But then I found this
(quoted below) about it.
Hey, that's great! Good to see some other proof than just a few sentences in Wikipedia.
Still, I do think Lönnrot must have expected it to become a commonly-used form or hoped it would. It wasn't rejected until the 1890's, after Lönnrot's death.
Hard to say. Did he use it anywhere else than in Kalevala? If he didn't, it could be eventive fit the metre better than conditional and potential, or that he just liked it and thought no one would complain they didn't know what it was if he added it to a book that was already written in a language that sounded unfamiliar to many *. Maybe he wished people would read Kalevala and copy the eventive and start using it. Maybe he thought it would become part of the standard language. There isn't really a way to know unless we can find a source where he himself would confirm what he thought.
* I mean, the Southwestern dialects had been the basis of written language before the 1800s and the battle of the dialects. A text based on Eastern dialects and Karelian was definitely different from what had been written so far.
Kirje, joka valitettavasti on seuran arkistosta kadonnut, herätti pöytäkirjan mukaan vilkkaan keskustelun.
Honestly these guys were always happy to fight about anything and everything.
Minä eitin niin olevan
I wonder if this was another thing Kilpinen was promoting. I mean it was
coined by him...
Ja siten on eittämättä joka muoto ja sana kielessä alkunsa saanut, että joku henkilö sen on sepustanut.
Ooh I guess I've just passed some "are you a 19th century Finnish linguist?" test by reading this because I'd really want to argue with him now!
»Hra F. Ahlmanein viime lukukaudella tekemän ehdotuksen, että nämät konsessiivi & konditionaalin sekamuodot otettaisiin käytäntöön, seura vaitiololla tappoi.»
I also like the way they used language back then. "We killed his proposition", that's the spirit!
Vlürch wrote:I mean, the generational thing is mostly just old people being bitter about young people using words that they don't use (or not using words that they do use) . . .
That's probably a Helsinki thing then, but of course we should make a proper study if we wanted to be sure. Thank god I'm not looking for a thesis topic right now or else I might be stupid enough to try to study this! I can imagine how much I'd cry while transcribing interviews... And yes I would make my own interviews instead of using corpus or something because I'm always looking for ways to make my life harder than it has to be.
. . .she couldn't understand anything anyone was saying, like the dialect there was so different and the accents were so thick that it might as well have been a completely different language
I don't think this is an example of generations struggling to understand each other, but speakers of different dialects having difficulties understanding each other. I mean, I've
had to change my speech in Tampere because people (who were the same age as me) kept staring at me with blank faces when they didn't understand what I was saying, and S. Ostrobothnian isn't even that far off from how people speak in Tampere... I can imagine what it'd be like if you had lived in South Finland most of your life, and then suddenly be exposed to Savonian.
At least the way WW2 was taught when I was in school was, well, not accurate... it was like "we were neutral and totally the good guys! what do you mean we were an Axis country? the Nazis occupied us and we fought against them just as much if not more as we fought alongside them, and when we fought alongside them it was TOTALLY separate! we had NOTHING in common with them ideologically! also Mannerheim did nothing wrong" but I guess every country has nationalism problems in history education.
Please keep in mind that your personal experiences are not exactly trustworthy source if we're talking about education in an entire
country. "I've heard things" and "it seems to me" are not very convincing arguments either because we tend to notice whatever supports our own beliefs and ignore things that would contradict it. But maybe you're happy to hear that the situation with teens isn't quite as bad as you think? I don't know if you know but I'm a teacher so I've got like an insider view to the world of education in Finland, how kids are doing nowadays, what kind of problems there are, how teachers and other people in the field of education have reacted to it, what kind of discussions they're having etc. Of course that's also filtered through my own expectations, ideas, and beliefs, but I dare say I have had a larger sample of schools, their students, and discussions of the problems the schools and the students have than you.
This is getting a bit off topic so I'll leave it here, but I just wanted to say that the situation isn't quite as hopeless as how you painted it.
Linguaphile wrote:The eventive mood issue in Finnish is turning out to be rather fascinating. See what I found:
Great job again, Linguaphile!
Linguaphile wrote:Which if I understand correctly is basically saying that the most interesting of Lönnrot's constructions is the eventive, which he thought he had observed (invented? ) in Veps
means noticed, found, or observed in this context.
Linguaphile wrote:So I'm not sure whether this is support for the idea that the form was entirely invented (i.e. Lönnrot was quite aware that it did not exist in Finnish) or support for the idea that it wasn't entirely invented (i.e. it was taken from a neighboring language that did use it, at least as Lönnrot understood it). I'm kinda glad it wasn't just invented out of thin air but made from something that was actually used elsewhere, although I'm not sure that Lönnrot was correct about its usage in Veps. Its absence from the corpus makes me wonder. Guess I'll have to do more research....
If you do, I'll be very interested to hear what you've found!
(Personally, I still believe he just thought it sounds cool and maybe excotic. Kalevala was written in the time of Karelianism after all. I'm also very doubtful it's usage in Veps wasn't just a mistake made by Lönnrot. Besides, wasn't Kilpinen the one who said he had invented it himself before Lönnrot?)