True false friends

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linguoboy
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Re: True false friends

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-05, 16:16

[flag]sv[/flag] en stund a while
[flag]de[/flag] eine Stunde an hour

[flag]da[/flag] en time an hour
[flag]en[/flag] a time
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Re: True false friends

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-06, 2:45

[flag]sv[/flag] anka "duck"
[flag]de[/flag] [Alem.] Anke "butter"
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Re: True false friends

Postby ling » 2013-02-06, 3:49

[flag]en[/flag] brief - short
[flag]de[/flag] Brief - letter
Native: [flag=]en[/flag] Advanced: [flag=]zh[/flag] Actively studying: [flag=]th[/flag][flag=]id[/flag] Passively dabbling: [flag=]lkt[/flag]

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Re: True false friends

Postby md0 » 2013-02-07, 17:40

[flag]el[/flag] ρόμπα (=dressing gown) /'ro(m)ba/
[flag]fr[/flag] robe (=dress)
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Re: True false friends

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-07, 17:53

[flag]es[/flag] tabla board, plank, panel
[flag]en[/flag] table

(One I've known about for forever, yet it still tripped me up the other day. Doesn't help at all that French and Catalan both agree with English on this one. Which reminds me:)

[flag]ca[/flag] post board, plank
[flag]en[/flag] post (= [flag]ca[/flag] pal)
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Re: True false friends

Postby Lazar Taxon » 2013-02-07, 19:01

ling wrote:[flag]en[/flag] brief - short
[flag]de[/flag] Brief - letter
English "brief" can also mean a short written communication, which is closer to the German meaning (though still not identical).
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag] Good: [flag=]es[/flag] [flag=]fr[/flag] Okay: [flag=]de[/flag] [flag=]la[/flag] Beginning: [flag=]it[/flag] Interested in: [flag=]he[/flag] [flag=]hi[/flag] [flag=]ru[/flag]

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Re: True false friends

Postby Michael » 2013-02-07, 19:11

I've come upon quite a few of these while learning Standard Italian, because of interference from native Pizzonese dialect, but a mere two pairs come to mind at the moment.

[flag]nap[/flag] cossa /ˈkosːa/ - leg (Italian: gamba)
[flag]it[/flag] coscia /ˈkɔʃːa/ - thigh

[flag]nap[/flag] casino /kaˈziːnə/ - boisterous noise, racket, ruckus
[flag]it[/flag] casino /kaˈsino/ - brothel (can also mean above sometimes tho)

Which reminds me…

[flag]it[/flag] casino /kaˈsino/ - brothel, ruckus
[flag]en[/flag] casino /kʰʌˈsiːnoʊ̯/ (Italian: casinò)
American English (en-us) Pizzonese (nap) N Italian (it) Mexican Spanish (es-mx) Brazilian Portuguese (pt-br) Albanian (sq) B1 Greek (el) Persian (fa) A2 Romanian (ro) Old English (en_old) Turkish (tr) Azerbaijani (az) A1
„Çdo njeri është peng i veprave të veta.‟
Every human being is hostage to their own deeds.

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Re: True false friends

Postby OldBoring » 2013-02-08, 5:03

HoItalosPhilellen wrote:I've come upon quite a few of these while learning Standard Italian, because of interference from native Pizzonese dialect, but a mere two pairs come to mind at the moment.

[flag]nap[/flag] cossa /ˈkosːa/ - leg (Italian: gamba)
[flag]it[/flag] coscia /ˈkɔʃːa/ - thigh


I also used to have this confusion between Mandarin and my native Qingtianese dialect.
[flag]zh[/flag] (M) - leg
[flag]wuu[/flag] (Q) - thigh (Mandarin: 大腿)

[flag]zh[/flag] (M) - foot
[flag]wuu[/flag] (Q) - leg or foot

Also, that delicious part of the chicken is called coscia di pollo (chicken thigh) in Italian, but 鸡腿 (chicken leg) in Chinese. How do you call it in English? Chicken leg or chicken thigh?

HoItalosPhilellen wrote:[flag]nap[/flag] casino /kaˈziːnə/ - boisterous noise, racket, ruckus
[flag]it[/flag] casino /kaˈsino/ - brothel (can also mean above sometimes tho)

Actually, in modern Italian casino is more often used with the above meaning (so the same as Pizzonese).
There are many words for brothel: bordello, casa chiusa, etc.
By the way, bordello is also used to mean "ruckus"... it seems that Italians always associate brothels with ruckus.

