Multilingual True Friends

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Homine.Sardu
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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Homine.Sardu » 2018-04-05, 7:40

Vlürch wrote:Finnish (fi) sama - same
Estonian (et) sama - same
Malay (ms) sama - same
Indonesian (id) sama - same
Cebuano (ceb) sama - same
Sanskrit (sa) सम (sama) - same
Hindi (hi) सम (sama) - same
Urdu (ur) سم‎ (sama) - same
Esperanto (eo) sama - same
Ido (art-ido) sama - same

...but the non-IE ones are borrowed from IE languages (well, at least in Finnish and Estonian, and according to Wiktionary Malay and Indonesian too, although it doesn't mention the etymology of the Cebuano one so I'm just assuming).


A little experiment of reverse engineering :

Vulgar Latin : ipsa metipsima = the same (feminine), herself
Actual Sardinian : issa matessi = herself
Actual Sardinian : sa matessi = the same

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IpseDixit
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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby IpseDixit » 2018-04-05, 8:37

Homine.Sardu wrote:A little experiment of reverse engineering :

Vulgar Latin : ipsa metipsima = the same (feminine), herself
Actual Sardinian : issa matessi = herself
Actual Sardinian : sa matessi = the same


I really don't get what you're trying to prove with this "experiment" of yours. You seem to have a habit of deriving the etymology of words based solely on random resemblances, whereas, in reality, it's not as simple as that.

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Homine.Sardu
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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Homine.Sardu » 2018-04-05, 8:51

IpseDixit wrote:
Homine.Sardu wrote:A little experiment of reverse engineering :

Vulgar Latin : ipsa metipsima = the same (feminine), herself
Actual Sardinian : issa matessi = herself
Actual Sardinian : sa matessi = the same


I really don't get what you're trying to prove with this "experiment" of yours. You seem to have a habit of deriving the etymology of words based solely on random resemblances, whereas, in reality, it's not as simple as that.


Latin was a IE language or not? The Latin expression could be derived from a common IE expression which originated also the Germanic version?

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IpseDixit
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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby IpseDixit » 2018-04-05, 9:12

Homine.Sardu wrote:Latin was a IE language or not? The Latin expression could be derived from a common IE expression which originated also the Germanic version?


Dude, you just cherry-picked two syllables in a phrase, not even a resembling word. Applying your method, I'm pretty sure we can prove anything.

But anyways, we're so lucky to have etymological dictionaries so we can see whether your theory is true:

same - from PIE *samos "same," from suffixed form of root *sem- (1) "one; as one, together with."
https://www.etymonline.com/word/same

ipse - compounded from Proto-Indo-European *éy and *swé.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ipse

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Homine.Sardu
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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Homine.Sardu » 2018-04-05, 9:31

I have no theory, it's you that are misunderstanding, I was just pointing out how among different and distant languages sometimes things can develop similarities and equivalences in both written and spoken form, and with the same meaning.

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IpseDixit
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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby IpseDixit » 2018-04-05, 10:06

Homine.Sardu wrote:I have no theory

Latin was a IE language or not? The Latin expression could be derived from a common IE expression which originated also the Germanic version?


This is not a theory? Well ok, maybe it would've been more correct to call it "hypothesis" or "speculation" but I'm pretty sure those three words are quite interchengeable in the common, non-scientific language.

Homine.Sardu wrote:I was just pointing out how among different and distant languages sometimes things can develop similarities and equivalences in both written and spoken form, and with the same meaning.


Honestly, I'm under the impression that most of the times you're trying to advance an hypothesis regarding the etymology of a word (I mean, that's what you did above, suggesting a common root for same and ipsa metipsima) rather than just pointing out coincidental similarities. But hey, that's just me.

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Homine.Sardu
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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Homine.Sardu » 2018-04-05, 10:50

This discussion it's useless, let's cut it out.

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IpseDixit
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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby IpseDixit » 2018-04-11, 20:04

(it) valuta - currency
(sl) valuta - currency
(nl) valuta - currency
(lt) valiuta - currency
(fi) valuutta - currency

(Same goes for Danish, Latvian, Bulgarian and a bunch of other languages)

I'm pretty sure the origin of this word is Italian considering that it is an old form of the feminine past participle of valere - to be worth, but does anybody know why it spread so much across Europe?

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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby linguoboy » 2018-04-11, 21:04

IpseDixit wrote:I'm pretty sure the origin of this word is Italian considering that it is an old form of the feminine past participle of valere - to be worth, but does anybody know why it spread so much across Europe?

Because Italians spread banking all across Europe. The word "bank" itself is of Italian origin (well, Germanic originally, but it was the Lombards who extended its meaning to "moneychanger's table").
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h34
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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby h34 » 2018-06-17, 4:42

(mhr) ма (ma)
(zh) 吗 (ma)
Yes/no-question marker, turning an affirmative sentence into an interrogative sentence.

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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby voron » 2018-06-17, 5:24

IpseDixit wrote:(it) valuta -
(Same goes for Danish, Latvian, Bulgarian and a bunch of other languages)

Russian, too (and I would dare to assume that it entered Latvian, Lithuanian, and probably Bulgarian, too, from Russian).

EDIT: I just checked on GT -- it's 'valuta' (with variations in spelling) in Georgian, Azerbaijani, Kazakh and Uzbek too.

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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Surgeon » 2018-06-30, 7:46

(yi) פּאָדלאָגע (podloge) - floor
(cs) podlaha
(pl) podłoga

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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Ser » 2018-07-08, 21:54

Old Chinese 屋 *ʔˤok ~ qˤok 'house' (Baxter and Sagart give both possibilities for the pronunciation in their 2014 reconstruction)
Proto-Indo-European weyḱ-s 'settlement' (whence Greek (ϝ)οἶκος (w)oikos 'house', Sanskrit विश् víś 'house, settlement, community', Latin vīcus 'village; neighborhood', Old Persian viθ 'village; clan', Old Church Slavonic вьсь vĭsĭ 'village'.)

Sometimes I like to think these two are actually related though.
carmina vel caelo possunt deducere lunam (Vergilius, Eclogae VIII.69)

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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-07-10, 4:16

IpseDixit wrote:(it) valuta - currency
(sl) valuta - currency
(nl) valuta - currency
(lt) valiuta - currency
(fi) valuutta - currency
(et) valuuta
(sme) valuhtta
Though in these languages in everyday use it nearly always refers specifically to foreign currency.


Another well-traveled word is avaria, variations of which refer to lost cargo, a mechanical failure, a major accident, a failed marriage, an arithmetic mean.... I was first intrigued by the similarity between Spanish avería and Estonian avarii, but didn't realize that English average also shared the same origin. Originally an Arabic word, spread to Europe mainly via Italian (then to Central Asia via Russian):
(ar) عوارية - damaged or lost in transit
(it) avaria - damage, breakdown, failure
(es) avería - breakdown
(fr) avarie - damage, deterioration
(el) αβαρία - damage to cargo, jettisoning of cargo, financial loss
(ru) авария - crash, failure, damage
(uz) avariya - crash, failure
(et) avarii - crash, accident
(vot) haavõri - crash, accident
(sv) havari - breakdown, accident
(no) havari - breakdown, accident; havarere - to damage; (of marriage) to fail
(en) average - arithmetic mean; apportionment of financial liability resulting from loss of or damage to a ship or its cargo

Merriam-Webster says (of the English word whose meaning is somewhat deviant from the others):
The word average came into English from Middle French avarie, a derivative of an Arabic word meaning “damaged merchandise.” Avarie originally meant damage sustained by a ship or its cargo, but came to mean the expenses of such damage. When the English borrowed the word, they altered it to conform to the pattern of words ending in -age. When a ship or its cargo was damaged at sea, the owners or insurers shared the expense, or average. An average-adjuster determined a division of costs among them. An average then became any equal distribution or division, like the determination of an arithmetic mean. Soon the arithmetic mean itself was called an average. Now the word may be applied to any mean or middle value or level.

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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-07-11, 14:53

Back to words that aren't etymologically related:

Jakalteko - Popti (myn) sun
(en) (wild) sunflower

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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Naava » 2018-07-11, 15:32

Linguaphile wrote:(ar) عوارية - damaged or lost in transit
(it) avaria - damage, breakdown, failure
(es) avería - breakdown
(fr) avarie - damage, deterioration
(el) αβαρία - damage to cargo, jettisoning of cargo, financial loss
(ru) авария - crash, failure, damage
(uz) avariya - crash, failure
(et) avarii - crash, accident
(vot) haavõri - crash, accident
(sv) havari - breakdown, accident
(no) havari - breakdown, accident; havarere - to damage; (of marriage) to fail
(en) average - arithmetic mean; apportionment of financial liability resulting from loss of or damage to a ship or its cargo

(fi) haaveri - small-scale accident
(fi) haveri - maritime accident

Both haaveri and haveri come from Swedish haveri. It's possible that haveri reminded people of hav ('sea' in Swedish) while haaveri looked like haava ('wound' in Finnish). [Source]

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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-07-11, 15:35

Naava wrote:It's possible that haveri reminded people of hav ('sea' in Swedish) while haaveri looked like haava ('wound' in Finnish).

:lol:

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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Ser » 2018-07-12, 16:09

Eggcorns are always great.
carmina vel caelo possunt deducere lunam (Vergilius, Eclogae VIII.69)

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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-13, 3:19

TeneReef wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Malayalam (ml) നീ [n̪iː] 'you (familiar, only used with people lower than or equivalent to you in social status)'
Mandarin (zh) 'you'

A lot of other Dravidian and Sinitic languages have similar forms for at least one of their 2SG pronouns, too.

[flag=]sv[/flag] ni (you all, you guys)

Also:
Mandarin (zh) 看! Kàn! - Look!
Malayalam (ml) കാണ്! [ˈkaːɳɯ] - Look/see!

Mandarin (zh) 你看! Nǐ kàn! - You look!
Malayalam (ml) നീ കാണ്! [n̪iː ˈkaːɳɯ]! - You look/see!

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Re: Multilingual True Friends

Postby Vlürch » 2018-07-13, 3:31

Naava wrote:Both haaveri and haveri come from Swedish

Even haava is a Germanic loanword. Literally all "Finnish" words are actually Germanic, and it's killing me inside... :cry:


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