suggestions about slavonics

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Lenguas
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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby Lenguas » 2011-05-03, 13:56

Estoy de acuerdo con Polonus. Este alfabeto causa una lengua devenir (un poco) más difícil para la gente que está acostumbrado a el alfabeto latín. Por eso, lenguas que lo usa son más molesto a leer. En adición a eso, por nosotros pobres anglo-sajones, aún diacríticos causa una lengua a ser más difícil (en mí opinión). Las lenguas que son más fácil para mí, son las lenguas que parace más similar a inglés. Sí croata y esloveno no hubieran declensiones ello sería las lenguas eslavas más fácil. Porque las tienen, búgaro banat pareces la lengua eslava más fácil. Desafortunadamente hay pocos recursos para esa lengua.
English:agree with Polonus. This causes a language alphabet become (slightly) more difficult for people who are accustomed to the Latin alphabet. Therefore, languages ​​that use it are more annoying to read. In addition to that, for us poor Anglo-Saxons, even diacritics causes a language to be more difficult (in my opinion). The languages ​​that are easier for me, are the languages ​​that seems more similar to English. Yes Croatian and Slovenian declension would not it be easier to Slavic languages​​. Because they do, Bugár banat seem the easiest Slavic language. Unfortunately there are few resources for that language.
Russian written in Latin would look as innatural as transliterated Arabic or Chinese written in Pinyin. It just wouldn't work.

Use un sistema similar al alfabeto croato.
The word "un" means an. The word "al" means to the. Croato means...a certain Slavic language that starts with a C and ends with an n.
Last edited by Lenguas on 2011-05-03, 14:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby Ashkhan » 2011-05-03, 14:04

Lenguas wrote:Estoy de acuerdo con Polonus. Este alfabeto causa una lengua devenir (un poco) más difícil para la gente que está acostumbrado a el alfabeto latín. Por eso, lenguas que lo usa son más molesto a leer. En adición a eso, por nosotros pobres anglo-sajones, aún diacríticos causa una lengua a ser más difícil (en mí opinión). Las lenguas que son más fácil para mí, son las lenguas que parace más similar a inglés.


There is no requirement for all languages to be easy for Anglo-Saxons nor for you, signore "Senza Cirilico". And different alphabet doesn't mean one language is harder than the other.

Lenguas wrote:Sí croata y esloveno no hubieran declensiones ello sería las lenguas eslavas más fácil. Porque las tienen, búgaro banat pareces la lengua eslava más fácil. Desafortunadamente hay pocos recursos para esa lengua.


All major Slavic languages and their dialects had, have and will always have declensions. Seriously whatever this Banat Bulgarian thing you're proposing here is, I've never heard of it. No declensions you say? Then it must've preserved grammatical rules from times when Bulgarians haven't been yet assimilated as a Slavic tribe.

Lenguas wrote:Use un sistema similar al alfabeto croato.


I suggest you hear & read some Russian before making assumptions like this; Croatian phonology is simplier than Russian one so it's easier for them to use Latin.

Oh I almost forgot: write in FUCKING ENGLISH. But not rubbish like this:

Lenguas wrote:The word "un" means an. The word "al" means to the. Croato means...a certain Slavic language that starts with a C and ends with an n.


No shit, Sherlock, I'd never guess that.
Last edited by Ashkhan on 2011-05-03, 14:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby księżycowy » 2011-05-03, 14:11

Is it really that hard to learn/read Cyrillic?
I'm a native English speaker and I consider it easy as pie.
Hell, I consider Polish easy to read.
It takes a little effort, sure, but so what? It's not that hard, but whatever.

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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-05-03, 14:19

No matter how many times you say it, Bulgarian isn't easier because it has less cases. It has more tenses, so it's pretty much the same in the end.
And don't worry Lenguas, I'll call Putin right away to tell him that you think that it's easier to learn languages who use Latin script. I'm sure he'll ban Cyrillic in no time.

edit: ENGLISH MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU SPEAK IT?

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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby Lenguas » 2011-05-03, 14:28

There is no requirement for all languages to be easy for Anglo-Saxons nor for you, signore "Senza Cirilico". And different alphabet doesn't mean one language is harder than the other.

I am talking about languages that are easier for an English speaker. Nothing more and nothing less. Of course for a monolingual Chinese speaker, the Latin and Cyrillic alphabets would be equally difficult, and the vocabulary of a Slavic language would be almost equally difficult and foreign than the vocabulary of, say English or Spanish. Although they would struggle with the cases and conjugations in a Slavic language more than with English.

Is it really that hard to learn/read Cyrillic?

As naturally as I read English? Yes. If you add a complication to a language, it becomes harder, even if by only a little bit. Words written in Cyrillic makes it harder for vocabulary to stick in my head, makes it harder to scan texts, and makes it harder to recognize cognates. Therefore any language that uses it is harder to read for me than if it didn't. (Unless they picked an even nastier orthography.) If I wrote English in Cyrillic, even though I know the language in the Latin alphabet, it slows me down in my reading. If I wrote Spanish in Cyrillic, which normally I can read fairly easily, I would be slowed down quite a bit. It would be harder to recognize cognates, harder to read it as quickly than with the Latin alphabet.

It takes a little effort, sure, but so what? It's not that hard, but whatever.

Which can you read faster:
This:
To jest przykładowy tekst napisany w języku polskim jako źle napisane, przetłumaczone przez naszego przyjaciela Google Translate. Szybki brązowy lis przeskoczył nad leniwym psem. Chorwacki ortografii wygląda o wiele więcej, jak angielski do mnie. Dlatego jest łatwiejsze i szybsze skanowanie tekstów w chorwacki niż w języku polskim. To wymaga więcej wysiłku, aby przeczytać polską niż chorwacki. Cognates (niestety, istnieje bardzo niewiele), są lepiej widoczne i ogólnie pisanie wygląda bardziej podobny do angielskiego. Polska ortografia nie jest trudne, ale znam kogoś, kto filologię polską na 10 lat i nadal jest zirytowany, że polska ortografia jest dla nich trudne do odczytania. Polska jest oczywiście o wiele łatwiej niż cyrylica.

This:
Ovo je primjer tekst pisan loše napisan hrvatski jezik kao preveo naš prijatelj Google Translate. skokovima preskače lijeni pas. Hrvatski pravopis izgleda puno više kao što su engleski za mene. Zbog toga je lakše i brže skeniranje tekstova na hrvatskom nego na poljskom. Potrebno je više truda da pročitate poljskom od hrvatskih. Srodne riječi (iako nažalost ima jako malo), lakše vidjeti, a ukupni pisanje izgleda više sličnih na engleskom jeziku. Poljski pravopis nije da je teško, ali znam nekoga tko studirao poljski za 10 godina, i još uvijek je ljut da poljski pravopis je teško za njih za čitanje. Poljski je, naravno, puno lakše čitati nego ćirilici.

or This:
Ово је узорак текста написан на лоше написан српског као превео наш пријатељ Гоогле Транслате. Брза смеђа лисица прескаче лењог пса. Хрватски правопис изгледа много више као што је енглески на мене. Због тога је лакше и брже да скенира текстове на хрватски него у пољском. Потребно је више напора да чита пољски него хрватски. Сродних појмова (иако нажалост има врло мало), лакше да виде, и уопште писање изгледа слично на енглески. Пољски правопис није толико тешко, али знам некога ко је студирао Пољски 10 година, и још увек је љут да је пољски правопис је тешко за њих да читају. Пољски је, наравно, много лакше за читање него ћирилицом.

No matter how many times you say it, Bulgarian isn't easier because it has less cases. It has more tenses, so it's pretty much the same in the end.

Then don't learn all the details about the tenses. Simple as that. Just learn to recognize approximately the person, whether it's one or more than one, and whether it's past-ish, present-ish, or future-ish.
For example to find out if something is in the plural 1st person look for a "me"; 2nd person look for a "te", and third person, look for a "xa".

But good luck not knowing the cases in Croatian, for instance.

The Lord's Prayer in Banat Bulgarian:[9]
Banat Bulgarian English
Baštá náš, kojtu si na nebeto: Imetu ti da se pusveti. Our father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name.
Kraljéstvotu ti da dodi. Olete ti da badi, Thy kingdom, come thy will be done,
kaćétu na nebeto taj i na zemete. as in heaven so on earth.
Kátadenjšnija leb náš, dáj mu nám dnés. Give us this day our daily bread.
I uprusti mu nám náša dalgj, And forgive us guilty as we are,
kaćétu i nija upráštemi na nášte dlažnici. as we also forgive our debtors.
I nide mu uvižde u nápas, Also do not bring us into temptation,
negu mu izbávej ud zlo. But free us from this evil.
Standard Bulgarian transliterated Standard Bulgarian Cyrillic[10]
Otče naš, Ti, kojto si na nebeto, da se sveti imeto Ti, Отче наш, Ти, който си на небето, да се свети името Ти,
da dojde carstvoto Ti, da băde voljata Ti, да дойде царството Ти, да бъде волята Ти,
kakto na nebeto, taka i na zemjata. както на небето, така и на земята.
Nasăštnija ni hljab daj ni dnes Насъщния ни хляб дай ни днес
i prosti nam grehovete ni, и прости нам греховете ни,
tăj kakto i nie proštavame na bližnite si, тъй както и ние прощаваме на ближните си,
i ne ni văveždaj v izkušenie, и не ни въвеждай в изкушение,
ala izbavi ni ot Lukavija. ала избави ни от Лукавия.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat_Bulgarian_dialect
Last edited by Lenguas on 2011-05-03, 14:37, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby księżycowy » 2011-05-03, 14:33

So basically because it's a little harder it's not worth it? Ok.

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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby księżycowy » 2011-05-03, 14:35

Lenguas wrote:Which can you read faster:
This:
To jest przykładowy tekst napisany w języku polskim jako źle napisane, przetłumaczone przez naszego przyjaciela Google Translate. Szybki brązowy lis przeskoczył nad leniwym psem. Chorwacki ortografii wygląda o wiele więcej, jak angielski do mnie. Dlatego jest łatwiejsze i szybsze skanowanie tekstów w chorwacki niż w języku polskim. To wymaga więcej wysiłku, aby przeczytać polską niż chorwacki. Cognates (niestety, istnieje bardzo niewiele), są lepiej widoczne i ogólnie pisanie wygląda bardziej podobny do angielskiego. Polska ortografia nie jest trudne, ale znam kogoś, kto filologię polską na 10 lat i nadal jest zirytowany, że polska ortografia jest dla nich trudne do odczytania. Polska jest oczywiście o wiele łatwiej niż cyrylica.

This:
Ovo je primjer tekst pisan loše napisan hrvatski jezik kao preveo naš prijatelj Google Translate. skokovima preskače lijeni pas. Hrvatski pravopis izgleda puno više kao što su engleski za mene. Zbog toga je lakše i brže skeniranje tekstova na hrvatskom nego na poljskom. Potrebno je više truda da pročitate poljskom od hrvatskih. Srodne riječi (iako nažalost ima jako malo), lakše vidjeti, a ukupni pisanje izgleda više sličnih na engleskom jeziku. Poljski pravopis nije da je teško, ali znam nekoga tko studirao poljski za 10 godina, i još uvijek je ljut da poljski pravopis je teško za njih za čitanje. Poljski je, naravno, puno lakše čitati nego ćirilici.

or This:
Ово је узорак текста написан на лоше написан српског као превео наш пријатељ Гоогле Транслате. Брза смеђа лисица прескаче лењог пса. Хрватски правопис изгледа много више као што је енглески на мене. Због тога је лакше и брже да скенира текстове на хрватски него у пољском. Потребно је више напора да чита пољски него хрватски. Сродних појмова (иако нажалост има врло мало), лакше да виде, и уопште писање изгледа слично на енглески. Пољски правопис није толико тешко, али знам некога ко је студирао Пољски 10 година, и још увек је љут да је пољски правопис је тешко за њих да читају. Пољски је, наравно, много лакше за читање него ћирилицом.

I don't find any one of them particularly harder then the others.

Though to put it into perspective, I don't know what any of the Croatian nor Serbian (I'm assuming) is saying. I can pick out a few words in the Polish, however. As far as sounds represented though (which is the point for this discussion) I understand it very well for all three.
Last edited by księżycowy on 2011-05-03, 14:45, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-05-03, 14:42

Lenguas wrote:Then don't learn all the details about the tenses. Simple as that. Just learn to recognize approximately the person, whether it's one or more than one, and whether it's past-ish, present-ish, or future-ish.
For example to find out if something is in the plural 1st person look for a "me"; 2nd person look for a "te", and third person, look for a "xa".

But good luck not knowing the cases in Croatian, for instance.

You could do the same with cases. I'll elaborate.
1.nominative, the unmarked case
2.genitive, you should learn it
3.dative, merge it with accusative
4.accusative, learn it, it's often the same as nominative anyway
5.vocative, merge it with nominative
6.instrumental, merge it with accusative, just use prepositions
7.locative, merge it with accusative, just use prepositions

There you go! People would think you're from a small village in Southern Serbia, but you would be understood.

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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby BezierCurve » 2011-05-03, 14:43

Back to penis brandishing... Polish isn't hard. It's just dishearteningly irregular.

The Cyrillic alphabet is as hard to learn as the Latin or Greek one. The Hebrew alphabet is harder because when you learn how to write it you smudge the last letter with your hand (unless you're left-handed of course).
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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby Oleksij » 2011-05-03, 14:49

Seriously, anyone who argues that languages written in another Greek-derived alphabet other than Latin are automatically breathtakingly harder is either really dyslexic or just too lazy/stupid to learn that said alphabet. Cyrillic, Greek and Latin alphabets are very close to each other.
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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby księżycowy » 2011-05-03, 14:51

BezierCurve wrote:The Cyrillic alphabet is as hard to learn as the Latin or Greek one.