HoItalosPhilellen wrote:[flag]it[/flag] casino /kaˈsino/ - brothel, ruckus
[flag]en[/flag] casino /kʰʌˈsiːnoʊ̯/ (Italian: casinò)

Yep... my father also confuses these words, and pronounces casinò as casino.
To add the confusion: near Frosinone there is a town: Cassino...

By the way, the pronunciation /kaˈzino/ is also very common.

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Re: True false friends

Postby md0 » 2013-02-08, 12:00

[flag]fr[/flag] cabaret
[flag]el[/flag]/[flag]el-cy[/flag] καμπαρέ/καπαρέ (=brothel)
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Re: True false friends

Postby Michael » 2013-02-08, 15:44

Youngfun wrote:Also, that delicious part of the chicken is called coscia di pollo (chicken thigh) in Italian, but 鸡腿 (chicken leg) in Chinese. How do you call it in English? Chicken leg or chicken thigh?

Yes, we call it "chicken thigh". In Pizzonese as spoken here all'estero, we call it either cossa de caglína /ˈkosːa də kaˈʎːiːna/ or the Americanism cossa de cíchene /ˈkosːa də ˈtʃiːkənə/, but back in Italy they just use the former AFAIK.

To add the confusion: near Frosinone there is a town: Cassino...

Surely you are referring to the town of the monastery atop the mount? My grandmother visited it once in the seventies with my mom and my aunt. Every now and then she tells me the story of how it had to be bombed by friendly forces in WWII in order to defeat the Germans, and how it was later rebuilt by the United States. I never get tired of hearing it. :)

By the way, the pronunciation /kaˈzino/ is also very common.

That's actually what I had initially put down, because that is the more natural pronunciation for me, since I am of Southern origin. :)

I have another true false friend:
[flag]nap[/flag] ruosso, ròssa /ruə̯sːə, rːosːa/ - big, grand (Italian: grosso, -a)*
[flag]it[/flag] rosso, -a /rosːo, -a/ - red (Pizzonese: ruscio, róscia)
*It's not uncommon for Italian initial gr- to turn into r- in Pizzonese, eg grattare ("to itch") vs. rattà.
American English (en-us) Pizzonese (nap) N Italian (it) Mexican Spanish (es-mx) Brazilian Portuguese (pt-br) Albanian (sq) B1 Greek (el) Persian (fa) A2 Romanian (ro) Old English (en_old) Turkish (tr) Azerbaijani (az) A1
„Çdo njeri është peng i veprave të veta.‟
Every human being is hostage to their own deeds.

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Re: True false friends

Postby Eginhard » 2013-02-08, 22:24

[flag]fr[/flag] un trésor - a treasure
[flag]de[/flag] ein Tresor - a safe

I just finished reading a French book about a treasure hunt and only in the very end I realised that they were not actually looking for a safe, but just for a treasure. :oops:
Current focus: [flag=]lt[/flag] [flag=]fr[/flag] [flag=]bg[/flag] [flag=]hr[/flag] [flag=]ga[/flag]

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Re: True false friends

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-10, 6:51

[flag]ca[/flag] pell skin ([flag]es[/flag] piel)
[flag]es[/flag] pelo hair ([flag]ca[/flag] pèl)

This one is frustrating because the usual comparative rules don't apply. Catalan final ll usually corresponds to Spanish ll or j, but not when the Vulgar Latin etymon ends in *-e(m) (as is the case with *pelle(m)).

For the same reason, I often end up saying ello in Spanish when I really mean él. (In Catalan, both are ell.)
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Re: True false friends

Postby OldBoring » 2013-02-10, 13:36

HoItalosPhilellen wrote:Yes, we call it "chicken thigh". In Pizzonese as spoken here all'estero, we call it either cossa de caglína /ˈkosːa də kaˈʎːiːna/ or the Americanism cossa de cíchene /ˈkosːa də ˈtʃiːkənə/, but back in Italy they just use the former AFAIK.

Thanks. :)
i was asking because I see "chicken leg" very often, especially in English translations in China, and also in Hong Kong movie subtitles.

Cossa de cíchene è bellissimo! :D
We (Chinese people in Italy) also use a lot of Italianisms. We say chicken in Chinese, but other food names, such as vongole, cozze, rombo, scampi, carciofi, etc. nobody of us knows how to say them in Chinese.

Surely you are referring to the town of the monastery atop the mount? My grandmother visited it once in the seventies with my mom and my aunt. Every now and then she tells me the story of how it had to be bombed by friendly forces in WWII in order to defeat the Germans, and how it was later rebuilt by the United States. I never get tired of hearing it. :)

Yes. Where the "Abbazia di Montecassino" is located.
Nice story btw. :) I didn't know.

I have another true false friend:
[flag]nap[/flag] ruosso, ròssa /ruə̯sːə, rːosːa/ - big, grand (Italian: grosso, -a)*
[flag]it[/flag] rosso, -a /rosːo, -a/ - red (Pizzonese: ruscio, róscia)

IIRC, in Neapolitan proper "red" is russo*/rossa, both with the final vowel pronounced as schwa.
That's reflected in the common Southern last name Russo, where in the rest of Italy the most common one is Rossi.

*This is another false friend.
[flag]it[/flag] russo - Russian
[flag]nap[/flag] russo [Neaples Neapolitan] - red
I don't know how to say Russian in Neapolitan proper.

And in Romanesco we also say roscio/roscia, meaning redhead (someone with red hair). :)

linguoboy wrote:[flag]ca[/flag] pell skin ([flag]es[/flag] piel)
[flag]es[/flag] pelo hair ([flag]ca[/flag] pèl)

This one is frustrating because the usual comparative rules don't apply. Catalan final ll usually corresponds to Spanish ll or j, but not when the Vulgar Latin etymon ends in *-e(m) (as is the case with *pelle(m)).

Just for curiosity, what is the expected ending in Catalan for Latin *-lle(m)?

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Re: True false friends

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-10, 14:01

Youngfun wrote:Just for curiosity, what is the expected ending in Catalan for Latin *-lle(m)?

-ll. But *-lle(m) is relatively rare compared to other sources of final -ll in Catalan (e.g. *-llu(m), *-c'lu(m)), so I expect to find another syllable in the corresponding Castilian word which isn't there.
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Re: True false friends

Postby OldBoring » 2013-02-10, 14:30

I see. Maybe you would expect *pielle or *pieje in Spanish?
I'd say that "l" is a particular letter in Spanish, because it is one of the few letters "allowed" to end words [without a vowel following].
It's an exception of the "always-ending-in-vowel" rule.
The same is valid for Portuguese, and to a smaller extent, Italian.

HoItalosPhilellen wrote:*It's not uncommon for Italian initial gr- to turn into r- in Pizzonese, eg grattare ("to itch") vs. rattà.

Just a little correction: in Italian grattare means "to scratch". "To itch" is prudere.

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Re: True false friends

Postby Mutusen » 2013-02-10, 18:06

Here's a confusing one. In Russian, zapekanka (запеканка) is a kind of cake. In Polish, zapiekanka is a “halved baguette or bread topped mainly with mushrooms and cheese, also ham or other types of meat, and vegetables.”
„Koľko jazykov vieš, toľkokrát si človekom.“

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Re: True false friends

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-10, 22:00

Youngfun wrote:I see. Maybe you would expect *pielle or *pieje in Spanish?

No, because Spanish doesn't allow ie before ll; the vowel is raised to i, e.g.:

castellum > OSp. castiello > Mod. Sp. castillo.

Lack of raising is characteristic of certain Pyrenean dialects.

And -elle is found, I believe, only in borrowings. Pelle(m) > piel is a regular development in Castilian.
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Re: True false friends

Postby md0 » 2013-02-11, 22:35

Ok, maybe it doesn't count as a false friend, but it confused me when I saw it in the dashboard of the French Wordpress.com:

[flag]fr[/flag] (le) forfait (in this context: package, deal)
[flag]en[/flag] to forfeit (to lose, to give up)
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
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Re: True false friends

Postby melski » 2013-02-11, 22:47

meidei wrote:[flag]fr[/flag] (le) forfait (in this context: package, deal)
[flag]en[/flag] to forfeit (to lose, to give up)


Actually I think they come from the same word, since in French "déclarer forfait" means to give up, to forfeit
................Native: French (fr) French
................Fluent: English (en) English , Italian (it) Italian
.........Intermediate: German (de) German, Brazilian Portuguese (pt-br) Portuguese
.........Conversational: Catalan (ca) Catalan, Spanish (es) Spanish
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Re: True false friends

Postby Kenny » 2013-02-12, 21:19

Le Petit Robert wrote:étym. 1829 ◊ anglais forfeit, de l'ancien français forfait, de forfaire


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