Linguistics thread

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Vlürch
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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby Vlürch » 2018-02-01, 14:04

Zé do Rock wrote:I suppose that all scandinavians

Zé do Rock wrote:freequently includes in a mor comprehensiv sense finnland

Finns are not Scandinavian. Finnish is not a Scandinavian language, or even Indo-European at all; all the cultural (and whatever genetic) ties to Scandinavia we have come from centuries of mixing with Swedes, often involuntarily.

Finns may be "Nordic", but personally I find that term annoying and borderline offensive because I can't disassociate it from how Nazis used it and how various kinds of "white nationalists" use it today. A lot of Finns do consider themselves Nordic and Finland is officially one of the Nordic countries, so there's nothing I can do about it and my dislike of the term is just me being a racist asshole somehow... but we are not Scandinavian even if tons of idiots (including some self-proclaimed "Finnish nationalists") consider themselves that, and no matter how much Americans, Brits and others may think we're interchangeable with Swedes.

I mean, I know "Nordic" doesn't automatically have the racist connotations, and I'm definitely part of a minority of Finns who don't like being called it, but still. The point is that Finns are not Scandinavian. If you call Finns Scandinavian, you're wrong. If you continue to call Finns Scandinavian after it's been pointed out that we're not, you're still wrong.

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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-01, 14:26

Johanna wrote:Always Nordic, never really Continental Europe. Oh, and never ever Scandinavian, unless you want to exclude everything that isn't Denmark Proper, Mainland Norway, or Sweden. Let's just say that that doesn't really fly here.

So, wait, Kontinenten does not include Denmark? That's as odd as excluding Finland.

It's interesting that "Scandinavia" is so rare in the Nordic languages despite being so common in the English of North America. We even have a humourous distortion of it, "Scandihoovian", which is especially used to describe people of Scandinavian heritage living in the Upper Midwest.

"Nordic", sadly, has many of the racial connotations that Vlürch talks about. "The Nordic countries" is fairly neutral, but I can't really imagine describing someone as being "of Nordic heritage" outside of a White supremacist context.
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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby Johanna » 2018-02-01, 15:08

linguoboy wrote:
Johanna wrote:Always Nordic, never really Continental Europe. Oh, and never ever Scandinavian, unless you want to exclude everything that isn't Denmark Proper, Mainland Norway, or Sweden. Let's just say that that doesn't really fly here.

So, wait, Kontinenten does not include Denmark? That's as odd as excluding Finland.

The Danish heartland lies on the islands between Jutland and Sweden, while Jutland is a lot more rural.

Except for Norway and Sweden, Finland connects only to Russia, and Russia isn't part of kontinenten in that sense.

linguoboy wrote:It's interesting that "Scandinavia" is so rare in the Nordic languages despite being so common in the English of North America. We even have a humourous distortion of it, "Scandihoovian", which is especially used to describe people of Scandinavian heritage living in the Upper Midwest.

We understand why you call us "Scandinavian", sort of, and we do get the "Scandihoovian" joke. It's just... not very relevant.

linguoboy wrote:"Nordic", sadly, has many of the racial connotations that Vlürch talks about. "The Nordic countries" is fairly neutral, but I can't really imagine describing someone as being "of Nordic heritage" outside of a White supremacist context.

Go get your priorities straight! Right now!

Can I punch your Nazis in the face, pretty please? I will especially savor their reactions to native Greenlanders being fully-fledged Nordics for 50+ years while we think of them (the Nazis) as fakes :P
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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-01, 15:22

Johanna wrote:Can I punch your Nazis in the face, pretty please? I will especially savor their reactions to native Greenlanders being fully-fledged Nordics for 50+ years while we think of them (the Nazis) as fakes :P

I'll call my senators and we'll see about sponsoring a temporary visa programme to import Nordics for the express purpose of punching Nazis in the face. I'm sure it will sail through this Congress. Who knows? Maybe some of you will enjoy being here enough to immigrate!
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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-01, 16:02

Johanna wrote:Can I punch your Nazis in the face, pretty please?

Can you drown our current president in the Atlantic Ocean on your way back home, pretty please?

księżycowy

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-01, 16:12

Not just him. Take them all down...

