Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

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Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby Levo » 2008-11-28, 0:36

Okay, since loqu already opened the same topic about Indo-European languages I feel so I must give it back. Now it's your turn to complain about our language family, Finno-Ugrian.
What were the main parts you think to be so illogical or which you hated while learning or couldn't memorize or couldn't get why it's needed in the language...
It will be interesting for us to hear :)

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Re: Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby ILuvEire » 2008-11-28, 2:29

I have little expirience with anything other than Finnish, but my only problem is cases that I feel are useless. There aren't many irregularities, and therefor I am happy. :)
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Re: Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby Formiko » 2008-11-28, 4:29

While I think both Finnish and Hungarian are refreshingly logical grammatically, I find it nearly IMPOSSIBLE to memorize vocabulary! Whenever I work with Hungarian, it gives me NOTHING to work with! (I mean Chinese is SUPPOSED to be exotic, but Hungarian is so odd! It's not supposed to be..it's European! (Why did I type THREE word with capitals????) :)
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Re: Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby ''' » 2008-11-28, 5:20

we're not european. And besides, how come when finnish goes all exotic it's sexy but when we do it, we're just mean.
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Re: Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby ILuvEire » 2008-11-28, 6:29

''' wrote:we're not european. And besides, how come when finnish goes all exotic it's sexy but when we do it, we're just mean.


I gotta disagree that. Finnish sounds manly to me, but Hungarian is very sexy.
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Re: Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby Cassielle » 2008-11-28, 9:48

:lol: Well, I don't think Finnish sounds manly (and come on. EVERYTHING except puhu, puhun and helppo are really fun to say. YMÄRRRRRRÄN! say it!!!), but I *certainly* agree that Hungarian sounds sexy. And everything sounds *Important*. I have used very un-PG rated ways to describe the sound of it in the past.


Speaking as a beginner, of course. Because I am.

I think the handling of the future is really hard to get used to. I'd elaborate more on that, but I don't seem to really have the hang of doing it at all smoothly yet :lol: WHY DON'T YOU JUST DO IT LIKE FRENCH.

Accusative is upsetting. You knew someone was going to bring that one up.

In general, and I know this is very subjective, I think the finno-ugric languages make really natural sense, save for the future thing. That is not to say I picked up a book on Finnish and OH WOW it just magically is coming to me or anything (that is also not to say I am picking it up particularily quickly, I don't feel I am. Also, Hungarian vocabulary refused to sink in at all), but everything seems so logically done. I come across things sometimes, and wonder why we never started handling them the same way.

No verb for ''have'' was a bit odd at first, but not really anything that horrified me, and it started making sense faster than I expected it to. No equivalent for ''please'' bothers me a bit, though. I don't trust things to sound polite enough without it, and ''olkaa hyvä'' is not satisfying me :lol: I mean, ''be good''? how on earth did that come to be that way? It sounds bossy to me. ''Be good and write your name.''

I mean, there are ways to express things that will probably take forever to stick in my head, and I'll probably use them wrong forever, but I haven't come across much that I find illogical, or didn't get why it's used in the language. Except that maybe Hungarian could chill a bit on all the different vowels :notme: . Seriously, you guys. That alphabet is cluttered.
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Re: Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby Formiko » 2008-11-28, 9:49

ILuvEire wrote:
''' wrote:we're not european. And besides, how come when finnish goes all exotic it's sexy but when we do it, we're just mean.


I gotta disagree that. Finnish sounds manly to me, but Hungarian is very sexy.


I agree..just listen to Zánzibar :)
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Re: Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby Cassielle » 2008-11-28, 9:58

I come across things sometimes, and wonder why we never started handling them the same way.


Actually, I can think of a very elementary example off the top of my head, and that's locative cases instead of using prepositions. I far prefer this. And eliminating English's overuse of the verb ''to have''.

I am having food, I am having a drink, I had to have soup, etc. Seriously, what's up with us and our ''to have'' (and our ''to do'', for that matter) ''Have to have'' doesn't even make sense for what it means, if you think about it.

Although, to be fair, I am sure more than one language family does away with that.

Despite the fact that everything is different and I'm slow like molasses to catch onto it, I am having (lol) little to actually complain about.
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Re: Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby ''' » 2008-11-28, 15:33

Cassielle wrote: No equivalent for ''please'' bothers me a bit, though. I don't trust things to sound polite enough without it, and ''olkaa hyvä'' is not satisfying me :lol: I mean, ''be good''? how on earth did that come to be that way? It sounds bossy to me. ''Be good and write your name.''


We have it. Either "kérem ..." (I ask it/that ...) or "légyszíves" (please, lit. be heart-y i.e. kind), and putting requests into a subjunctive question form works too.

"menyj el a boltba" - go to the shops
"elmennél a boltba?" - would you go to the shops?
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Re: Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby Steisi » 2008-11-28, 16:44

I like Finnish. It's regular, logical (for the most part) and even the irregularities have a sensible reason, you just have to delve into the history of the language a bit. Like why there's consonant gradation in some words but not others.

I think the hardest thing in Finnish is case agreement. I don't mean congruence but 'rektio', like in Finnish you answer TO something and not just something. You like 'from/about' something, etc. Even the feared partitive case isn't that bad when you get used to it. I'd say I get the partitive right about 90% of the time.
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Re: Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby CoBB » 2008-11-28, 17:02

Formiko wrote:While I think both Finnish and Hungarian are refreshingly logical grammatically, I find it nearly IMPOSSIBLE to memorize vocabulary! Whenever I work with Hungarian, it gives me NOTHING to work with! (I mean Chinese is SUPPOSED to be exotic, but Hungarian is so odd! It's not supposed to be..it's European! (Why did I type THREE word with capitals????) :)

Well, it has a lot of German and Slavic legacy, it’s just too much mixed up with other stuff to be of any help. :twisted:

Azért elég komoly német és szláv örökséggel rendelkezik, csak ez túlságosan össze van keverve mással, hogy bármi haszna legyen. :twisted:

Cassielle wrote:I think the handling of the future is really hard to get used to. I'd elaborate more on that, but I don't seem to really have the hang of doing it at all smoothly yet :lol: WHY DON'T YOU JUST DO IT LIKE FRENCH.

Hey, Hungarian does have its auxiliary-based future tense! :yep: We just never use it. :grin:

Hé, a magyarnak van segédigés jövő ideje! :yep: Csak sosem használjuk. :grin:

Cassielle wrote:No equivalent for ''please'' bothers me a bit, though.

I don’t see how ‘to please’ is fundamentally different from ‘to be good/kind’ in this role. :hmm:

Nem világos, hogy az „örömet okoz” miért annyira más ebben a szerepben, mint a „légy jó/szíves”. :hmm:

Cassielle wrote:Except that maybe Hungarian could chill a bit on all the different vowels :notme: . Seriously, you guys. That alphabet is cluttered.

At least it explicitly lists every vowel you’ll encounter, unlike many other languages. ;)

De legalább más nyelvekkel ellentétben benne van minden magánhangzó, ami kellhet. ;)

Formiko wrote:I agree..just listen to Zanzibár :)


''' wrote:"menj el a boltba!" - go to the shops


Steisi wrote:I think the hardest thing in Finnish is case agreement. I don't mean congruence but 'rektio', like in Finnish you answer TO something and not just something.

Yep, learning what verbs govern what cases is one of the hardest things in any language. I don’t think that Finnish is any harder or easier in this respect than other languages I put some effort into.

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Re: Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby TaylorS » 2008-11-28, 23:23

Don't Finnish and Hungarian both have a LOT of noun cases that don't fully line up with the 8 traditional IE cases (Nominative, Accusative, Genitive, Dative, Ablative, Vocative, Instrumental, and Locative)?

I do like the sound of Finnish, though, and I like that Uralic and Altaic languages don't have grammatical gender (which developed in their sister family Indo-European for some unknown reason from an animancy distinction).
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Re: Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby Cassielle » 2008-11-29, 0:23

CoBB wrote:
Cassielle wrote:No equivalent for ''please'' bothers me a bit, though.

I don’t see how ‘to please’ is fundamentally different from ‘to be good/kind’ in this role. :hmm:

Nem világos, hogy az „örömet okoz” miért annyira más ebben a szerepben, mint a „légy jó/szíves”. :hmm:


I never really thought of ''please'' coming from ''to please'', I just thought of it as a polite word throw on there, and was ...
Y'know what, that made a lightbulb go on in my head. I should complain about this stuff more often, maybe that would be a more common occurrance.

Cassielle wrote:Except that maybe Hungarian could chill a bit on all the different vowels :notme: . Seriously, you guys. That alphabet is cluttered.

At least it explicitly lists every vowel you’ll encounter, unlike many other languages. ;)

De legalább más nyelvekkel ellentétben benne van minden magánhangzó, ami kellhet. ;)


Your massive alphabet intimidates me. Nothing you can say will make it better for me, lol.
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Re: Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby ''' » 2008-11-29, 5:12

TaylorS wrote:Don't Finnish and Hungarian both have a LOT of noun cases that don't fully line up with the 8 traditional IE cases (Nominative, Accusative, Genitive, Dative, Ablative, Vocative, Instrumental, and Locative)?