In fact it's easier. You don't have to worry about diacriticals or digraphs like in Croatian, or Polish, or whatever. (For the most part.)

Oleksij wrote:Seriously, anyone who argues that languages written in another Greek-derived alphabet other than Latin are automatically breathtakingly harder is either really dyslexic or just too lazy/stupid to learn that said alphabet. Cyrillic, Greek and Latin alphabets are very close to each other.

Amen to that!

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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby Ashkhan » 2011-05-03, 14:56

Oleksij wrote:Seriously, anyone who argues that languages written in another Greek-derived alphabet other than Latin are automatically breathtakingly harder is either really dyslexic or just too lazy/stupid to learn that said alphabet. Cyrillic, Greek and Latin alphabets are very close to each other.


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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby TeneReef » 2011-05-04, 0:06

Cyrillic alphabet is great for Serbian and Macedonian, but in Russian it works the same way Latin script works in French, you write X, you read Y. :mrgreen:
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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby voron » 2011-05-09, 8:54

邪悪歌 wrote:well I'm working on that... if I find (legal) resources, I'll make sure to post them for you :D
here's one that I found recently to start:


We have a topic on Belarusian that you might want to check out:
viewtopic.php?t=19542
Also there is a collection of links here on Unilang's wiki:
wiki/index.php/Belarusian

EDIT: There's also this audio dictionary recorded by your fellow unilangers and friends:
http://swac-collections.org/overview.php?lang=bel

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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby Karavinka » 2011-05-09, 12:12

Would it be suicidal if I choose OCS as my first Slavic? :P

I mean, seriously. Other than its slightly-more-complex Cyrillic and occasional Glagolithic (which one can safely ignore, just like I ignore the Gothic alphabet) the language as a whole looks just as complex as Gothic or Old Norse, and less so than Latin and Greek in terms of its inflectional morphology...

Why learn a new language when there's an old one, btw? :p
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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby księżycowy » 2011-05-09, 12:18

Hey, go for it! I've been contemplating learning some OCS myself. 8-)
I think I'll wait until I get done with some BH first myself though.

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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby loqu » 2011-05-09, 12:47

Oleksij wrote:
TeneReef wrote:Polish, Russian and Ukranian sound good, but are difficult.

Ukrainian is arguably the easiest Slavic language, which sounds about right given that it's more or less just a standardised dialectal continuum between Polish and Russian.

Really? Easier than Bulgarian? Not that I've tried to learn any of them, but I've so often read that Bulgarian/Macedonian is the easiest one that I'm just curious.

BTW, reading Lenguas' quotes by Mefi in his supposed Spanish has made my eyes and brain explode.
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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-05-09, 13:27

I wouldn't say Bulgarian is particularly easy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_verbs
They also have lexical aspect (perfective and imperfective), voice, nine tenses, three moods, four evidentials and six non-finite verbal forms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_grammar
Verbs have 2 aspects, 3 tenses, 3 moods, and 2 voices.

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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby Saim » 2011-05-12, 9:57

To answer your pointless exercise about different scripts, I found the second easier, but only because I have more practice with the second than the other two. I found the third much easier than the first, but then again I actually speak Serbian and so the script is completely irrelevant.

No matter how many times you say it, Bulgarian isn't easier because it has less cases. It has more tenses, so it's pretty much the same in the end.


Then don't learn all the details about the tenses. Simple as that.

Seriously? How can you possibly use such a self-defeating and illogical argument. How about I just change one word in that sentence:

Then don't learn all the details about the declensions. Simple as that.

Seriously man, you really shot yourself in the foot with that one.

Furthermore, I think mistaken conjugation has a higher chance of causing misunderstanding than mistaken declension. Let's look at the following examples:

I do like to eat a pie.
instead of
I would like to eat a pie.

vs.

Do you like I?
instead of
Do you like me?

Which example changes the meaning more?

Seriously, all your posts here have been "wa wa declensions, wa wa foreign scripts". If you don't want to learn new grammatical features and writing systems, then don't! But then don't come on here and whine about how difficult it is.

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Re: suggestions about slavonics

Postby voron » 2011-05-12, 10:23

Saim wrote:Seriously, all your posts here have been "wa wa declensions, wa wa foreign scripts". If you don't want to learn new grammatical features and writing systems, then don't! But then don't come on here and whine about how difficult it is.

:D
I second that. Declensions and other morphological features settle down in your head at the early stage of learning a language, it may be a year or two but they settle down eventually if you pay it enough effort. It takes much longer to actually master a language, usually 5+ years if you are not immersed in the language's culture. Do you think its declensions that take so long?


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