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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby Naava » 2018-02-01, 16:18

linguoboy wrote:
Johanna wrote:Can I punch your Nazis in the face, pretty please? I will especially savor their reactions to native Greenlanders being fully-fledged Nordics for 50+ years while we think of them as fakes :P

I'll call my senators and we'll see about sponsoring a temporary visa programme to import Nordics for the express purpose of punching Nazis in the face. I'm sure it will sail through this Congress. Who knows? Maybe some of you will enjoy being here enough to immigrate!

I support this idea.

vijayjohn wrote:
Johanna wrote:Can I punch your Nazis in the face, pretty please?

Can you drown our current president in the Atlantic Ocean on your way back home, pretty please?

Tbh I don't know who would want to go close enough to touch him.

About Scandinavia - it kinda makes me angry when I see people speak of Scandinavia like it was a synonym for the Nordic countries. Well, I don't like it when people use terms incorrectly anyway, but it also makes me feel like the whole Finnish culture had suddenly disappeared.

księżycowy

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-01, 16:23

The even bigger problem is, if we only take out Trump, we're still left with other douches.

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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-01, 16:23

księżycowy wrote:Not just him. Take them all down...

I dunno, man, one Johanna versus all of them? That just doesn't seem like a fair fight.

But since this is the linguistics thread: What is the antecedent of "them"? :whistle:
Naava wrote:Tbh I don't know who would want to go close enough to touch him.

That's okay. We're fine with her handling him with tongs!

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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-01, 16:32

vijayjohn wrote:But since this is the linguistics thread: What is the antecedent of "them"? :whistle:
Naava wrote:Tbh I don't know who would want to go close enough to touch him.

That's okay. We're fine with her handling him with tongs!

The bill will include a provision for outfitting Nazi-punchers with sanitary handcoverings made in the USA by union labour.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-01, 16:34

vijayjohn wrote:I dunno, man, one Johanna versus all of them? That just doesn't seem like a fair fight.

Oh, so it's not Johanna and her Scandinavian buddies?

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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-01, 16:43

Language nerds have buddies?!? Since when?
linguoboy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:But since this is the linguistics thread: What is the antecedent of "them"? :whistle:
Naava wrote:Tbh I don't know who would want to go close enough to touch him.

That's okay. We're fine with her handling him with tongs!

The bill will include a provision for outfitting Nazi-punchers with sanitary handcoverings made in the USA by union labour.

You know what, ¿por qué no los dos? That way, no one has to directly touch him, and you have sanitary handcoverings just in case of attemptsatsexualassaultdisguisedasaccidents! (Who said English couldn't have long words?).

księżycowy

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-01, 18:22

Everyone has a buddy! Even if they don't realize it!

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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-01, 20:57

A buddy? We're going to need a lot more than two people to disappear the entire GOP.

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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-01, 23:02

Well, we have four of us right here, no? :P

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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-01, 23:35

The Western Gang of Four?

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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-01, 23:37

Sure....?

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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-02-04, 23:03

Dormouse559 wrote:
Zé do Rock wrote:I suppose that all scandinavians (excepting maybe the danes) say: Next week i am going to Europa Europe. But est europeans, too, at least ukrainians. In Kiev an ukrainian guy told me: "Take care, man! If they find out that you'r an european, they will try to get the money out of you one way or the other!" For him i (brazilian) was an european (i liv in Europa Europe), while he wasnt...
1) Europa is a moon of Jupiter. Europe is the western part of the Eurasian continent.
2) A/an is based on pronunciation, not spelling. "European" and "Ukrainian" begin with the consonantal sound /j/, so they take "a".
3) "Est" implies the pronunciation /ɛst/, but "east" is usually pronounced along the lines of /iːst/.


(koy)1) Eu screvo os nomes geograficos igual nas línguas que eu falo, e sao os nomes pelos cuais os "nativos" chamam o seu país ou cidad. Europa hat diverse namen, aber das geläufigste is Europa. Most languages in Europa say it with A. Le nom pour le satellite de Jupiter est Europa auci. Pero cuando alguien dice, "Tomorrow i go to Europa", nadie comprende la frase en el sentido de que la persona quiere viajar manhana al satélite de Jupiter.

2) Ja, ik weet hoe dat werkt, mar het lijkt erop dat mijn stuurautomat is nit goed in dit, soms zien mijn ogen een E of een U na begin van a woord en vergeet mijn brein dat het a tweeclank zou kunnen zijn.

3) Como tem muitos nomes de países e localidees que tem um ponto cardeal em si, como Norde Coreia ou Timor Leste, os pontos cardeais tamém sao internacionalizee: die namen sind in der regla die originalnamen, aba die himmelsrichtungen sind internacionalisiert. Norde Korea, Este Timor. Der is a problema dat is only a problema for ne-anglos, for example when you want to book a flight in Brazil or in Germany, you never know if you should type in the name of the land/city in the language of the land wher you ar, in english or the name by which the land or area is called by the locals, and some land lists ar translated from english, so the name is Deutshland, but you find it at the letter G. Quelques programas comprendent quelque soi que tu écris, mais il y a des autres qui ne comprennent pas si tu écris München, parce quils connaissent que Munich, ou vice-versa.


(en)1) I spell geographic names in the languages i speak, and as a rule they are the names by which the locals call their country or area. Europe has several names, but the most common one is Europa. Most countries in Europe say it with A. The name for the satellite of Jupiter is the same. But when somebody says, "Tomorrow i go to Europe", nobody understands the sentence in the sense that that person has the intention of travelling to the moon of Jupiter in the next morning.

2) Yeah, i know how it works, but it seems that my autopilot is not good at it, sometimes my eyes see an E or a U at the beginning of a word and my brain forgets that it could be a diphthong.

3) Since there are many names of countries and localities that have a cardinal point in them, as North Korea or East Timor, the cardinal points are also internationalized: as a rule, the names ar in the original language, but the cardinal points are the same in all the languages iuse. Norde Korea, Este Timor. There is a problem that is only a problem for non anglos, for example when you want to book a flight in Brazil or in Germany, you never know if you should type in the name of the country/city in the language of the country where you are, in english or in the name by which the country or area is calld in the language of the peeple who live der. Some programmes understand what you mean no matter what you type in, others dont understand when you spell München, because they just know Munich, or vice-versa.

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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-02-04, 23:14

Johanna wrote:
Zé do Rock wrote:I suppose that all scandinavians (excepting maybe the danes) say: Next week i go to Europa.

Nope, not Swedes anyway. We know very well that our country is part of Europe and we definitely identify as European on top of everything else. Which for me goes Westrogothian, Swedish, Nordic, European.

Our word for mainland, non-Nordic, Western and Central Europe is kontinenten, "the continent".


(es)he escuchado noruegueses y finlandeses lo decir (voy a europa), también ingleses, pero no tuve mucho contacto con suecos...

(en)I have heard norwegians and finns saying it (i go to Europe), also brits, but I haven't had much contact with swedes...

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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-02-04, 23:50

Vlürch wrote:Finns are not Scandinavian. Finnish is not a Scandinavian language, or even Indo-European at all; all the cultural (and whatever genetic) ties to Scandinavia we have come from centuries of mixing with Swedes, often involuntarily.


(koy)Naturali finsk er ikke et indo-europeisk språk. Mas os finlandeses no deviam ficar tao bravos sobre a maneira das pessoas em outre zonas do continente chamarem a regiao la em cima, o que também fica dificil se 'scandinavo' no é bom e 'nórdico' pior ainda: in Deutshland han die saxen a slimmen ruf, kainer mag iren dialect, e die finnen nennen alle deutshen 'saxen'... (e the pople in ex-Jugoslavia cale germans the 'shvab', wich is how suabians ar called in Germany, e they ar notorious becaus they werk all the time, or at least dat is the stereotyp). Dans l'America du Sud la peys maxi famee cest le Paraguay, donc sa serait comm appeler tous la sudamericains de 'paraguayens'...

(en)Sure, finnish is no indo-european language. But finns shouldnt be too outraged about how people from other areas call the people or the region, scandinavians or nordic - or, if thats too bad too, those mostly blond people near the North Pole: in Germany the saxons are the most disreputable, nobody likes their dialect, and the finns call all germans 'the saxons'... (and the people in ex-Jugoslavia call germans the 'shvab', wich is how germans say to the suabians, and they are notorius in germany, because they work all the time, or at least thats the stereotype). In South America the most notorious country is Paraguay, so it would be the same as calling all south americans 'paraguayans'...


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