Multilingual True Friends

This is our main forum. Here, anything related to languages and linguistics can be discussed.

Moderator: Forum Administrators

User avatar
Salajane
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 1085
Joined: 2015-05-10, 12:24
Real Name: Ira
Gender: female
Country: UA Ukraine (Україна)

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Salajane » 2018-02-07, 21:26

(es) mesa table
(id) meja table

Coincidence?
Здайся на Господа у твоїх справах, і задуми твої здійсняться. (Приповідки 16, 3)
TAC 2018

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 22089
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-07, 21:44

Nope. Meja is a borrowing of Portuguese mesa (with /z/).
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 21953
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-08, 6:43

That is possibly the first wanderwort I ever encountered in my life. It confused me so damn much. I still don't really get it. I almost refuse to believe مائدة māʾida in Arabic (meaning the exact same thing) isn't cognate.

Linguaphile
Posts: 1537
Joined: 2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-02-10, 5:27

(en) dirty
(sme) durdi dirt, filth
(udm) дэри dirty

User avatar
Luís
Forum Administrator
Posts: 7574
Joined: 2002-07-12, 22:44
Location: Lisboa
Country: PT Portugal (Portugal)

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Luís » 2018-02-10, 12:29

There are lots of Portuguese loanwords in Indonesian. Back in the 16th century Portuguese used to be a lingua franca in some ports of that region (Malacca was a Portuguese city for over a century).

(id) bendera
(pt-pt) bandeira
(flag)

(id) sekolah
(pt-pt) escola
(school)

(id) tinta
(pt-pt) tinta
(ink)

(id) sepatu
(pt-pt) sapato
(shoe)

(id) saku
(pt-pt) saco
(pocket, bag)

(id) pesta
(pt-pt) festa
(party)

(id) Minggu
(pt-pt) Domingo
(Sunday)

(id) lelang
(pt-pt) leilão
(auction)

(id) kemeja
(pt-pt) camisa
(shirt)

(id) keju
(pt-pt) queijo
(cheese)

(id) garpu
(pt-pt) garfo
(fork)

(id) jendela
(pt-pt) janela
(window)

(id) boneka
(pt-pt) boneca
(doll)

(id) bangku
(pt-pt) banco
(bench)

(id) gereja
(pt-pt) igreja
(church)

(id) mentega
(pt-pt) manteiga
(butter)

(id) noda
(pt-pt) nódoa
(stain)

(id) roda
(pt-pt) roda
(wheel)

(id) terigu
(pt-pt) trigo
(wheat)

(id) lemari
(pt-pt) armário
(closet)
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

User avatar
Salajane
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 1085
Joined: 2015-05-10, 12:24
Real Name: Ira
Gender: female
Country: UA Ukraine (Україна)

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Salajane » 2018-02-10, 12:41

Luís wrote:(id) kemeja
(pt-pt) camisa
(shirt)

(id) keju
(pt-pt) queijo
(cheese)

If I am right the pronounciation of the Portuguese word is /kamiza/ and the pronounciation of the Indonesian word is /kemedʒa/.
Can anybody explain why /z/ was changed to /dʒ/ in this loanword (and also in meja)?
Also, why there is "d" in the Indonesian word jendela if the Portuguese word is janela, without "d"?
Здайся на Господа у твоїх справах, і задуми твої здійсняться. (Приповідки 16, 3)
TAC 2018

User avatar
Homine.Sardu
Posts: 250
Joined: 2017-10-15, 12:05

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Homine.Sardu » 2018-02-10, 12:54

Irusia wrote:
Luís wrote:(id) kemeja
(pt-pt) camisa
(shirt)

(id) keju
(pt-pt) queijo
(cheese)

If I am right the pronounciation of the Portuguese word is /kamiza/ and the pronounciation of the Indonesian word is /kemedʒa/.
Can anybody explain why /z/ was changed to /dʒ/ in this loanword (and also in meja)?
Also, why there is "d" in the Indonesian word jendela if the Portuguese word is janela, without "d"?


Also in Sardinian language there are various pronounciations for Camisa. In some areas is Camisa, pronounced like in Portuguese, in other areas is Camisia, in others Camija, with J pronounced sometimes like in French or sometimes like a Y.

