True false friends

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linguoboy
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Re: True false friends

Postby linguoboy » 2019-06-19, 15:49

(es-MX) piocha goatee
(es-CL) piocha badge
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Re: True false friends

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-06-19, 17:39

linguoboy wrote:(es-MX) piocha goatee
(es-CL) piocha badge

I'm not sure they have the same etymology though. It seems unlikely that the Chilean usage would have come from Nahuatl (as Wikitionary suggests) with a meaning so far from the Mexican Spanish (or original Nahuatl) one, especially if it is confined to Chile - so far from Nahuatl territory. (Nahuatl words that are used that far from Mexico are usually words that have spread throughout Latin America rather than words used in small enclaves like that.)
Wiktionary lists only one etymology for two the definitions, but it's incomplete. The Diccionario de la lengua española has five definitions and three etymologies:

(es) piocha from (it) pioggia ("rain") = flor de mano, hecha de plumas delicadas de aves; joya de varias formas que usaban las mujeres para adorno de la cabeza. (artificial flower made with delicate bird feathers; jewelry of various forms that was used by women as a head decoration [on a headdress].)

(es) piocha from (fr) pioche, pic ("pickax, pick") = herramienta con una boca cortante, que sirve para desprender los revoques de las paredes y para escafilar los ladrillos. (pickaxe)

(es-mx) piocha from (nah) piochtli ("lock of hair left on the nape of the neck") = agraciado, excelente, magnífico; barba de mentón (attractive, excellent, magnificent; goattee)

It doesn't even mention the Chilean usage directly, but to me the Chilean meaning seems closest to the first definition (jewelry used as a headdress decoration), which DLE gives as coming from Italian pioggia. The Chilean usage of piocha also has the synonyms broche and brocha, which makes me wonder if it could have the same etymology as those words instead, which would add a fourth etymology for piocha if true:

(es-cl) piocha from :?: (fr) broche via (es) brocha ("botón de un vestido; joya") = broche, medalla, insignia (pin, medal, badge)
Of course, that one is just a guess based on the similarities between brocha and piocha and their use as synonyms, but the other three etymologies all come from the Diccionario de la lengua española.

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Re: True false friends

Postby linguoboy » 2019-06-19, 17:41

Linguaphile wrote:
linguoboy wrote:(es-MX) piocha goatee
(es-CL) piocha badge

I'm not sure they have the same etymology though.

Then it's a good thing having the same etymology isn't part of the definition of being a "false friend"!
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Re: True false friends

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-06-19, 18:20

linguoboy wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:
linguoboy wrote:(es-MX) piocha goatee
(es-CL) piocha badge

I'm not sure they have the same etymology though.

Then it's a good thing having the same etymology isn't part of the definition of being a "false friend"!

Heh, I thought the "true" part in the title meant that the words had the same etymology, and that the "multilingual false friends" thread was meant for those that didn't have the same etymologies. (Otherwise, what is the difference between the two threads?)
At any rate, that's how I have been using the two threads myself when I've posted my own, like these and these - to me what made them interesting was exactly the fact that they had the same etymology and such divergent meanings (and the logic that connects them), and I thought this was the place for that. :oops: But I'm probably mixing up threads or boards; anyway looking through the posts on this one I see that there are others without any etymological connection, too.
But also, I wasn't trying to correct you for having posted it here. I just thought the etymologies were interesting and posted what I found. In any case, one of the things I found was that Wiktionary does indicate both meanings come from Nahuatl and I'm confident that's incorrect, but not certain enough about the correct etymology of the Chilean word to know how to fix it there.
In a way it's good that I misunderstood the thread, because it's why I looked piocha up in DLE when you posted it here - I knew the Nahuatl etymology for the Mexican version and doubted that the Chilean word came from it - but found the result rather interesting. (I hadn't realized there were three separate etymologies for the various meanings, I only suspected that there must be more than one, and tbh I'm still puzzling over how Italian pioggia led to the first one - phonetically I get it, but semantically it doesn't strike me as especially obvious, so I'm curious about how that came to be.) I didn't find the answer to that but since I started looking around I decided to post what I'd found. Another thing I found was an English-Spanish dictionary from 1831 (in which English brooch is translated as broche ó piocha de diamantes). I just like tracing the origins of words, that's all! :D No criticism of your post intended. It led me on a fun search.

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Re: True false friends

Postby linguoboy » 2019-06-19, 19:42

Linguaphile wrote:Heh, I thought the "true" part in the title meant that the words had the same etymology, and that the "multilingual false friends" thread was meant for those that didn't have the same etymologies. (Otherwise, what is the difference between the two threads?)

I had to do a fair bit of explaining years ago when I created this thread. The tl;dr is that the existing "false friends" thread was really just a "chance similarities" thread.

