True false friends 2

This is our main forum. Here, anything related to languages and linguistics can be discussed.

Moderator:Forum Administrators

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:
Re: True false friends 2

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-11-15, 15:44

This may be the very first false friend I ever saw pointed out in a French textbook:

English (en) surprise party
French (fr) la surprise-partie

While surprise and party in English are both loanwords from different varieties of French, surprise-partie was borrowed from English into French rather than the other way around. During the 20th century, at least in France, its meaning was extended to just any party. Later, it came to mean specifically a surprise party in French as well.

User avatar
OldBoring
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:6152
Joined:2012-12-08, 7:19
Real Name:Francesco
Gender:male
Location:Milan
Country:ITItaly (Italia)
Contact:

Re: True false friends 2

Postby OldBoring » 2021-11-15, 16:28

Then fuck the French for using the same word for festa and partito.
Then how the fuck do you say festa di partito? A party party?

User avatar
Dormouse559
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:6939
Joined:2010-05-30, 0:06
Real Name:Matthew
Gender:male
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: True false friends 2

Postby Dormouse559 » 2021-11-15, 17:31

OldBoring wrote:Then fuck the French for using the same word for festa and partito.
Then how the fuck do you say festa di partito? A party party?

:?:
(fr) fête = (it) festa
(fr) parti = (it) partito
N'hésite pas à corriger mes erreurs.

User avatar
OldBoring
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:6152
Joined:2012-12-08, 7:19
Real Name:Francesco
Gender:male
Location:Milan
Country:ITItaly (Italia)
Contact:

Re: True false friends 2

Postby OldBoring » 2021-11-29, 11:00

Dormouse559 wrote:
OldBoring wrote:Then fuck the French for using the same word for festa and partito.
Then how the fuck do you say festa di partito? A party party?

:?:
(fr) fête = (it) festa
(fr) parti = (it) partito

Sorry I misunderstood your post. I thought the word "party" to mean fête also comes from French, and I thought that partie meant party in French.

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: True false friends 2

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-11-29, 14:45

OldBoring wrote:
Dormouse559 wrote:
OldBoring wrote:Then fuck the French for using the same word for festa and partito.
Then how the fuck do you say festa di partito? A party party?

:?:
(fr) fête = (it) festa
(fr) parti = (it) partito

Sorry I misunderstood your post. I thought the word "party" to mean fête also comes from French, and I thought that partie meant party in French.

My post, not Dormouse's! :P

EDIT: And it does come from French...just not Parisian French!

English (en) to leave
Thai (th) เลีย liia - to lick
Ambonese Malay (abs) lia - to see

I remember thinking lia in Ambonese Malay meant 'to leave' for some reason, then thought it must be because of confusion with Thai. Then I realized the Thai word doesn't mean 'leave', either, so I think maybe the confusion in my brain was just because of English. :P

Linguaphile
Posts:5358
Joined:2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: True false friends 2

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-12-01, 23:22

(en) accused charged with an offense
(es) acusado charged with an offense, but also: marked, pronounced, striking, very noticeable

(en) accuse to charge with an offense, to cast blame on
(es) acusar to charge with an offense, to cast blame on, but also: to show signs of; to acknowledge
(es) acusarse to confess

h34
Posts:1425
Joined:2014-12-16, 20:15

Re: True false friends 2

Postby h34 » 2021-12-06, 17:01

(de) Ohr (≈[oːʁ]) ear ((sv) öra)
(sv) år (≈[oːɾ]) year ((de) Jahr)

(udm) ар year ((kv-kpv) во)
(kv-kpv) ар autumn ((udm) сӥзьыл)

(sv) höst autumn ((da) efterår)
(da) høst harvest ((sv) skörd)

Linguaphile
Posts:5358
Joined:2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: True false friends 2

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-12-13, 3:58

(en) destitute impoverished, poor
(es) destituido fired, dismissed

Linguaphile
Posts:5358
Joined:2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: True false friends 2

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-12-16, 14:26

(en) casually (1) informally (2) by chance, incidentally, irregularly
(es) casualmente by chance, incidentally, coincidentally
Again there is a lot of overlap but I would say that (1) is the most common usage in everyday English, and it is not used that way in Spanish.

(en) eventually after a delay; in the end, at last
(es) eventualmente possibly, potentially; occasionally, as needed

User avatar
Dormouse559
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:6939
Joined:2010-05-30, 0:06
Real Name:Matthew
Gender:male
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: True false friends 2

Postby Dormouse559 » 2021-12-16, 17:27

(en) despoil - to plunder, rob
(fr) dépouiller - to count votes; (literary) to plunder, rob, undress; etc.

These two aren't an immediately obvious pair, but if you know French-English sound correspondences, they're pretty clearly cognate. I noticed the false friendship with the noun form of the French, dépouillement.

Le Soir wrote:L’occasion de revenir sur les moments forts du jeu, jusqu’au dépouillement final.

It's a chance to revisit the highlights of the game, up to the final counting of votes.
N'hésite pas à corriger mes erreurs.

User avatar
Rí.na.dTeangacha
Posts:370
Joined:2020-12-31, 20:24
Gender:male
Location:Ceatharlach, Éire
Country:IEIreland (Éire / Ireland)

Re: True false friends 2

Postby Rí.na.dTeangacha » 2021-12-16, 20:02

Linguaphile wrote:(en) casually (1) informally (2) by chance, incidentally, irregularly
(es) casualmente by chance, incidentally, coincidentally
Again there is a lot of overlap but I would say that (1) is the most common usage in everyday English, and it is not used that way in Spanish.

(en) eventually after a delay; in the end, at last
(es) eventualmente possibly, potentially; occasionally, as needed


That reminded me:

(es) actualmente / (pt-br) atualmente - currently
(en-gb) actually
(pt-br)(ja) - Formerly Ciarán12

User avatar
Rí.na.dTeangacha
Posts:370
Joined:2020-12-31, 20:24
Gender:male
Location:Ceatharlach, Éire
Country:IEIreland (Éire / Ireland)

Re: True false friends 2

Postby Rí.na.dTeangacha » 2021-12-16, 20:50

(pt-br) regalia - a perk, privilege
(en-gb) regalia - the emblems or insignia of royalty, especially the crown, sceptre, and other ornaments used at a coronation.
(pt-br)(ja) - Formerly Ciarán12

Linguaphile
Posts:5358
Joined:2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: True false friends 2

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-12-16, 21:43

Rí.na.dTeangacha wrote:(pt-br) regalia - a perk, privilege
(en-gb) regalia - the emblems or insignia of royalty, especially the crown, sceptre, and other ornaments used at a coronation.

(es) regalía a perk, privilege; a royalty (i.e. payment to authors)

Linguaphile
Posts:5358
Joined:2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: True false friends 2

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-12-18, 17:28

(en) alimony money paid by an ex-partner to support the needs of a child
(es) al alimón jointly, together
Not only are these not true cognates, alimón (which would be the false friend here) isn't even a true noun, because it is used only in the phrase al alimón and can't be translated independently. It comes from a phrase used in a children's game (a la lima, al alimón although there are other variations), originating from Andalusian Arabic (alaa 'alima l'aalimuun), which means something like "hear ye, hear ye, let everyone know". The "jointly, together" meaning comes from the game, not from the original Arabic phrase.
While researching this, I discovered that it's also common for people to use a la lima, a la limón or a la lima, al limón as the phrase in the game (there is even a version of the game that involves oranges along with the lemons) and to write al alimón ("jointly, together") as a la limón. :mrgreen:

Linguaphile
Posts:5358
Joined:2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: True false friends 2

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-12-19, 18:22

Well it's not really (normally) a false friend but I just had a funny language-interference moment....
(es) tejas tiles, tejado tile roof, techo roof
(et) tehas factory, plant, mill
I was trying to write "mansard roof" (mansardkatus) in Estonian. What I wrote instead was "mansard factory" (mansardtehas), which is absurd (I don't think they're made in factories :mrgreen: ). It took me a moment to realize why. It was so subconscious that I can't be sure, but I think it was interference with the above Spanish words (at first I thought it was because of techo, but tejas and tejado are phonologically much closer [Spanish j ~ h], so it was probably either that or all of the above combined) which I must have mentally auto-corrected to the nearest Estonian match, tehas. (I think the fact that mansard is basically the same in all three languages didn't help either; too easy to accidentally slip into the wrong language at that point.)
I think a lot of my real-life language mix-ups tend to me along these lines: momentary confusions with words I otherwise know, which are based on loose connections and seem almost too silly to post, but at least they're genuine.
:silly:
Last edited by Linguaphile on 2021-12-19, 18:28, edited 1 time in total.

h34
Posts:1425
Joined:2014-12-16, 20:15

Re: True false friends 2

Postby h34 » 2021-12-19, 18:26

(mhr) кок two
(kv-kpv) кок leg

(mrj) ял leg
(mhr) ял village

User avatar
Bubulus
Posts:7647
Joined:2008-08-14, 2:55
Gender:male
Country:CACanada (Canada)

Re: True false friends 2

Postby Bubulus » 2021-12-20, 3:37

Linguaphile wrote:(en) alimony money paid by an ex-partner to support the needs of a child
(es) al alimón jointly, together
Not only are these not true cognates, alimón (which would be the false friend here) isn't even a true noun, because it is used only in the phrase al alimón and can't be translated independently. It comes from a phrase used in a children's game (a la lima, al alimón although there are other variations), originating from Andalusian Arabic (alaa 'alima l'aalimuun), which means something like "hear ye, hear ye, let everyone know". The "jointly, together" meaning comes from the game, not from the original Arabic phrase.
While researching this, I discovered that it's also common for people to use a la lima, a la limón or a la lima, al limón as the phrase in the game (there is even a version of the game that involves oranges along with the lemons) and to write al alimón ("jointly, together") as a la limón. :mrgreen:

Did you find information about those (Andalusian) Arabic phrases in a published source of any sort? This word has a Request for Etymology on Wiktionary and I'd love to fulfill it.

Linguaphile
Posts:5358
Joined:2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: True false friends 2

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-12-20, 16:19

Bubulus wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:(en) alimony money paid by an ex-partner to support the needs of a child
(es) al alimón jointly, together
Not only are these not true cognates, alimón (which would be the false friend here) isn't even a true noun, because it is used only in the phrase al alimón and can't be translated independently. It comes from a phrase used in a children's game (a la lima, al alimón although there are other variations), originating from Andalusian Arabic (alaa 'alima l'aalimuun), which means something like "hear ye, hear ye, let everyone know". The "jointly, together" meaning comes from the game, not from the original Arabic phrase.
While researching this, I discovered that it's also common for people to use a la lima, a la limón or a la lima, al limón as the phrase in the game (there is even a version of the game that involves oranges along with the lemons) and to write al alimón ("jointly, together") as a la limón. :mrgreen:

Did you find information about those (Andalusian) Arabic phrases in a published source of any sort? This word has a Request for Etymology on Wiktionary and I'd love to fulfill it.

I'm not sure whether it is a folk etymology or the true etymology, to be honest. I googled and found quite a few websites mentioning "alaa 'alima l'aalimuun" as the origin of the phrase in the game, but they are probably all copying each other. In Arabic there is عَلِمَ ​('alima), "to know", and l'aalimuun likely comes from the same root (there's لْعَٰلِمُونَ :?: knowledgeable people, intellectuals). If the phrase is Andalusian Arabic, it may be somewhat different, but it seems the idea of the phrase having to do with "knowing" is it least very likely. (Maybe someone who knows Arabic could jump in with their thoughts here.) Perhaps a better translation would be one I found just now online, "ea, sepan cuantos han de saber", which is something like "hey, may all those who should know, know", and that site says it's Classical Arabic, used more than a thousand years ago by Andalusian town criers (pregoneros).
But all of that is just exploring the Arabic phrase - whether or not the Spanish expression comes from it, I'm not sure. DRAE says that the phrase al alimón does indeed come from the game and that it comes from a mis-analysis of alalimón as two Spanish words, but for the etymology of alalimón, it just refers to alalá - an onomatopoeic expression and a type of song from Galicia. Personally, I find the Arabic etymology more plausible, but who knows? :wink:

This seems to me to be the most reliable source of those I found online:
Actas del X Congreso Internacional de Historia de la Lengua Española wrote:Pero lo que roza el milagro, dentro de lo inverosímil o, al menos, muy improbable en el contexto de estos mensajes de siglos pasados, que nos advierten del absurdo de creernos libres o alejados de nuestro segundo componente cultural, es lo que hemos descubierto muy recientemente en
una canción, esta vez no infantil, pero sí universalmente conocida en nuestro país, cuyo estribillo reza «A la lima, al alimón, que te vas a quedar soltera». ¿Qué hace ahí una lima, fruta o herramienta? ¿Qué es el alimón, del que los diccionarios nos dicen que es hacer algo entre dos personas, en particular, torear? Nuestros académicos, incluso algunos arabistas que lo han sido, aunque nunca simultáneamente lingüistas, no han podido jamás desentrañar tales misterios, por mala suerte o escasa convivencia con los niveles bajos de las cocinas de la cultura arábigo-islámica. Se trata sencillamente de la fórmula, en árabe clásico, como lo requería la función oficial, de los pregoneros andalusíes hace ya bastante más de mil años: alā ʿalima lʿālimūn ‘¡ea!, sepan cuantos han de saber…’. Lo confirma, por si alguien lo dudara, alguna otra canción popular como la que dice «alalimó, alalimó, que se rompió la fuente». Es obvio, por otra parte, que el juego de niñas llamado alalimón, en que actúan cogidas de la mano, repitiendo esta voz, con la que anuncian varias cosas, es el origen de la expresión «toreo al alimón», donde ya no se anuncia nada, y de ahí, el hacer algo al alimón, o sea, en pareja.
Actas del X Congreso Internacional de Historia de la Lengua Española (page 35)

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts:25540
Joined:2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name:Da
Location:Chicago
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: True false friends 2

Postby linguoboy » 2021-12-20, 17:13

(es) fresa strawberry
(ca) fresa roe, spawn
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Bubulus
Posts:7647
Joined:2008-08-14, 2:55
Gender:male
Country:CACanada (Canada)

Re: True false friends 2

Postby Bubulus » 2021-12-21, 4:40

Ah, interesting. Thank you!
Linguaphile wrote:(there's لْعَٰلِمُونَ :?: knowledgeable people, intellectuals)

I'm pretty sure it's العالمون al-‘ālimūn, the active participle of the verb عالم ‘alima you mention, in the definite plural. The phrase quoted seems to be ألا علم العالمون, with the interjection ألا. I guess whatever little I know of Arabic is coming in handy. :P


Return to “General Language Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests