What's The Hardest Language To Learn?

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Re: What's The Hardest Language To Learn?

Postby JackFrost » 2011-08-22, 5:31

Really, très? You can also say it as /tʀɛ/. Like you've said, it's not a big deal. What made me wonder is that he said "often"... Something I'm having trouble believing.

All I could think of is the e levelling. cédait /sɛdɛ/, aimer /eme/.

I don't understand what he means by the o's. All au, eau, ô, and o in final open syllable/in closed syllable with /z/ represents /o/ whereas in the rest, it's /ɔ/. Of course you have a few weird cases like os (/ɔs/ = singular, /o/ = plural), Paul, yacht, maximum, etc.

What made it hard for me to figure out is /ɑ/ since dictionaries tend to replace it with /a/ in words that historically have /ɑ/. Euro-centralist dictionaries I may add because I prefer to speak the Canadian way.

Chekhov wrote:
The dropping of the schwa is a very simple rule to remember.
Which is?

The three-consonant rule: CəC vs CəCC/CCəC

je viensə vjɛ̃/ vs le travail /lə tʀavaj/
samedi /samədi/ vs gouvernement /guvɛʀnəmɑ̃/
tu sais ce que le repas m'a coûté. /ty se sə kə lə ʀəpɑ ma kute/
il ne te le demandera pas. /il tə lə dəmɑ̃dəʀa pɑ/
Last edited by JackFrost on 2011-08-22, 7:38, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: What's The Hardest Language To Learn?

Postby ILuvEire » 2011-08-22, 6:24

Would you call mastering liaison very difficult? I mean, I have trouble remembering the rules once I start speaking, but I feel like it's pretty straightforward. I wouldn't call it simple, but I also wouldn't say it was very difficult. I'd say something like somewhat complex.
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Re: What's The Hardest Language To Learn?

Postby Bubulus » 2011-08-22, 7:25

Why do so many people get shocked about liaison? It looks like such a normal and common phenomenon to me. English, Spanish, Classical Latin, Egyptian Arabic, Syrian Arabic... all have liaison.

Languages that don't have liaison are what I find very weird instead, like Standard German.
JackFrost wrote:The three-consonant rule: CəC vs CəCC/CCəC

je viensə vjɛ̃/ vs le travail /lə tʀaj/
samedi /samədi/ vs gouvernement /guvɛʀnəmɑ̃/
tu sais ce que le repas m'a coûté. /ty se sə kə lə ʀəpɑ ma kute/
il ne te le demandera pas. /il tə lə dəmɑ̃dəʀa pɑ/
Several of those need to be fixed...

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Re: What's The Hardest Language To Learn?

Postby JackFrost » 2011-08-22, 7:39

I fixed the "travail/samedi" and the last sentence errors as you were making your post, but the rest... I don't see any more.

I'm just tired.
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Re: What's The Hardest Language To Learn?

Postby loqu » 2011-08-22, 7:44

What kind of liaison do we have in Spanish? I never noticed.
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Re: What's The Hardest Language To Learn?

Postby JackFrost » 2011-08-22, 7:53

loqu wrote:What kind of liaison do we have in Spanish? I never noticed.

Liaison means "linking". The French one is particular because it brings up a consonant that is generally silent. Spanish does not have any silent orthographic letter to create this illusion thanks to our knowledge of how French works. As for English, all I could think of is "a/an". We only use "an" when there is a vowel/silent h preceding the article.

"Sandhi" would be another term for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandhi.

As for Spanish, the Wiki says:
Por ejemplo en español, la lenición (fricatización) de /b/, /d/ y /g/ intervocálicas —o iniciales, salvo cuando la palabra precedente termina en /n/— son fenómenos de sandhi. En otras lenguas romances como el sardo, también están afectadas las oclusivas sordas iniciales: tempus [ˈtempuzu] 'tiempo', pero su tempus [suˈðempuzu] 'el tiempo'.