Correct. Often what you will express by means of a preposition, we will have a case for. Particularly things pertaining to motion.

[I didn't add the word for 'the' here, but it shoudl be "a" befoer each one]

házba - into the house
házban - in the house
házból - from [within] the house

házra - onto the house
házon - on the house
házról - off [from] the house

házhoz - to the house
házíg - until/up to the house
háznál - at the house
háztól - [away] from the house

And some stranger ones like:
Házzá - so called translative case, where the house is the end product of a transformation
Házként - "as the house" which could be used if you acted in your capacity as a house, or disguised yourself as one. Clearly this is commonly used.
Házért - for the house, specifically things done on its behalf, or done to get the house.
Házul - I always thought of this as a adverb formed from a noun, not as an "Essive-modal case" but oh well. Something like "house-ly" or "in the way/manner of a house"

And we do have some basic cases:
Ház - nom
Házat - acc
Háznak - dat
Házzal - is similar to instrumental, but is better translated as the english "with" as it can refer to both instruments and companions.

but no dedicated vocative as we just use the infinitive, no dedicated ablative since most of your prepositions are a new case for us, nor do we need a locative...well I think that's obvious.

Our genitive is slightly strange though:
házam - my house
házaim - my houses
házad - your house
házaid - hour houses
háza - his/her/its house
házai - his/her/its houses
házunk - our house
házaink - our houses
házatok - your house
házaitok - your houses
házuk - their house
házaik - their houses

Since the possesion is not preceded by a possesive particle/pronoun, it can now be preceded by an article, making the distinction between "my one and only house" and "one of my houses" easier:
"a házam" the house of mine
"egy házam" a house of mine
however egyház (lit. one-house) refers to the church (the big one, not the specific building), so egyházam would be my church
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Re: Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby Varislintu » 2008-11-29, 9:32

Cassielle wrote:I never really thought of ''please'' coming from ''to please'', I just thought of it as a polite word throw on there, and was ...
Y'know what, that made a lightbulb go on in my head. I should complain about this stuff more often, maybe that would be a more common occurrance.


Heh, I never thought of 'ole/olkaa hyvä' as a command to be good before I once translated it literally in the Finnish forum :lol:. The meaning is just not literal when using it :).

Agree about the Hungarian alphabet :twisted:. On the other hand, all those funny sounds they have is what makes Hungarian sound so cute ;).
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Re: Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby Kenny » 2008-11-29, 10:13

Funny sounds? Which ones do you mean? :P

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Re: Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby ''' » 2008-11-29, 10:27

I'm particulary fond of our ty gy and ny
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Re: Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby Merlin » 2008-11-29, 13:00

Need I add another difficulty point to the Hungarian lexicon? :twisted:

"zs" and "sz". I'm always getting lost with those. But I think the regularity of the spelling more than makes up for the little oddities.

Anyway, I love how Finnish and Hungarian sound like. Hungarian is like a melody, and Finnish like a jig. It's probably because of long and short phonemes.

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Re: Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby Cassielle » 2008-11-29, 13:23

Varislintu wrote:Heh, I never thought of 'ole/olkaa hyvä' as a command to be good before I once translated it literally in the Finnish forum :lol:. The meaning is just not literal when using it :).

Agree about the Hungarian alphabet :twisted:. On the other hand, all those funny sounds they have is what makes Hungarian sound so cute ;).



Funny note: in World of Warcraft, when the dwarves say ''Be good!'' as a parting greeting, I *always, always* think of it :lol: The words run through my head every single time.

And agreed on that's what makes Hungarian sound cute. Doesn't mean I have to like it. *mutters*
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Re: Same topic about "Finno-Ugrian languages"

Postby BezierCurve » 2008-11-29, 13:36

While I think both Finnish and Hungarian are refreshingly logical grammatically, I find it nearly IMPOSSIBLE to memorize vocabulary! While I think both Finnish and Hungarian are refreshingly logical grammatically, I find it nearly IMPOSSIBLE to memorize vocabulary!


I don't know much about Finnish vocabulary (except that it's full of double letters :) ) but I agree that Hungarian grammar is as much logical as its vocabulary is hard to memorize :ohwell: Somehow I find Hebrew words a lot easier to remember... It might be the spelling - there are a few diacritics in Hungarian after all.

I'm particulary fond of our ty gy and ny


I find gy particularly fascinating too :yep:
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