Linguistics thread

This is our main forum. Here, anything related to languages and linguistics can be discussed.

Moderator:Forum Administrators

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts:6828
Joined:2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name:David
Gender:male
Location:Toronto
Country:CACanada (Canada)
Contact:
Re: Linguistics thread

Postby dEhiN » 2021-02-20, 21:14

vijayjohn wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Finding attestations of just one unknown Indo-European language could upend our understanding of the whole family (as has happened a few times already).

I think they should do this but often don't, in part because people tend to ignore new evidence in this context IME.

Well, I'm sure linguistics, like many other scientific fields, is susceptible to human foibles such as not wanting to be wrong. Even though the scientific process is based upon hypothesis and theories as well as the desire to keep changing our understanding of the world around us, in practice the aspects of human nature that foster competition, resentment, etc. seem to create blinders for many scientists, not allowing them to truly be open to new findings that could upend their previously held beliefs.

► Show Spoiler
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-02-23, 15:20

Yes, humans tend to be biased in ways that prevent them from really following through with the scientific method. For example, strictly speaking, the same experiment should be run multiple times, but humans get bored. :P

Spiegel
Posts:2
Joined:2021-03-05, 14:30
Real Name:Jim Staneks

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby Spiegel » 2021-03-09, 8:04

vijayjohn wrote:Yes, humans tend to be biased in ways that prevent them from really following through with the scientific method. For example, strictly speaking, the same experiment should be run multiple times, but humans get bored. :P

That is why really great achievements are made by people who have patience and enthusiasm. Simply put, scientists and madmen ;)

User avatar
schnaz
Posts:457
Joined:2008-01-04, 3:28
Real Name:john viarengo
Gender:male
Location:Wilmington, actually Elsmere, Delaware, U.S.A.
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby schnaz » 2021-03-17, 9:26

"" Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy."
https://youtu.be/4v8KEbQA8kw?si=3AnYFcwkGOzbsBqj

User avatar
schnaz
Posts:457
Joined:2008-01-04, 3:28
Real Name:john viarengo
Gender:male
Location:Wilmington, actually Elsmere, Delaware, U.S.A.
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby schnaz » 2021-04-04, 12:44

When I hear this sentence in Russian я люблю груши it sounds to me like the second word begins wiith "y". Why?
"" Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy."
https://youtu.be/4v8KEbQA8kw?si=3AnYFcwkGOzbsBqj

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-04-04, 18:19

You mean it sounds like юблю rather than люблю to you?

User avatar
schnaz
Posts:457
Joined:2008-01-04, 3:28
Real Name:john viarengo
Gender:male
Location:Wilmington, actually Elsmere, Delaware, U.S.A.
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby schnaz » 2021-04-05, 17:19

Actually it sounds like юбю to me because I don't hear either л.
"" Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy."
https://youtu.be/4v8KEbQA8kw?si=3AnYFcwkGOzbsBqj

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts:25540
Joined:2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name:Da
Location:Chicago
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby linguoboy » 2021-04-05, 17:30

schnaz wrote:Actually it sounds like юбю to me because I don't hear either л.

Could this be influence from Spanish? (I assume you're not all that conscious of whether a variety is using [ʎ] or [ʝ].)
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-04-05, 21:30

schnaz, have you ever heard a "ly" sound that was different from a "y" sound?

User avatar
Vlürch
Posts:943
Joined:2014-05-06, 8:42
Gender:male
Location:Roihuvuori, Helsinki
Country:FIFinland (Suomi)

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby Vlürch » 2021-04-06, 2:31

And here I am, hearing it like любю...🥴 Well, not always, and I've only heard it in songs, so obviously there's stuff going on that can easily obscure phonetic details, but still.

User avatar
md0
Posts:8188
Joined:2010-08-08, 19:56
Country:DEGermany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby md0 » 2021-04-06, 7:39

I don't have consistent results with English speakers, but I did observe that German speakers are typically unable to perceive [ʎ] as a phoneme. Now, I know that [ʎ] is different from Russian [lʲ], but that's something I can't perceive.
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)
Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)Elementary Finnish (fi)Netherlands Dutch (nl)

User avatar
Vlürch
Posts:943
Joined:2014-05-06, 8:42
Gender:male
Location:Roihuvuori, Helsinki
Country:FIFinland (Suomi)

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby Vlürch » 2021-04-07, 4:44

md0 wrote:I don't have consistent results with English speakers, but I did observe that German speakers are typically unable to perceive [ʎ] as a phoneme. Now, I know that [ʎ] is different from Russian [lʲ], but that's something I can't perceive.

Usually Finns hear it as /lj/ the same way we hear /ɲ/ as /nj/, but for some reason in some Russian words at least I'll hear [lʲ] as [j] half of the time (if not more) when it's after consonants, which doesn't happen with [nʲ]. I think it depends on the speaker in at least some cases and not necessarily the particular words, because I swear there have been times I've heard [sʲ] as /ʃ/ even though usually it sounds like /sj/ or even just /s/ sometimes. :hmm: But then again, IIRC I've read that some dialects(?) replace [sʲ] with [ɕ] so it could be a case of that... but that's not really even the same thing anymore. And I don't know why I keep replying, practically just derailing the discussion... ehh.

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts:6828
Joined:2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name:David
Gender:male
Location:Toronto
Country:CACanada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby dEhiN » 2021-04-07, 6:31

Vlürch wrote:And I don't know why I keep replying, practically just derailing the discussion... ehh.

It's called the linguistics thread and your replies are linguistically-related, so...I don't think you're derailing any discussion! I imagine you keep replying because you have something to contribute to the discussion, so contribute away! :D
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

User avatar
schnaz
Posts:457
Joined:2008-01-04, 3:28
Real Name:john viarengo
Gender:male
Location:Wilmington, actually Elsmere, Delaware, U.S.A.
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby schnaz » 2021-04-15, 5:48

Linguoboy said:
Could this be influence from Spanish? (I assume you're not all that conscious of whether a variety is using [ʎ] or [ʝ].)


Thanks for introducing me to the voiced palatal lateral approximant [ʎ] and the voiced dorsal palatal non sibilant fricative [ʝ]. I found them on You Tube and was able to listen to each one.

vijayjohn said:
schnaz, have you ever heard a "ly" sound that was different from a "y" sound?

I think the answer is yes.
Maybe my problem is that I have never been exposed to "ly" to start a word. Of course in English we end words with "ly". So if I take the "ly" in "lately" and try to start out люблю with the "ly" sound it sort of seems ok. I only know a few Russian words so probably with more exposure I could hear it better. This concept that when you hear a sound that your brain doesn't recognize, then your brain defaults to the closest sound that it does recognize interests me. I'd be grateful if someone could expand and expound on it.
"" Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy."
https://youtu.be/4v8KEbQA8kw?si=3AnYFcwkGOzbsBqj

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts:25540
Joined:2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name:Da
Location:Chicago
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby linguoboy » 2021-04-15, 16:14

schnaz wrote:
vijayjohn wrote: schnaz, have you ever heard a "ly" sound that was different from a "y" sound?

I think the answer is yes.
Maybe my problem is that I have never been exposed to "ly" to start a word. Of course in English we end words with "ly". So if I take the "ly" in "lately" and try to start out люблю with the "ly" sound it sort of seems ok.

Those are two different "ly sounds". The Russian sounds is [lʲ]. But English final -ly is [li] or [ɫi]. You can approximate [lʲ] by using [lj] (that is, a "light" l like in "lead" [for most English-speakers] followed by a "y" sound like in "you"). So make sure your "ly" doesn't have a dark l (as in "bell") and then try to say both the "y" and the following "u" in one syllable rather than two.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
schnaz
Posts:457
Joined:2008-01-04, 3:28
Real Name:john viarengo
Gender:male
Location:Wilmington, actually Elsmere, Delaware, U.S.A.
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby schnaz » 2021-04-23, 10:29

Thanks Linguoboy, I'll be working on it.
"" Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy."
https://youtu.be/4v8KEbQA8kw?si=3AnYFcwkGOzbsBqj

nijk

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby nijk » 2022-02-12, 12:09

For anyone interested in linguistics, Language Science Press has a lot of open access books, of which several are grammar of very obscure languages:

https://langsci-press.org/

Linguaphile
Posts:5358
Joined:2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby Linguaphile » 2022-02-15, 6:27

nijk wrote:For anyone interested in linguistics, Language Science Press has a lot of open access books, of which several are grammar of very obscure languages:

https://langsci-press.org/

Thanks for the link! I have used their Pite Saami grammar, but I hadn't realized how much open access material they had available in general.

nijk

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby nijk » 2022-02-15, 10:45

Linguaphile wrote:
nijk wrote:For anyone interested in linguistics, Language Science Press has a lot of open access books, of which several are grammar of very obscure languages:

https://langsci-press.org/

Thanks for the link! I have used their Pite Saami grammar, but I hadn't realized how much open access material they had available in general.


Yes, at first I couldn't believe my eyes. :lol:

Minuit

Re: Linguistics thread

Postby Minuit » 2022-02-15, 16:49

Hi I was wondering if anybody knows why this happens in French and Welsh?

In some words the phoneme T sounds like a slight TS sound.

(fr)
voiture
tu
(cy)
wyt tin
teimlon


Return to “General Language Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests