Linguistics thread

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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby Car » 2020-01-10, 11:09

I'm definitely not the best person to answer this, but anyway.

Synalepha wrote:
The fact that Lithuania was one of the last European nations to be Christianised made a difference in terms of how much other languages could influence it.


Could you elaborate on that?

Christianisation lead to an influx of lots of loan words in many languages at least.

Standard German is considerably more conservative than spoken Upper German dialects, which mark only two cases on nouns (N/A and dative) and express both the past tense and subjunctive mood of verbs periphrastically. Moreover, the Second Consonant Shift and diphthongisation both begin (and go further) in the Upper German area.


But this is today or has it always been like this? (Ok, not literally "always" but ever since Standard German has been a thing)


It's much older than that. Keep in mind that the standardisation project only really started with Luther. The shift started in the 6th century.
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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-18, 14:22

Can some linguist on here make some speculations as to how Ladin acquired an interrogative particle (pa)? I don't know of any other Romance language which has it. Is it once again a German influx? The pa particle is used especially in WH questions:

Where are you? - Olà este* pa?
What does he want? - Che vélel* pa?
Which one is it? - Colun él* pa?

(*In questions, the personal pronoun becomes a clitic that attaches to the verb: tu t'es - este?/esto?, el vel - vélel?, el é - él?)
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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby Car » 2020-01-18, 17:48

Synalepha wrote:Can some linguist on here make some speculations as to how Ladin acquired an interrogative particle (pa)? I don't know of any other Romance language which has it. Is it once again a German influx? The pa particle is used especially in WH questions:


At least some Austrian dialects do have them apparently, so it is possible:
https://www.volkswoerterbuch.at/wort/19684
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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby Dormouse559 » 2020-01-18, 17:53

Synalepha wrote:Can some linguist on here make some speculations as to how Ladin acquired an interrogative particle (pa)? I don't know of any other Romance language which has it.

I found a thesis from last year that says at least some variants of the particle come from Latin post. The potential, at least, to develop a content-question particle does exist elsewhere in the Romance family. In French and Arpitan, you can reinforce a question by throwing in donc "so, therefore". From there, it just has to become obligatory.
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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-20, 8:32

Dormouse559 wrote:
Synalepha wrote:Can some linguist on here make some speculations as to how Ladin acquired an interrogative particle (pa)? I don't know of any other Romance language which has it.

I found a thesis


Wow that's super cool. :shock:

► Show Spoiler

The potential, at least, to develop a content-question particle does exist elsewhere in the Romance family. In French and Arpitan, you can reinforce a question by throwing in donc "so, therefore". From there, it just has to become obligatory.


Yes, Italian too has the potential to develop an interrogative particle, namely ma at the beginning of the question, but Ladin is one step ahead in that the particle is obligatory AFAIK.

► Show Spoiler
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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby Saim » 2020-01-20, 10:31

Catalan (or at least Central Catalan) has a similar phenomenon, namely interrogative que (not to be confused with què, which is pronounced differently) although that’s at the beginning of the sentence.

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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-20, 11:02

Saim wrote:Catalan (or at least Central Catalan) has a similar phenomenon, namely interrogative que (not to be confused with què, which is pronounced differently) although that’s at the beginning of the sentence.


Italian has it too in certain instances.

Ence l talian à cie te vèlch cajo.
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Re: Linguistics thread

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-22, 11:13

Does anybody know of a language where there is a strong semantic distinction between normatively right/wrong and descriptively right/wrong?
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