User avatar
Luís
Forum Administrator
Posts: 7574
Joined: 2002-07-12, 22:44
Location: Lisboa
Country: PT Portugal (Portugal)

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Luís » 2018-02-10, 13:01

Irusia wrote:
Luís wrote:(id) kemeja
(pt-pt) camisa
(shirt)

(id) keju
(pt-pt) queijo
(cheese)

If I am right the pronounciation of the Portuguese word is /kamiza/ and the pronounciation of the Indonesian word is /kemedʒa/.
Can anybody explain why /z/ was changed to /dʒ/ in this loanword (and also in meja)?
Also, why there is "d" in the Indonesian word jendela if the Portuguese word is janela, without "d"?


AFAIK, Malay originally doesn't have a /z/ sound, so /dʒ/ was probably the native phoneme that came closer to it.

As for your other question, bear in mind these words were borrowed 500 years ago. Sound changes happen... :P
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 21953
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-10, 18:24

These kinds of phonological changes are pretty common in loanwords. Some varieties of Hindi/Urdu also consistently change /z/ to /d͡ʒ/. (Some are less consistent about this).

User avatar
Salajane
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 1085
Joined: 2015-05-10, 12:24
Real Name: Ira
Gender: female
Country: UA Ukraine (Україна)

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Salajane » 2018-02-11, 13:07

linguoboy wrote:(en) heart
(ms)(id) hati heart [as the seat of emotions, etc; lit. "liver"]

Interesting! Are there other languages that use "liver" in the same figurative meaning?
Здайся на Господа у твоїх справах, і задуми твої здійсняться. (Приповідки 16, 3)
TAC 2018

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 22089
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-11, 15:16

Irusia wrote:
linguoboy wrote:(en) heart
(ms)(id) hati heart [as the seat of emotions, etc; lit. "liver"]

Interesting! Are there other languages that use "liver" in the same figurative meaning?

Persian (جگر) and Hindi-Urdu. I don't know if this influenced the Indonesian usage or if that is an independent development.

Galen theorised that the heart gave birth to emotions, but that passions originated in the liver. He was well known in the Islamic world, so that could have influenced this development as well.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

Linguaphile
Posts: 1537
Joined: 2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-02-11, 16:32

linguoboy wrote:
Irusia wrote:
linguoboy wrote:(en) heart
(ms)(id) hati heart [as the seat of emotions, etc; lit. "liver"]

Interesting! Are there other languages that use "liver" in the same figurative meaning?

Persian (جگر) and Hindi-Urdu. I don't know if this influenced the Indonesian usage or if that is an independent development.

My guess is that it's an independent development, because the word "liver" used that way in various languages scattered throughout the world, in many cases long before they would have had any contact with each other. In Hmong of Laos, Thailand, and China, for example, it's siab (in Hmong Daw; the Hmong Njua equivalent is sab, the Chungqiandian equivalent is shab). It's also used in Dogon (Mali), Anuak (Ethiopia), some languages of Indonesia (Kambera; Indonesian was already mentioned).

"Liver" is used in various emotion-related metaphorical phrases around the world, too, much like the way English has "broken heart" or "you make my heart sing":
Hmong Daw zoo siab ("happy," lit. "good liver")
Hmong Daw chob siab ("offended," lit. "pierced liver")
Hmong Daw tu siab ("remorseful, regretful", lit. "broken liver")
Hmong Njua nyuaj sab ("depressed," lit. "difficult liver")
Hmong Njua txav sab ("to decide," lit. "cut liver")
Chungqiandian Hmong zal shab ("sad," lit. "cool liver")
Tommo-So Dogon kìndɛ̀ bánú ("angry", lit. "red liver")
Tommo-So Dogon kíndɛ́ gɛ̂m ("violent," lit. "black liver")
Tommo-So Dogon kìndɛ̀ kálálú ("satisfied," lit. "cold liver")
Acholi cwiny macol ("evil," lit. "black liver")
Acholi cwiny yom ("happy," lit. "soft liver")
Vietnamese to gan ("courageous", lit. "big liver")
Kambera kudu eti ("disappointed, lit. "small liver")
Kambera kaleka eti ("dishonest," lit. "crooked liver")

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 21953
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-11, 16:55

As I said, Malayalam uses 'liver' as the seat of emotions, too. If any Indian language influenced Indonesian to do this, I'd expect it to be a Dravidian language rather than an Indo-Aryan one.