Linguaphile wrote:In a way it's good that I misunderstood the thread, because it's why I looked piocha up in DLE when you posted it here - I knew the Nahuatl etymology for the Mexican version and doubted that the Chilean word came from it - but found the result rather interesting. (I hadn't realized there were three separate etymologies for the various meanings, I only suspected that there must be more than one, and tbh I'm still puzzling over how Italian pioggia led to the first one - phonetically I get it, but semantically it doesn't strike me as especially obvious, so I'm curious about how that came to be.) I didn't find the answer to that but since I started looking around I decided to post what I'd found.

All of that was dead interesting! Thank you for doing the work and then posting your results.
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Re: True false friends

Postby languagepotato » 2019-06-21, 10:48

(ar-MA) tabouna - pussy (the vaginal meaning, not the feline)
(ar-TN) tabouna - bread
native: (ar-MA) (nl)
very comfortable: (en-US)
somewhat comfortable: (de) (es) (af)
forgetting: (fr) (ar-arb)
touristy level: (ro) (sv)(ber)(pl)
someday hopefully: (ja) (sq) (cs) (tr) and many others

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Re: True false friends

Postby OldBoring » 2019-06-21, 17:12

Both are important in life.

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Re: True false friends

Postby Homine.Sardu » 2019-06-24, 7:39

languagepotato wrote:(ar-MA) tabouna - pussy (the vaginal meaning, not the feline)
(ar-TN) tabouna - bread



southern Sardinian language (Campidanese)

(sc) ita bona! (abbreviated 'ta bona) - how good!

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Re: True false friends

Postby linguoboy » 2019-06-24, 12:45

Homine.Sardu wrote:
languagepotato wrote:(ar-MA) tabouna - pussy (the vaginal meaning, not the feline)
(ar-TN) tabouna - bread

southern Sardinian language (Campidanese)

(sc) ita bona! (abbreviated 'ta bona) - how good!

Now we’re drifting back into chance resemblances again.
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Re: True false friends

Postby linguoboy » 2019-06-26, 17:20

I think this is a false friend in translation:
“He testifies to the anxiety of French identity, but he is so radical in his propositions. He’s become totally inaudible.”

This is a writer for the Nation quoting Alain Finkielkraut on Renaud Camus. I'm assuming the original quote was in French and included the word inaudible. But the only common meaning for "inaudible" in English is "unable to be heard". I think it's clear from the context that Finkielkraut is not saying that it's difficult to hear Camus when he speaks but that the extreme nature of his views makes it difficult to listen to him. (I.e., il est inécoutable.)
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Re: True false friends

Postby linguoboy » 2019-06-28, 17:52

(es) despejar clear up; leave (e.g. cielos despejados "clear skies")
(pt) despejar pour; evict
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Re: True false friends

Postby linguoboy » 2019-07-01, 17:57

(de) Kram stuff
(nl) kraam stall; childbirth
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Re: True false friends

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-07-04, 4:18

I'm surprised I haven't brought up some of the most obvious false friends between Malayalam and Hindi yet! I must've been saving it for a rainy day or something.

Urdu (ur) قلم / Hindi (hi) क़लम/कलम [qəˈləm], [kəˈləm] - pen
Malayalam (ml) കലം [kəˈləm] - waterpot

When my parents were studying Hindi at school, they had to read a text that began as follows:

मेज़ पर कलम है। [mez pəɾ kəˈləm hɛ]. 'There's a pen on the table.'
कलम में सियाही है। [kəˈləm mẽ sɪˈjahi hɛ]. 'There's ink in the pen.'

मेज़ [mez] 'table' wasn't a problem to learn, apart from the fact that Malayalees would pronounce it [meːs], because it's a Portuguese loanword that Malayalam has, too: മേശ [ˈmeːɕa]. But सियाही [sɪˈjahi] doesn't sound like anything at all in Malayalam and seemed too hard to learn, plus of course, [kəˈləm] is a false friend. So they and their classmates had a joke where they replaced the text with (I'm giving the pronunciation as they would've pronounced it):

मेज़ पर കലം है। [meːs pər kəˈləm he]. 'There's a waterpot on the table.'
കലം में കഞ്ഞി है। [kəˈləm me kəˈɲi he]. 'There's congee/rice porridge in the pot.'
കഞ്ഞി में പാറ്റ है! [kəˈɲi me ˈpaːta he]! 'There's a cockroach in the rice porridge!' (A reference to the idiom കഞ്ഞിയിൽ പാറ്റയുണ്ട് [kəˈɲijil ˈpaːtejɔɳɖɯ], with the same literal meaning, but referring to someone being desperately poor, i.e. they're so poor they can't even afford to eat rice).

There's also this:

Urdu (ur) ناک / Hindi (hi) नाक [nak] - nose
Malayalam (ml) നാക്ക് [ˈn̪aːkɯ] - tongue

Urdu (ur) منهہ / Hindi (hi) मुँह [mũh] - mouth
Malayalam (ml) മൂക്ക് [ˈmuːkɯ] - nose

They also complained that Hindi was too hard to learn "because [ˈn̪aːkɯ] means [ˈmuːkɯ] and [ˈmuːkɯ] means [ʋaːj]!" (tongue means nose and nose means mouth).

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Re: True false friends

Postby Ciarán12 » 2019-07-07, 10:37

(pt-br) engrossar - to thicken
(en-gb) to engross

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Re: True false friends

Postby Homine.Sardu » 2019-07-08, 9:32

Italian - Sardinian false friends

(it) cocomero (watermelon)
(sc) cucùmere, cugùmere (cucumber)

(it) prendere (to take)
(sc) prendere (to apprehend, to capture, to immobilize)

(it) levare (to remove)
(sc) levare, leare (to take)

(it) agguantare (to grab)
(sc) agguantare (to endure)

(it) segare (to saw)
(sc) segare (to cut, to break)

(it) carena (hull)
(sc) carena (ribcage)

(it) no (no)
(sc) no (not)

(it) non (not)
(sc) non (no)

(it) baratto (barter, trade)
(sc) barattu (cheap)

(it) bagna (3rd person singular of bagnare = to wet)
(sc) bagna (tomato sauce)

(it) capitale (capital)
(sc) capidale, cabidale (pillow; Latin "capitalem" adjective derived from "caput = head")
Last edited by Homine.Sardu on 2019-07-09, 11:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: True false friends

Postby Luís » 2019-07-09, 8:36

Homine.Sardu wrote:Italian - Sardinian false friends

(it) prendere (to take)
(sc) prendere (to apprehend, to capture, to immobilize)

(it) levare (to remove)
(sc) levare, leare (to take)

(it) agguantare (to grab)
(sc) agguantare (to endure)

(it) baratto (barter, trade)
(sc) barattu (cheap)


Interesting. The Portuguese meaning of the the words above seems to be aligned with Sardinian

(pt) prender to arrest, to capture, to tie
(pt) levar to take
(pt) aguentar to endure
(pt) barato cheap
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

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Re: True false friends

Postby Luís » 2019-07-09, 8:40

(en) inquiline an animal that lives commensally in the nest, burrow, or dwelling place of an animal of another species
(pt) inquilino tenant
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

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Re: True false friends

Postby Homine.Sardu » 2019-07-09, 11:55

Luís wrote:
Interesting. The Portuguese meaning of the the words above seems to be aligned with Sardinian

(pt) prender to arrest, to capture, to tie


I forgot also the meaning "to tie" in Sardinian.

example :

Happo presu sos canes - I've tied the dogs
Sos canes sun presos - the dogs are tied

Sardinian proverb : prende s'àinu in ue quéret su padronu (tie the donkey where the master wants).

prende = singular imperative of prendere

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Re: True false friends

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-07-09, 14:09

Luís wrote:
Homine.Sardu wrote:Italian - Sardinian false friends

(it) prendere (to take)
(sc) prendere (to apprehend, to capture, to immobilize)

(it) levare (to remove)
(sc) levare, leare (to take)

(it) agguantare (to grab)
(sc) agguantare (to endure)

(it) baratto (barter, trade)
(sc) barattu (cheap)


Interesting. The Portuguese meaning of the the words above seems to be aligned with Sardinian

(pt) prender to arrest, to capture, to tie
(pt) levar to take
(pt) aguentar to endure
(pt) barato cheap


Spanish is like Sardinian and Portuguese for three of the four here:
(es) llevar (to take, to carry)
(es) aguantar (to endure, to tolerate)
(es) barato (cheap)

But different for prendere, although Spanish includes the Sardinian meaning as well:
(es) prender (to attach to, to ignite, to set fire to, to turn on, to start, to apprehend, to capture)

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Re: True false friends

Postby Homine.Sardu » 2019-07-09, 14:16

Linguaphile wrote:
Spanish is like Sardinian and Portuguese for three of the four here:
(es) llevar (to take, to carry)
(es) aguantar (to endure, to tolerate)
(es) barato (cheap)

But different for prendere, although Spanish includes the Sardinian meaning as well:
(es) prender (to attach to, to ignite, to set fire to, to turn on, to start, to apprehend, to capture)


The same meaning for Prendere there is also in Italian :

(it) prendere fuoco (to ignite, to set fire to)

While Sardinian in the same situation uses the verb "levare/leare"

(sc) levare/leare fogu


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