We can say the same thing happens in Catalan.
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Re: What’s the hardest language to learn?

Postby MillMaths » 2011-08-22, 9:37

JackFrost wrote:Like "dix" (/di/), you'd wonder why bother writing down the silent x.

It's written x because it would look like an English word if it were written cks – and the French can’t have that, can they?

Actually, I thought the word dix is pronounced /dis/ on its own, /di/ before a consonant (dix minutes – /di minyt/) and /diz/ before a vowel or mute h (dix heures /diz œʀ/). :hmm:

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Re: What's The Hardest Language To Learn?

Postby Marah » 2011-08-22, 11:11

Liaison means "linking". The French one is particular because it brings up a consonant that is generally silent. Spanish does not have any silent orthographic letter to create this illusion thanks to our knowledge of how French works. As for English, all I could think of is "a/an". We only use "an" when there is a vowel/silent h preceding the article.


What about "China and Russia" ?
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

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Re: What’s the hardest language to learn?

Postby JackFrost » 2011-08-22, 11:21

Sophie wrote:It's written x because it would look like an English word if it were written cks – and the French can’t have that, can they?

HAHAHAHA

Well PLAYED. :lol:

Sophie wrote:Actually, I thought the word dix is pronounced /dis/ on its own, /di/ before a consonant (dix minutes – /di minyt/) and /diz/ before a vowel or mute h (dix heures /diz œʀ/). :hmm:

-.- You got me. Yes, I actually forgot about that important detail. :?
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Re: What's The Hardest Language To Learn?

Postby JackFrost » 2011-08-22, 11:23

Sorry for the double post, but I'm still laughing about Sophie's post. It's so classic.

Still DYING...
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Re: What's The Hardest Language To Learn?

Postby Ashkhan » 2011-08-22, 12:02

I wish I was in the land of cotton
Old times there are not forgotten
Look away! Look away! Look away!
Dicksie land!
In Dicksie land where I was born in
Early on one frosty morning
Look away! Look away! Look away!
Dicksie land!

(and now everyone!)

I wish I was in Dicksie! Hooray! Hooray!
In Dicksie land I'll make my stand to live and die in Dicksie!
Away, away
Away down south in Dicksie
Away, away
Away down south in Dicksie!
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Re: What's The Hardest Language To Learn?

Postby Kenny » 2011-08-22, 12:52

This might be of help for those in doubt when it comes to French pronunciation.
http://www.projet-pfc.net/ressources-li ... s/moteuref
Last edited by Kenny on 2011-08-22, 16:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What's The Hardest Language To Learn?

Postby TeneReef » 2011-08-22, 16:03

loqu wrote:What kind of liaison do we have in Spanish? I never noticed.


de España = d'España
un beso = umbeso :P
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Re: What's The Hardest Language To Learn?

Postby linguoboy » 2011-08-22, 16:50

Meera wrote:Yeah, MSA has the most resources availble. I can't say for the other dialects, because when I tried to learn Lebanese I could literally find nothing, but theres tons of things for Egyptian. I was amazed at how much there was for it.

How long ago was that, if I might ask? I got interested in Lebanese a couple years back and found this book (published 2003) as well as a couple of websites.

ILuvEire wrote:Would you call mastering liaison very difficult? I mean, I have trouble remembering the rules once I start speaking, but I feel like it's pretty straightforward. I wouldn't call it simple, but I also wouldn't say it was very difficult. I'd say something like somewhat complex.

Moreover, it's closely tied to register. YMMV, but in casual speech, I hardly use it at all.

BTW, I distinguish liaison (which involves the appearance of a phoneme which would not otherwise be present) from other forms of sandhi phenomenon. One could call the alternation between an and a in English a liaison, for instance.
Last edited by linguoboy on 2011-08-22, 17:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's The Hardest Language To Learn?

