YOUR language in the next 1000 years

This is our main forum. Here, anything related to languages and linguistics can be discussed.

Moderator: Forum Administrators

User avatar
Kenny
Posts: 4919
Joined: 2008-08-22, 20:51
Real Name: Gábor
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby Kenny » 2013-06-13, 20:03

I have no idea what he means by that :shock:
I've never met anyone who pronounced [ʃ] anything other than that, apart from people with a lisp maybe.

User avatar
Levo
Posts: 3231
Joined: 2006-10-29, 10:22
Gender: male
Location: Tallinn
Country: EE Estonia (Eesti)

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby Levo » 2013-06-14, 7:49

Dormouse559 wrote:
Levo wrote:Oh yeah,
and our s (sh) is becoming soft :S which sounds awful, and about 20 years ago was still funny, but today many people pronounce it a bit softer than how I remembered in my childhood, and such people who have no pronounciational disorder

Maybe our r is softening too a little bit? i'm not sure (towards standard-Swedish like, but not close to that yet).
What do you mean by "softening"? Do you happen to know IPA?


Yesterday I had no time to look up IPA properly. I mean, that that kind of sh which sounded like lisping 20 years ago and most people were smiling at it, is now becoming widespread among a lot of people having no pronounciational disorder. Even on TV. Of course, not the worst stereotypical lisping, but our s [sh] became much softer. Now we don't even tell anymore with friends and family, "hey, he is having a lisp", because they are not a small minority any more.

User avatar
Dormouse559
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 6703
Joined: 2010-05-30, 0:06
Real Name: Matthew
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby Dormouse559 » 2013-06-14, 8:38

Do you mean that /ʃ/ is being pronounced more like [θ]? "Softening" doesn't mean much to me, particularly since languages I'm more familiar with sometimes treat /ʃ/ as a "soft" version of some other sound.

And what did you mean about /r/?
N'hésite pas à corriger mes erreurs.

User avatar
Kenny
Posts: 4919
Joined: 2008-08-22, 20:51
Real Name: Gábor
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby Kenny » 2013-06-14, 11:06

Levo wrote:
Dormouse559 wrote:
Levo wrote:Oh yeah,
and our s (sh) is becoming soft :S which sounds awful, and about 20 years ago was still funny, but today many people pronounce it a bit softer than how I remembered in my childhood, and such people who have no pronounciational disorder

Maybe our r is softening too a little bit? i'm not sure (towards standard-Swedish like, but not close to that yet).
What do you mean by "softening"? Do you happen to know IPA?


Yesterday I had no time to look up IPA properly. I mean, that that kind of sh which sounded like lisping 20 years ago and most people were smiling at it, is now becoming widespread among a lot of people having no pronounciational disorder. Even on TV. Of course, not the worst stereotypical lisping, but our s [sh] became much softer. Now we don't even tell anymore with friends and family, "hey, he is having a lisp", because they are not a small minority any more.

Could you cite someone on TV who speaks like that? I'm still not sure what you mean and can't think of any friend or acquaintance who prounces their /ʃ/'s that way.

User avatar
TaylorS
Posts: 1013
Joined: 2008-10-30, 13:56
Real Name: Taylor Selseth
Gender: male
Location: Moorhead-Fargo
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby TaylorS » 2013-06-24, 2:23

English will diverge into several languages, I see 4 emerging in North America: Northern, Southern, Western, and Canadian.

We here in the Upper Midwest would be part of the western dialect the Northern language that has the cot-caught merger.

Some changes I see happening are:

--------------------------------------

PHONOLOGY:

Elision of intervocalic /t d nt nd/ into a hiatus between vowels, with /nt nd/ leaving nasalized vowels.

Elision of /n/ when followed by a fricative, nasalizing the preceding vowel.

/θ ð/ merging with /d/.

lengthening and then in some cases breaking of vowels when followed by /b d dʒ g/, so "died", /daid/, becomes something like /dajɛd/. "Kid", /kɪd/, becomes/ kejd/.

Following the vowel breaking, syllable-final /p t tS k/ merge with /b d dʒ g/.

/r/ becomes /ɣ/.

/l/ becomes /w/.

/ə/ elides in all unstressed syllables.

GRAMMAR:

Preterite and the Perfect merge.

"Like" grammaticalizes as both a quotative particle and an accusative preposition.

The Subjunctive disappears completely.

Dropping of "to be" in complex passives ("That needs fixed") and the use of positive "anymore" becomes universal.

Auxiliary verbs become increasingly reduced and encliticized to the subject

Romance-style "redundant" pronounces for verbal agreement appear. "The ball it-was rolling".

The redundant pronounce and the auxiliary verbs attach to the main verb and become prefixes.
Native: English
Learning: Spanish, Latin

Linguistic Interests: Historical Linguistics, Typology, Phonology, Phonetics, Morphology.

User avatar
Johanna
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 6592
Joined: 2006-09-17, 18:05
Real Name: Johanna
Gender: female
Location: Lidköping, Westrogothia
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby Johanna » 2013-06-24, 17:53

One thing I can see Swedish developing is to drop the auxiliary verb from the perfect tense completely, and then also the pluperfect one as well, making them only distinguishable by what comes next.

This is already grammatical in Modern Swedish:
Om nån gjort det kan vi kanske fortsätta?
Om nån gjort det kanske vi kunde forsätta?

'If someone has done it, maybe we can proceed?'
'If someone had done it, maybe we could proceed?'

It's the 'has'/'had' part that's left out in the Swedish versions. But you can't leave them out always yet, just in certain circumstances.
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 24030
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby linguoboy » 2013-06-24, 18:05

Johanna wrote:It's the 'has'/'had' part that's left out in the Swedish versions. But you can't leave them out always yet, just in certain circumstances.

Interestingly, German has moved in the opposite direction. Earlier on, it was acceptable in the standard language to leave out perfect auxiliaries in dependent clauses, e.g.:

"Wem der große Wurf gelungen,
eines Freundes Freund zu sein,
wer ein holdes Weib errungen,
mische seinen Jubel ein!"

This usage is familiar to many speakers from poetry and older literature, but I don't know any contemporary spoken varieties which retain it.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6153
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby Levike » 2013-06-24, 19:49

For Romanian I predict that it will loose all of its 5 cases:

So the dative, genitive and vocative will all disappear :cry:

now: Cartea Mariei ( the book of Mary)
future: Carte de Maria / Cartea la Maria ( book of Mary)
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

User avatar
johnklepac
Posts: 2809
Joined: 2012-12-06, 2:18
Real Name: Your Onions
Gender: male
Location: Chicago/Southwest Ohio
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby johnklepac » 2013-06-24, 22:22

Scottish Gaelic is not going to fare too well. I doubt too many people in Scotland will even know about it 1,000 years from now.

TaylorS wrote:English will diverge into several languages, I see 4 emerging in North America: Northern, Southern, Western, and Canadian.

Considering the already high and increasing degree of communication we have with people outside our region of the country, I'd expect the opposite.

IpseDixit

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-06-24, 22:42

johnklepac wrote:
TaylorS wrote:English will diverge into several languages, I see 4 emerging in North America: Northern, Southern, Western, and Canadian.

Considering the already high and increasing degree of communication we have with people outside our region of the country, I'd expect the opposite.


Yeah I agree. I think our global/globalized and interconnected world will keep English together, and probably the same can be said for many other widely spread languages as well. Personally I don't see any diverging process inside the English language, the fact that there are regional words and slangs and different pronunciations does not mean anything in my opinion... all languages have regional variations.

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 2339
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby Yasna » 2013-06-24, 23:07

IpseDixit wrote:Personally I don't see any diverging process inside the English language, the fact that there are regional words and slangs and different pronunciations does not mean anything in my opinion... all languages have regional variations.

There's at least one ongoing diverging process in the English language:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_cities_vowel_shift
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
TaylorS
Posts: 1013
Joined: 2008-10-30, 13:56
Real Name: Taylor Selseth
Gender: male
Location: Moorhead-Fargo
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby TaylorS » 2013-06-28, 0:57

johnklepac wrote:Scottish Gaelic is not going to fare too well. I doubt too many people in Scotland will even know about it 1,000 years from now.

TaylorS wrote:English will diverge into several languages, I see 4 emerging in North America: Northern, Southern, Western, and Canadian.

Considering the already high and increasing degree of communication we have with people outside our region of the country, I'd expect the opposite.


This is a popular myth, linguist Bill Labov's work on American English dialects has shown that modern mass communication has in no way slowed or stopped the divergence of dialects.

I expect English to become sort of like how Arabic is now, numerous mutually unintelligible "dialects" linked together by a formal standard based on present day English, much like how Arabs today use Modern Standard Arabic.
Native: English
Learning: Spanish, Latin

Linguistic Interests: Historical Linguistics, Typology, Phonology, Phonetics, Morphology.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 24030
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby linguoboy » 2013-06-28, 3:24

TaylorS wrote:This is a popular myth, linguist Bill Labov's work on American English dialects has shown that modern mass communication has in no way slowed or stopped the divergence of dialects.

In fact, the distance is increasing. The NCVS is taking the mid vowels in one direction, the Southern Cities Vowel Shift in another, and the Southern California Shift in another altogether.

I think it's common to think that impediments to communication are the only factors driving linguistic divergence. But sometimes the driver is a desire to maintain a distinct identity. Labov did pioneering work on the island of Martha's Vineyard in Massachusetts where he demonstrated that an influx of outsiders increased the distance between their speech and the speech of the islanders as the latter felt an increased desire to emphasise their local origin.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Quetzalcoatl
Posts: 3515
Joined: 2005-09-24, 21:50
Gender: male
Location: Vietnam
Country: VN Vietnam (Việt Nam)

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby Quetzalcoatl » 2013-07-20, 6:11

1000 years are way toooo long to be predictable... But I see some tendencies in German which might become accepted as Standard German in some decades:

- complete loss of the "Konjunktiv 1" ("er sei", "er habe", "er wolle") (probability: 80%)
- partial loss of the "Konjunktiv 2" (exception: auxiliary verbs and modal verbs) (80%)
- grammaticalization of "am + infinitive" to form a productive progressive aspect ("Ich bin am arbeiten.") (60%)
- fewer irregular forms in the past and perfect tense (p. almost 100%)
- [ç] > [ʃ] (50%)
- more diphthongs due to influence of English like [eɪ] and [oʊ] (30-40%)
- cliticization of pronouns following verbs (for example "biste" instead of "bist du") (60%)
- loss of V2 ("Heute ich gehe." instead of "Heute gehe ich.") (30-40%)
- dative-accusative-merger for masculine nouns ("Ich helfe den Mann." instead of "Ich helfe dem Mann.") (70%)

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10661
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-20, 6:59

Sorry, where are you getting these numerical figures if not from out of thin air?

User avatar
Car
Forum Administrator
Posts: 10618
Joined: 2002-06-21, 19:24
Real Name: Silvia
Gender: female
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby Car » 2013-07-20, 12:52

Quetzalcoatl wrote:- complete loss of the "Konjunktiv 1" ("er sei", "er habe", "er wolle") (probability: 80%)


That probability seems too low.

- [ç] > [ʃ] (50%)


I don't think that will become standard any time soon. In some regions, certainly, but standard?

- dative-accusative-merger for masculine nouns ("Ich helfe den Mann." instead of "Ich helfe dem Mann.") (70%)


What makes you think that?
Please correct my mistakes!

User avatar
Gormur
Posts: 7970
Joined: 2005-05-17, 1:11
Real Name: Gormur
Gender: male
Country: CU Cuba (Cuba)
Contact:

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby Gormur » 2020-06-17, 14:22

JackFrost wrote:
Llawygath wrote:Such things as French, for some reason, were spared

In Canada? Yes and no. Any francophone outside Quebec and New Brunswick doesn't really have much access to stuff in French.
It might be in that not much category but the French quarter in Winnipeg has quite a bit, including a university. They do speak French there too. Some use a rolled r :) :hmm:

As for a thousand years from now, I think there will be more dialects as the result of languages being broken down. Although I doubt we'll ever have anything like 49 or 50 total languages

It'll likely be diverse; similar to how it is right now. North Germanic languages will be spoken and healthy. Maybe even more people will be multilingual because getting around will be easier

I've never studied Scots Gaelic but I think it'll stay around at least for cultural purposes. Although I guess it's true, we can't prevent the death of everyday spoken exchanges which is sad to think about. I suppose there are ways around this

It seems like everyone's goal here is to have massive amounts of speakers, but that doesn't really address the issue of language death or even the health status of living languages :hmm:
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 24030
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby linguoboy » 2020-06-17, 14:42

Gormur wrote:I've never studied Scots Gaelic but I think it'll stay around at least for cultural purposes.

If by "cultural purposes", you mean "tattoos, plus the occasional name of a house or a boat", I think we're already there.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Gormur
Posts: 7970
Joined: 2005-05-17, 1:11
Real Name: Gormur
Gender: male
Country: CU Cuba (Cuba)
Contact:

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby Gormur » 2020-06-17, 15:11

I was thinking more along the lines of festivals, street signs and literature in schools but okay :lol:
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 24030
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: YOUR language in the next 1000 years

Postby linguoboy » 2020-06-17, 16:12

Gormur wrote:I was thinking more along the lines of festivals, street signs and literature in schools but okay :lol:

You know of schools where they teach Scottish-Gaelic literature? The only place where you really come across Scottish-Gaelic in a literary context is in songs.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons


Return to “General Language Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest