - harom - three
neljä - négy - four

[dEhiN]

Hungarian - Finnish - English
van - on - is
pää - fej - head
käsi - kéz - hand
kolme - harom - three
neljä - négy - four

Shouldn't that be

Finnish - Hungarian - English
on - van - is

I remember enough Hungarian to remember that harom is three, négy four, and van is the second person formal present tense of 'to be'.

[Saim]

Hungarian - Finnish - English
van - on - is
pää - fej - head
käsi - kéz - hand
kolme - harom - three
neljä - négy - four

Shouldn't that be

Finnish - Hungarian - English
on - van - is

I remember enough Hungarian to remember that harom is three, négy four, and van is the second person formal present tense of 'to be'.

You're absolutely right.

[Aurinĭa]

But the average person with no knowledge of phonology or sound changes is not going to recognise that e.g. pää and fej could be related. Käsi - kéz might help more, I agree.

[vijayjohn]

Oh, no, I'm not! I'm from Southern Ostrobothnia, about 400 km to the north of Helsinki. I lived there for 20 years until I moved to Tampere.

Ah, you've probably told me before, too, or at least said so on the forum. I have a bad memory. Sorry!

But there really are some differences within Finland - not like between two countries, of course, but you can notice it. I had something like a culture shock when I moved here even though it's not that far away from my childhood home.

Yeah, that makes sense.

For example, there's a word in both languages that means 'mother', but even though it's just one of a few perfectly normal words for 'mother' in Tamil, in Malayalam, it sounds archaic, and people avoid using it especially because that's the word for 'mother' that we use in the word for 'motherfucker'.

അമ്മ / அம்மா or something else?

Something else: തായ [ˈt̪aːja] / தாய (in Tamil, I guess this would be [ˈt̪aːjə] or something)

Since you mentioned ambiguity, this is probably a stupid question, but are creoles more ambiguous than non-creoles, or can it even be generalised like that?

I don't think we can say one language is less ambiguous than another, but I would say individual words are often more ambiguous than in at least some non-creoles for sure (especially compared to their source languages). Context is really important for understanding what's being said in a creole!

I hope it isn't, just because it seems really interesting. Wikipedia says there are some people in their sixties in Greece that speak it fluently, but apparently none were left in Turkey because they were forced to move to Greece...

Yeah, I saw (I think I've seen that before but forgot until you mentioned it possibly being extinct). And of course, you know I love languages staying alive.

Not even Navajo...?

Navajo looks pretty easy by my standards.

Yeah, but you're Vijay.

But she said "everyone!"

THAT'S SAPIR-WHORFIST.

I feel like this conversation being had online in English really makes it seem less than half as awkward as it would be in Finnish, especially in person...

Americans are of course the worst when it comes to this; I remember enjoying the film White House Down, but it made me cringe throughout because Iran was called an Arab country or something like that, and IIRC the same error has been made in other big Hollywood movies. Why? Is it some kind of propaganda?

No. We're just dumb.