Postby Chekhov » 2011-08-22, 17:23

Serafín wrote:Why do so many people get shocked about liaison? It looks like such a normal and common phenomenon to me. English, Spanish, Classical Latin, Egyptian Arabic, Syrian Arabic... all have liaison.
You forgot Classical Arabic.
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Re: What’s the hardest language to learn?

Postby Bubulus » 2011-08-22, 18:34

loqu wrote:What kind of liaison do we have in Spanish? I never noticed.
When I see liaison explained, it generally includes the phenomenon of making the first vowel of a word if it's vowel-initial part of a syllable along with the last syllable of the preceding word; it's not only about making the "silent letters" pronounced. So el álbum, la entraña become [e.ˈlal.bum], [laen.ˈtɾa.ɲa], and not "[el.ˈʔal.bum], [la.ʔen.ˈtɾa.ɲa]".

Though if you define liaison as pronouncing "silent letters" only, then yeah, I don't think we really have that.
JackFrost wrote:"Sandhi" would be another term for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandhi.
Liaison is just a type of sandhi I believe.
Sophie wrote:
JackFrost wrote:Like "dix" (/di/), you'd wonder why bother writing down the silent x.
There's an ‹x› here because the French used to like spellling certain word-final /s/ as ‹x›, especially after [u]: dex [deus] 'two'. It's still spelled like that because the French are damn conservative about spelling.
Have you actually used that book though?
TeneReef wrote:de España = d'España
un beso = umbeso :P
The first is just normal vowel conflation. Happens a lot when the same vowels occur together with certain stress combinations. The second one is a lack of a distinction among nasals before plosives. Neither is liaison.

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Re: What’s the hardest language to learn?

Postby JackFrost » 2011-08-22, 19:42

Serafín wrote:
JackFrost wrote:"Sandhi" would be another term for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandhi.
Liaison is just a type of sandhi I believe.

I meant to say it's a better term to describe this linguistic feature that includes the liaison.

So el álbum, la entraña become [e.ˈlal.bum], [laen.ˈtɾa.ɲa], and not "[el.ˈʔal.bum], [la.ʔen.ˈtɾa.ɲa]".

In (French) linguistics, this would be called an enchaînement, which is another form of sandhi.
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Re: What’s the hardest language to learn?

Postby loqu » 2011-08-22, 20:33

Serafín wrote:When I see liaison explained, it generally includes the phenomenon of making the first vowel of a word if it's vowel-initial part of a syllable along with the last syllable of the preceding word; it's not only about making the "silent letters" pronounced. So el álbum, la entraña become [e.ˈlal.bum], [laen.ˈtɾa.ɲa], and not "[el.ˈʔal.bum], [la.ʔen.ˈtɾa.ɲa]".

Isn't that the only possibility, since we don't have [ʔ] in Spanish? I've never thought of it as liaison nor as anything because of that.
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Re: What's The Hardest Language To Learn?

Postby Meera » 2011-08-22, 20:45

linguoboy wrote:
Meera wrote:Yeah, MSA has the most resources availble. I can't say for the other dialects, because when I tried to learn Lebanese I could literally find nothing, but theres tons of things for Egyptian. I was amazed at how much there was for it.

How long ago was that, if I might ask? I got interested in Lebanese a couple years back and found this book (published 2003) as well as a couple of websites.



OMG These are great! thanks.
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Re: What's The Hardest Language To Learn?

Postby ILuvEire » 2011-08-22, 21:23

Meera wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Meera wrote:Yeah, MSA has the most resources availble. I can't say for the other dialects, because when I tried to learn Lebanese I could literally find nothing, but theres tons of things for Egyptian. I was amazed at how much there was for it.

How long ago was that, if I might ask? I got interested in Lebanese a couple years back and found this book (published 2003) as well as a couple of websites.



OMG These are great! thanks.
Also Colloquial Levantine Arabic. It's a good beginner's book, if you ignore that it doesn't use the Arabic script, and it's romanization is stupid.
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