Linguaphile
Posts: 1537
Joined: 2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-02-11, 17:01

vijayjohn wrote:As I said, Malayalam uses 'liver' as the seat of emotions, too. If any Indian language influenced Indonesian to do this, I'd expect it to be a Dravidian language rather than an Indo-Aryan one.

Thanks, I saw that. I should have clarified that mine wasn't an all-inclusive list. Just giving examples from various parts of the world. I think there are quite a few more.

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 21953
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-11, 17:04

Linguaphile wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:As I said, Malayalam uses 'liver' as the seat of emotions, too. If any Indian language influenced Indonesian to do this, I'd expect it to be a Dravidian language rather than an Indo-Aryan one.

Thanks, I saw that. I should have clarified that mine wasn't an all-inclusive list. Just giving examples from various parts of the world. I think there are quite a few more.

That's okay. I just wanted to make sure Irusia noticed that since she asked. :P

User avatar
Salajane
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 1085
Joined: 2015-05-10, 12:24
Real Name: Ira
Gender: female
Country: UA Ukraine (Україна)

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Salajane » 2018-02-11, 21:21

Thank you all for the answers!
Здайся на Господа у твоїх справах, і задуми твої здійсняться. (Приповідки 16, 3)
TAC 2018

User avatar
Olinguito
Posts: 1317
Joined: 2014-11-15, 12:40
Gender: male
Contact:

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Olinguito » 2018-02-17, 6:25

English (en) okay
Finnish (fi) oikea – correct

In Cassell’s Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins (1996) the author Nigel Rees actually gives this Finnish word as one of no fewer than fifteen possible origins of the English word itself.
Bassaricyon neblina

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 22089
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby linguoboy » 2018-03-08, 21:26

(en) beat
(ru) бить beat [among other meanings]
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Vlürch
Posts: 699
Joined: 2014-05-06, 8:42
Gender: male
Location: Roihuvuori, Helsinki
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Vlürch » 2018-04-05, 6:26

Finnish (fi) sama - same
Estonian (et) sama - same
Malay (ms) sama - same
Indonesian (id) sama - same
Cebuano (ceb) sama - same
Sanskrit (sa) सम (sama) - same
Hindi (hi) सम (sama) - same
Urdu (ur) سم‎ (sama) - same
Esperanto (eo) sama - same
Ido (art-ido) sama - same

...but the non-IE ones are borrowed from IE languages (well, at least in Finnish and Estonian, and according to Wiktionary Malay and Indonesian too, although it doesn't mention the etymology of the Cebuano one so I'm just assuming).

User avatar
atalarikt
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 441
Joined: 2014-10-02, 1:37
Real Name: Taufan Atalarik
Gender: male
Location: Malang Kota
Country: ID Indonesia (Indonesia)

Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby atalarikt » 2018-04-05, 7:10

Vlürch wrote:Finnish (fi) sama - same
Estonian (et) sama - same
Malay (ms) sama - same
Indonesian (id) sama - same
Cebuano (ceb) sama - same
Sanskrit (sa) सम (sama) - same
Hindi (hi) सम (sama) - same
Urdu (ur) سم‎ (sama) - same
Esperanto (eo) sama - same
Ido (art-ido) sama - same

...but the non-IE ones are borrowed from IE languages (well, at least in Finnish and Estonian, and according to Wiktionary Malay and Indonesian too, although it doesn't mention the etymology of the Cebuano one so I'm just assuming).

As far as I remember, the Indonesian/Malay one is, indeed, a Sanskrit loanword.
وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ خَلْقُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَاخْتِلَافُ أَلْسِنَتِكُمْ وَأَلْوَانِكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِلْعَالِمِينَ۝
"And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your languages and your colors. Indeed in that are signs for those of knowledge." (Ar-Rum: 22)

Jika saya salah, mohon diperbaiki. If I make some mistake(s), please correct me.
Forever indebted to Robert A. Blust for his contributions to Austronesian linguistics


Return to “General Language Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests