Wanderlust support group 5

[linguoboy]

I do think names chosen by students, as was the case in my class, can have value in teaching an L2, since you don't have to worry at first about how to handle names that aren't native to that language.

Also, insofar as speaking a foreign language entails a certain loss of identity which can impair learning, there might be some paedagogical utility to encouraging learners to adopt a new foreign identity from the start. When it's not them making those funny sounds but "Fernand" or "小马" or "대문" or "Bob" or whoever, maybe they'll feel more empowered to have fun and make mistakes (and learn more in the process).

Given how widespread the practice is, there's probably been some attempt to study its impact, though perhaps nothing rigorous or peer-reviewed.

[Linguaphile]

I do think names chosen by students, as was the case in my class, can have value in teaching an L2, since you don't have to worry at first about how to handle names that aren't native to that language.

Yeah, but learning how to handle names that aren't native to that language is something the students with those names need to learn to do.

Also, insofar as speaking a foreign language entails a certain loss of identity which can impair learning, there might be some paedagogical utility to encouraging learners to adopt a new foreign identity from the start.

I think the "loss of identify" argument could be equally used to argue against the use of target-language names.

Given how widespread the practice is, there's probably been some attempt to study its impact, though perhaps nothing rigorous or peer-reviewed.

Quick search turned up a thesis studying exactly that: Target-Language Names in the Spanish as a Second Language Classroom
and lots of opinion pieces such as
Opinion - Pro: Should Teachers Assignment Target-Language Names?
Opinion - Con: Why Spanish Classrooms Should Stop Using Spanish Names
It's really one of those you-either-love-it-or-you-hate-it practices.

[Dormouse559]

Yeah, but learning how to handle names that aren't native to that language is something the students with those names need to learn to do.

Does Linguaphile often talk about themself in the third person? Outside of “My name is …” I’d say other people are usually the ones using a person’s name.

I think the "loss of identify" argument could be equally used to argue against the use of target-language names.

I don’t know that it’s as bad as you’re implying. In my class, we chose our names, so they were still expressions of identity, just … Frencher.

[Linguaphile]

Yeah, but learning how to handle names that aren't native to that language is something the students with those names need to learn to do.

Does Linguaphile often talk about themself in the third person? Outside of “My name is …” I’d say other people are usually the ones using a person’s name.

Yes other people are usually the ones using it, but the language learner needs to get used to that, too. They need to get used to hearing how speakers of the foreign language say his or her name (they might tend to pronounce it differently, or shorten it to a nickname themselves, etc), and besides that, often they will be asked to repeat it, spell it, sometimes even to adapt it (say it slowly, modify pronunciation to fit the language's phonology, shorten it to a nickname, whatever) by speakers of the language they're learning. It's good to practice that, and if you're using a name in class that isn't yours and is already familiar to speakers of the language you're learning, you don't get that opportunity. Unless you really do plan on using that "foreign language" name in the real world when speaking that language, too (which is what many Chinese speakers really do).

I'm curious: is this a common practice in language classes outside the United States? (Not including Chinese-speaking countries in this or other countries where students might actually use those same names in real life when speaking the language.) LIke in when learning English in Europe, for example, would students ever be given (or choose for themselves) "English names" to use in the English class? Like "in real life I'm Pierre or Anton or Hans but in English class my teacher and classmates call me Kenneth?" Just curious because I really don't know. It would be the equivalent but it sounds odd to me because of course in English-speaking countries we do have people with those names too.

I think the "loss of identify" argument could be equally used to argue against the use of target-language names.

I don’t know that it’s as bad as you’re implying. In my class, we chose our names, so they were still expressions of identity, just … Frencher.

Yeah, I think that's where the love-it-or-hate-it comes in. Some people really like it. I don't because of the experiences I've had with the names being imposed by the teacher and with it being used in a majority-language context (English classes in an English-speaking country) where it emphasizes the "loss of identity" issue in a context that tends to de-value the native-language identity already. But the articles I posted indicate I'm not alone in my dislike. Another issue is the one mentioned in the "con" article I posted: a lot of languages now use names that aren't native to that language. Let's say I'm Hispanic but don't speak Spanish and my name is Jacqueline and I'm taking a Spanish class. Now my Spanish teacher wants me to choose a "Spanish" name because Jacqueline isn't a "Spanish" name, but wait, I'm Hispanic and I'm named after my Mexican grandmother, so..... Where I live things like that are really likely to happen. (It could happen anywhere though, and with any language, since many people do study the languages of their family's heritage.)
My thought is just that if some learners are going to hate it, then it's not a good practice for language classes in general, even if other learners enjoy it. I think the solution is to either not do it, or give students the option of choosing a foreign language name or keeping their own name. Even though I didn't mind my German and French names all that much, if given the choice, I'd have kept my own name.

[Iván]

Xiaoma's Mandarin is just average, I mean better than most learners, but still not "shocking".

What level would say he's at? Also, what would the name Xiaoma be in English?

You can watch the video below to find out what level he is at.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey0gJvLO15c

[linguoboy]

I really liked her analysis. It felt very balanced, taking into account the hyperbole of the clickbait titles while still highlighting the points she thinks are especially salient for learners. 感謝分享！

[Naava]

LIke in when learning English in Europe, for example, would students ever be given (or choose for themselves) "English names" to use in the English class? Like "in real life I'm Pierre or Anton or Hans but in English class my teacher and classmates call me Kenneth?" Just curious because I really don't know. It would be the equivalent but it sounds odd to me because of course in English-speaking countries we do have people with those names too.

We did! Our teacher gave us a list of English names to choose from when the English lessons began in primary school. I took it very seriously and kept asking mum to read the names to me because I didn't know how to pronounce them yet. (She didn't really know either but it didn't stop me!) It was so exciting to get to choose a new name for yourself, and that's why I was quite disappointed when we just told the class which name each of us had chosen the next time we met, but after that our new names were never mentioned again.

[Yasna]

I really liked her analysis. It felt very balanced, taking into account the hyperbole of the clickbait titles while still highlighting the points she thinks are especially salient for learners. 感謝分享！

She's also done one of these analysis videos about her husband, who IMO is one of the most impressive non-native Mandarin speakers on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcwIxpy1K78

[mōdgethanc]

Kinda waffling on if I should learn Portuguese. It's one of the world's biggest languages and would be pretty easy, but there's also the problem that I don't like it that much (feel guilty about that, but it's true) and should spend that time on Spanish instead. Also waffling on Korean as always, and for a minute earlier today I thought "hey Swahili is cool" but don't think I will ever learn it.

[Car]

I'm curious: is this a common practice in language classes outside the United States?

When I started learning English in 5th grade, our teacher did it for some of us, but definitely not all of us. I have no idea for how long he actually used those names, if at all. I've never seen that done anywhere else, but when we started French, we already were in 7th grade, so maybe a bit old by then? But then none of the Chinese I got to know by first name (whether they came to study here or grew up here) had Western names (actually, when a Taiwanese internet friend studying in Canada used it ages ago, I was wondering "What's a Western name?" - I had wondered why a guy from Taiwan was called Sean)-

[mōdgethanc]

Cantonese, why must you torment me? You know I don't have time for a side chick who's as difficult as you.

[Linguaphile]

LIke in when learning English in Europe, for example, would students ever be given (or choose for themselves) "English names" to use in the English class? Like "in real life I'm Pierre or Anton or Hans but in English class my teacher and classmates call me Kenneth?" Just curious because I really don't know. It would be the equivalent but it sounds odd to me because of course in English-speaking countries we do have people with those names too.

We did! Our teacher gave us a list of English names to choose from when the English lessons began in primary school. I took it very seriously and kept asking mum to read the names to me because I didn't know how to pronounce them yet. (She didn't really know either but it didn't stop me!) It was so exciting to get to choose a new name for yourself, and that's why I was quite disappointed when we just told the class which name each of us had chosen the next time we met, but after that our new names were never mentioned again.

I'm curious: is this a common practice in language classes outside the United States?

When I started learning English in 5th grade, our teacher did it for some of us, but definitely not all of us. I have no idea for how long he actually used those names, if at all. I've never seen that done anywhere else, but when we started French, we already were in 7th grade, so maybe a bit old by then? But then none of the Chinese I got to know by first name (whether they came to study here or grew up here) had Western names (actually, when a Taiwanese internet friend studying in Canada used it ages ago, I was wondering "What's a Western name?" - I had wondered why a guy from Taiwan was called Sean)-

Thanks for the responses! Here, the names were used even in high school. Maybe this is because it's not common to study foreign languages in the lower grades here so if they are ever going to do it, it's probably going to be in high school. They used the names for the full year (even multiple years, for those of us who continued into more advanced classes, because it was with the same teacher ).

[mōdgethanc]

I had a sudden urge to learn the Thai script which was quelled rather fast by looking again at how complicated it is and how it needs a whole bunch of tables and charts to explain how it works. No thanks.

[dEhiN]

I don't because of the experiences I've had with the names being imposed by the teacher and with it being used in a majority-language context (English classes in an English-speaking country) where it emphasizes the "loss of identity" issue in a context that tends to de-value the native-language identity already.
[...]
My thought is just that if some learners are going to hate it, then it's not a good practice for language classes in general, even if other learners enjoy it. I think the solution is to either not do it, or give students the option of choosing a foreign language name or keeping their own name. Even though I didn't mind my German and French names all that much, if given the choice, I'd have kept my own name.

I think you and Dormouse were arguing different sides to the whole thing. It seems like your experiences were that the teacher(s) forced it on you, whether through assignment of the foreign names, or letting you pick your own but specifying that you had to pick another name. It seems like Dormouse's experience was more along the lines of what you propose as a solution - having the option to do so. (Though I could be wrong: maybe they had to pick a name and were just given the autonomy in what name they used).

I can say that here in Canada, I don't believe that practice was ever used. We started French in grade 4, and that was never done. Even my partner, who went to French Immersion for grade school (read: pre-high school), the most the teachers did were try to pronounce the names with a French accent. But from what she recalls, the teachers never changed the names or asked the students to pick different names. I took French throughout high school as well, and same thing - the teachers would use our actual names, perhaps only changing the pronunciation depending on the name to utilise French phonology.

I had a sudden urge to learn the Thai script which was quelled rather fast by looking again at how complicated it is and how it needs a whole bunch of tables and charts to explain how it works. No thanks.

If I remember what Vijay told me once, I think the script is so complicated because there's a lot of marking for tones and things that the original Brahmi script - from which the Thai script derives - didn't have. And, instead of using new symbols (à la diacritics in European languages) to mark tones, the existing script symbols were used. I also seem to remember that another factor is that the script still marks for historic aspects of the phonology that are no longer in vogue.

[vijayjohn]

Linguistic Twitter actually had a whole argument about assigning names to students in foreign-language classes not so long ago with some linguists saying that making students pick Spanish names, Chinese names, etc. is cultural appropriation and making ESL students pick English names is Anglocentrism.

I have been wanderlusting for Chinese.

Do it!

That's what I just told her to do in Chinese!

But if she's wanderlusting for Chinese, chances are she doesn't know any Chinese or at least not to a high level, so telling her to do it in Chinese might defeat the purpose, wouldn't it?

It could, or it could inspire her to look it up. Idk.

Have you considered the possibility that I simply got one word wrong when quoting from memory a book I read three decades ago?

No, I didn't, because your quote had every appearance of having either been copy-pasted or copied directly from the book. Anyway, the actual passage in the translation is apparently "When I was in school, if you knew German, you never graduated. You just spent your life knowing German. Nowadays I think that happens with Chinese." This leaves me none the wiser. If the two instances of sapere were translated with the verb "to study", it would make perfect sense to me. But as is I don't know what the author is trying to convey.

He's saying when he was in school, you'd never graduate if you learned German. As of the time he wrote this, he thought you'd never graduate if you learned Chinese.

[mōdgethanc]

If I remember what Vijay told me once, I think the script is so complicated because there's a lot of marking for tones and things that the original Brahmi script - from which the Thai script derives - didn't have. And, instead of using new symbols (à la diacritics in European languages) to mark tones, the existing script symbols were used. I also seem to remember that another factor is that the script still marks for historic aspects of the phonology that are no longer in vogue.

Yes that's right. There are diacritics for tones, but also a lot of it is that consonants that once sounded different now help show what the tones are as well, and also some consonants are just there for Sanskrit loanwords but they don't sound any different now (if they ever did). This is a lot like what Punjabi does with tones only more complicated.

[vijayjohn]

I think a lot of the consonants correspond to sounds in Sanskrit that really were different at some point in time.

I also think Teach Yourself Thai honestly does a very good job of teaching the script. Basically, you just have to learn it in chunks. Colloquial Cambodian similarly does a good job.

[Linguaphile]

Xiaoma's Mandarin is just average, I mean better than most learners, but still not "shocking".

What level would say he's at? Also, what would the name Xiaoma be in English?

This video showed up in my feed and seems relevant here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kxfTGbSfqA

[Vlürch]

LIke in when learning English in Europe, for example, would students ever be given (or choose for themselves) "English names" to use in the English class? Like "in real life I'm Pierre or Anton or Hans but in English class my teacher and classmates call me Kenneth?" Just curious because I really don't know. It would be the equivalent but it sounds odd to me because of course in English-speaking countries we do have people with those names too.

We did! Our teacher gave us a list of English names to choose from when the English lessons began in primary school. I took it very seriously and kept asking mum to read the names to me because I didn't know how to pronounce them yet. (She didn't really know either but it didn't stop me!) It was so exciting to get to choose a new name for yourself, and that's why I was quite disappointed when we just told the class which name each of us had chosen the next time we met, but after that our new names were never mentioned again.

Yeah, in elementary school English class on the first day the teacher made us pick "English names" that started with the same letter as our real names, which really annoyed me because I didn't like either of the exactly two options she gave me. The entire class was yelling at me because I didn't want to be called by either name... later I learned they were technically an Irish and a Scottish (or Japanese...) name, which I didn't know at the time and I'm not sure if the teacher did either.

In case anyone cares, the options she gave me were Kevin and Ken (not even Kenneth) since my real name starts with K. Most kids got more than two options, but with a name that starts with a letter that no actual English English names start with... well, yeah, after a couple of minutes of screeching she forced Kevin on me. Thankfully she started calling everyone by our real names soon afterwards, I think?

Thinking back, it's just funny. I mean, there's that Irish youtuber called Kevin whose channel name is "Call Me Kevin" and the first time I got one of his videos recommended I was so fucking triggered (that's a joke, it's not like being called Kevin against my will was actually traumatising but you know). Also the Kevin here on Unilang, etc. Every time I come across someone with the name "Kevin" for the first time, I think back to how when I was a little kid that teacher tried to Kevinise me.





...and somehow my solution for communication online was to pick a name that everyone struggles with.

Except strangely enough, when voice chatting with English-speakers, no one has ever actually struggled with it! Just asked if they're pronouncing it right. It's only on language forums that Americans have said "I'd pronounce it /vluɹk/" or whatever, but everyone's said it surprisingly close to the intended /vlyrt͡ʃ/ regardless of whether they see it written "Vlürch" or "Vlyrch". Eh, whatever, kind of a tangent.

~

Anyway, I haven't really been actively trying to learn any languages anymore for a while so what little I learned of any languages has been slipping away. Currently I do kinda feel like wanting to learn a little bit of Welsh, which probably counts as a wanderlust even though I'm not trying to learn anything right now, since obviously I'm never actually going to be learning Welsh.

As for why Welsh, it's because I watched the film Saint Maud and it had a little bit in it.

[vijayjohn]

Well, I'd probably pronounce your username correctly now since you'd already explained before how you meant for it to be pronounced!